My first 650 miles with a BEV

[SpaceBus]

Any way the more I learn about my Tesla the more hesitant I am to recommend any Tesla as replacement for an ICE for someone who doesn’t want to think about the vehicle and just get in every day and have it drive. Case in point the X and S do not have adjustable camber suspension. And that’s probably fine except they have adjustable ride hieght. And that’s probably ok but they really messed up drive shaft angles for the front motor and wheels. So you can lower the suspension save the driveshafts and eat rear tires at a crazy pace or raise the suspension and eat front half shafts.


Evan

This is an absurd oversight. Even without adjustable ride height, you still need camber adjustment, even if it's just shimming mounting points like old cars.

 

[EbS-P]

I think EV's only make sense at their current astronomical prices if you do have solar, especially if you don't drive much. The car becomes both transportation and storage for your excess solar power. This gives you the ability to use the car to back feed the house when you are not producing and not needing to go anywhere. Those car battery packs, especially on an F150 or big pack Tesla can easily power a house for quite a while, and have the output to run serious appliances like the well pump. I don't think we will get a BEV until we have both a sizeable garage and solar.

Fords two way system needs an 80A circuit upping the