My first top down fire and it sucked

[Highbeam]

Thanks guys. I am starting to see that my biggest error was taking a normal bottom up fire and flipping it. This meant insufficient kindling for the method to work out. I also criss crossed the full length kindling and splits in an effort to provide plenty of air and channels for fire to migrate down. I thought that would help! I have no problem with bottom up, but like many of us here I am always willing to try a new trick especially one that so many people like and that costs me nothing to try. Maybe the top downers like it so much better because their bottom up fires work so poorly?

I had seen the recent woodstock top down thread and tried to mimmick that. He had big splits on the bottom and what looked like a normal load above that. I haven't watched Vanessa's video for more than a year!

I also expect the start up load of wood to last a few hours instead of being a primer. This could be due to my softwood and that I don't need a coal base to light the medium to large splits.

 

[Jags]

I also expect the start up load of wood to last a few hours instead of being a primer. This could be due to my softwood and that I don't need a coal base to light the medium to large splits.

Yep, Uber dry hardwoods have the same effect.

 

[dvellone]

I had to try a top down fire in my castine after reading so much about it and it did work pretty well. The biggest difference I noticed was that I could close the door tight and the fire took off fine. Normally I need to leave the door cracked a bit until the draft quickens. That pile of newspapers did invigorate the draft. But I did have to use quite a bit more paper than bottom up. When I tried to skimp on the paper the fire didn't take as well. Seems like a good method for the castine when you don't have the time to sit nearby waiting to close the door, or when your memory is weakening and you might leave the door cracked open while you get distracted by something else. Not that my memory is weakening, but...what was I saying?

 

[Slow1]

I had seen the recent woodstock top down thread and tried to mimmick that. He had big splits on the bottom and what looked like a normal load above that. I haven't watched Vanessa's video for more than a year!

Was that my "photo essay" that you are referencing? If so then if you look at it again perhaps you may notice that I didn't leave much space between the splits really. As to the question of using more kindling - I'm not sure as it has been a while since I have done a bottom up fire. Perhaps I do use more - I do believe I use more smaller kindling than I would if I were doing a bottom-up with the super cedar as a starter. I have not done a bottom up fire in the Fireview though so it is hard to say what would be needed for me.

I do use my normal size splits to start as I don't view this as a "just to build a bed of coals" fire. Rather I tend to leave it burning for several hours before re-loading (in that case I only went 2 1/2 hours but that was an exception because I didn't want someone else to have to tend the fire during the day). Often times this year the initial load has been my only load for the day - i.e. I don't open the door again until I light the next fire 24 or more hours later.

The result of all this is that I do end up stacked to the top of the firebox for the most part by time I light up. The kindling does burn away pretty quickly.

My wood (all of it) is VERY dry - the big splits are at least 3 years old and sit in the house for many days before being put in the stove - just not burning enough to rotate the supply through fast enough. I only bring wood in every couple weeks at this point. I think you said your wood is pretty ideal as well, but wanted to make this point in case others are looking at this thread - I seriously doubt this would work well with marginal wood.

Next time you try, how about some pictures of your stack and how it goes? Good learning experience for all here...

 

[Fsappo]

One firestarter on the bottom a few small splits next, pile the big logs on top, light the starter, draft open, come back after the morning coffee and turn the air down. Never fails to start and I dont need to spend 5 minutes tying knots and building a bridge.

Sometimes though, when I drive, I take route 11 instead of interstate 81 because it's different and I like to be different...just not in the morning when I'm lighting my stove

 

[yanksforever]

You didn't pay attention to directions!! :cheese: Six newspaper knots from single sheet newspaper, rolled up corner to corner and tied in a knot.
Then put them on top...now try it again or it will be one day in detention!

 

[daveswoodhauler]

One firestarter on the bottom a few small splits next, pile the big logs on top, light the starter, draft open, come back after the morning coffee and turn the air down. Never fails to start and I dont need to spend 5 minutes tying knots and building a bridge.

Sometimes though, when I drive, I take route 11 instead of interstate 81 because it's different and I like to be different...just not in the morning when I'm lighting my stove

+10 on this method...not to say top down doesn't work...I just ain't got 30 minutes to get the stove cooking every morning....this way I get the blower to kick on the insert after 10 minutes.

Also, I buy the little firestarter logs from walmart...and use a piece about 2 inches or so....one box lasts most of the winter.

 

[fossil]

I didn't mean to offend you folks by saying that the top down method sucks. The discussion I hoped we would have, and mostly are having, is that my attempt at it sucked and where did I go wrong? Am I alone? Should I even bother trying again? I wouldn't have put forth so much detail about my attempt if I wasn't looking for help on where it went wrong.

Well, Highbeam, I apologize if I misinterpreted your OP...but your last words in that post were:

"You can have your top down fires, I’ll start mine from the bottom like they teach the boy scouts."

I certainly didn't read anything in there asking for tips on how you might make it work. Sounded to me as though you tried it once, it didn't work, so you were washing your hands of the whole concept. I have to add that the way I read it didn't sound like the Highbeam with whom I've become familiar. Anyone who has some of the most beautiful and perfectly constructed wood stacks on the face of the planet can't be a "giver-upper" kinda woodburner. Let's do the secret Tau Beta Pi handshake and move on. Rick

 

[Fsappo]

One firestarter on the bottom a few small splits next, pile the big logs on top, light the starter, draft open, come back after the morning coffee and turn the air down. Never fails to start and I dont need to spend 5 minutes tying knots and building a bridge.

Sometimes though, when I drive, I take route 11 instead of interstate 81 because it's different and I like to be different...just not in the morning when I'm lighting my stove

+10 on this method...not to say top down doesn't work...I just ain't got 30 minutes to get the stove cooking every morning....this way I get the blower to kick on the insert after 10 minutes.

Also, I buy the little firestarter logs from walmart...and use a piece about 2 inches or so....one box lasts most of the winter.

yup, same here. 5 bucks worth of starters last me the year

 

[Highbeam]

It's hard to be sarcastic or subtle or even silly with the written word for me. I don't use enough smileys I guess. I'll try again with the top down as I don't like to quit until I'm good and ready. Tau Beta pi shake done.

Yes slow1, it was your photo essay that I so closely tried to mimic. I don't watch much canadian TV and your photos were my inspiration. I do like that fireview.

 

[Fsappo]

It's hard to be sarcastic or subtle or even silly with the written word for me. I don't use enough smileys I guess. I'll try again with the top down as I don't like to quit until I'm good and ready. Tau Beta pi shake done.

Yes slow1, it was your photo essay that I so closely tried to mimic. I don't watch much canadian TV and your photos were my inspiration. I do like that fireview.

Hold up! Canada has TVs?...what the heck. Thats scarier than bein attacked by a Coyote!

 

[Hurricane]

I never had problems starting fires bottom up. Just had to keep the door cracked open for a while and on warmer days I would get puffs of smoke in the house. I have not had that happen with top down fires yet. That is why I like them.

 

[fbelec]

to each his or her own yes. and to me it depends on the stove also i do the top down in my defiant, but i do bottom up in the hearthstone 2. it's easier to do bottom up starts in the h 2 because of the design. i rake the ashes put all the coals together propane the coals for 30 seconds close the door for loading on the side then open the ash door. the primary air in that stove comes from the center grate air coming up from the ash door. so i get a instant small coal bed in 2 to 3 minutes then the kindling then splits. and the firebox is to small. top down does tend to be slow to heat the stove down to the bottom even tho the top is 500. and in the h2 it's a little slow to begin with because of it's stone. so i do bottom up to get it going as fast as the stones will let me.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Rick, I love you

In a forum/BB kinda way. Not our BB, just to clarify, although I am tres fond of our BB.

Get in line, honey. ;-)

 

[gyrfalcon]

to each his or her own yes. and to me it depends on the stove also i do the top down in my defiant, but i do bottom up in the hearthstone 2. it's easier to do bottom up starts in the h 2 because of the design. i rake the ashes put all the coals together propane the coals for 30 seconds close the door for loading on the side then open the ash door. the primary air in that stove comes from the center grate air coming up from the ash door. so i get a instant small coal bed in 2 to 3 minutes then the kindling then splits. and the firebox is to small. top down does tend to be slow to heat the stove down to the bottom even tho the top is 500. and in the h2 it's a little slow to begin with because of it's stone. so i do bottom up to get it going as fast as the stones will let me.

You "propane" the coals? What does that mean? I ask because with a tiny stove, I have to do a cold start every morning, and I'm semi-maddened by the fussiness of matches and paper, or even Supercedars. What propane device do you use?

 

[gyrfalcon]

Thanks guys. I am starting to see that my biggest error was taking a normal bottom up fire and flipping it. This meant insufficient kindling for the method to work out. I also criss crossed the full length kindling and splits in an effort to provide plenty of air and channels for fire to migrate down. I thought that would help! I have no problem with bottom up, but like many of us here I am always willing to try a new trick especially one that so many people like and that costs me nothing to try. Maybe the top downers like it so much better because their bottom up fires work so poorly?

I had seen the recent woodstock top down thread and tried to mimmick that. He had big splits on the bottom and what looked like a normal load above that. I haven't watched Vanessa's video for more than a year!

I also expect the start up load of wood to last a few hours instead of being a primer. This could be due to my softwood and that I don't need a coal base to light the medium to large splits.

Highbeam, for whatever it's worth, I'm really relieved to see you confess to being unable to ge this to work right. Neither can I. I've tried it repeatedly and had the same results, with good dry hardwoods and with the durn paper twists. I have zero problemsif I pay attention to what I'm doing (not always the case first thing in the morning!) getting a good hot fire going bottom-up without having to keep the door open or closely supervising it, but the results of my top-down attempts-- yech. And as you say, it's not easy to recover from it when it fails. I have a tiny firebox and pretty close to perfect draft, so I guess I shouldn't care as long as my bottom-up starts work just fine for me. But like everybody else here, I keep looking for ideas to improve the technique. I just don't think it really works the same way in every stove/inst all combination.

 

[boostnut]

I think Gyrfalcon nailed it when he said "I just don’t think it really works the same way in every stove/inst all combination." I too have tried it a number of times in my Jotul insert with no luck. I stand by my original statement (and the statement that got this thread started), the top-down starting method sucks. Heat rises, right? Start the fire on the bottom and let it do its thing. Just started one in the insert. Went from room temp (66 this morning) to just over 500 with the blower kicking on in 14 minutes. Can you really get it done much faster with a top down? If not, whats the advantage?

 

[LLigetfa]

Can you really get it done much faster with a top down? If not, whats the advantage?

Faster, no. Less smoke, less fiddling with the door, less fouling of the cold glass, probably less hassle if done right.

 

[Ratman]

OMG...
You have not seen the EPA Vanessa & John Video?
Were you out that day?

She will read your rant and since you haven’t seen the video you will not know your only escape will be to offer her poplar and call yourself John.
She will later appear to you in an apparition.

Pray for forgiveness now!

 

[fbelec]

to each his or her own yes. and to me it depends on the stove also i do the top down in my defiant, but i do bottom up in the hearthstone 2. it's easier to do bottom up starts in the h 2 because of the design. i rake the ashes put all the coals together propane the coals for 30 seconds close the door for loading on the side then open the ash door. the primary air in that stove comes from the center grate air coming up from the ash door. so i get a instant small coal bed in 2 to 3 minutes then the kindling then splits. and the firebox is to small. top down does tend to be slow to heat the stove down to the bottom even tho the top is 500. and in the h2 it's a little slow to begin with because of it's stone. so i do bottom up to get it going as fast as the stones will let me.

You "propane" the coals? What does that mean? I ask because with a tiny stove, I have to do a cold start every morning, and I'm semi-maddened by the fussiness of matches and paper, or even Supercedars. What propane device do you use?

that means i rake the ash, put aside the unburnt coals, then put the coals in a pile near the primary air outlet. on your stove it might be that dog house shape. in my h2 it's the whole bottom grate. so i pile the coals, then break out a small propane torch and get as much of the coal edges glowing shut the side door and open the ash door. it's like having lungs the size of your car and blowing on the coals. it only takes 2 minutes. at 2 minutes i look at the glass on the front door and it looks like i have a high pressure sodium light (street light) turned on inside the stove. throw on a few pieces of kindling or small wood and it's off to the races. my h2 has a small fire box also. that's why i do a bottom up start in that stove. but i have done a top down start in it. it does work. the idea behind a top down start is.......... the fire in the stove emits less smoke while it gets going and while it heats up the chimney for prime time. the top down start is a great tool for people that are not running a epa stove because the less smoke the better. my top down start produces less smoke if not almost zero smoke for the first hour, and as the primary air gets shut down it will start it's smoking. alot more smoke than when it's starting up. that's the advantage. my defiant has 14 inches in height give or take 2 inches so i have plenty of room. when i was doing bottom starts in that stove i'd pile paper then kindling then small splits. as soon as the paper would burn the kindling would fall all over the place and sometimes i have to start again. but no problem doing a bottom up start in the hearthstone 2. not that top down can't be done in the h2 but like yourself it's a pain because of a small fire box.

 

[Highbeam]

OMG...
You have not seen the EPA Vanessa & John Video?
Were you out that day?

She will read your rant and since you haven’t seen the video you will not know your only escape will be to offer her poplar and call yourself John.
She will later appear to you in an apparition.

Pray for forgiveness now!

LOL. I saw it, it was awhile ago though and I remember it being good for an early 1980s "this old house" type of episode. I then went through many of John's info columns and his site.

I'd get a kick out of her response to my "rant" as you say. I suspect there is a PC answer along the lines of different strokes for different folks.

 

[firefighterjake]

I was a traditional fire starter most of last year . . . first few attempts at top down fires did not go well . . . did not see what the big deal was . . . now having done the top down fire (or a variation) I do not think I would go back. It seems as though my top down fires result in me using one match . . . the other way for some reason has me using up three matches and going through a lot more newspaper. However, this is what works for me . . . if something else works for someone else I say they should stick with it until or unless they are ready to try a different method.

 

[LLigetfa]

What I noticed with my one attempt at a top down, was that the paper I used just turned black and kept its shape which impeded the airflow. I had to bust up the blackened paper with the poker and try again.

When I do bottom up with the same paper, the burning kin'lin above the paper helps to burn more completely and disintegrate. A variation might be to put some kin'lin on top of the paper rather than have the paper topmost.

I've always hated burning paper. It leaves lots of black flecks on top of the snow. Good thing my chimney cap doesn't have a screen cuz it would probably get plugged with the paper crap. I think a top down with paper would send more big black paper flakes up the flue.

That said, I'm all pumped up about what I've heard about Super Cedars and eagerly await my free sample so I can take another stab at this top down stuff. I think that will be the right mix.

 

[jadm]

With this topic coming up again this year and after seeing photos of people successfully building a top down fire.....I decided to give it a go again although my attempts (I tried several times.) last year were a disaster. Nothing catching, once it did taking ages to get heat out into the room and I still got smoke out of chimney.

I put large rounds on bottom and smaller on top which I topped off with twigs from our ash tree (Everything seasoned for 2 years...). I stuck in several pieces of pine board the size of fat wood and I put in a couple of pieces of fat wood. I topped it off with a super cedar.

It lit and slowly twigs etc. lit but I still got smoke out of the stack - not tons but it was there. Took ages for logs to catch and ages before I could shut down primary air. I had to mess with it several times.

Took ages to get to 600* with air all the way open and still smoked as I began to shut air down - flames would go out if I tried to go below 1/2 open...

Back to my bottom ups that hit 600* in less than 1/2 hour, that smoke a tad bit in the beginning and can have the air shut 3/4ths of the way down after about 45min....

Maybe I'll try again next year....but I kinda doubt it.

 

[bmwloco]

Wow!

I am on my second "top down" burn on my old VC Resolute, and I have to say, I am sold on it now.

The first time didn't go so well, but the second and third (and now forth) has been great. I get longer burns, and don't have to stoke the box as much.

I put two good split logs down, then put down some tidily tied NY Times, then cross kindling on top. Light it and close the box... that's about it. I just added a big log on top, now it's humming along at 500F. Good old Resolute, good top down fire!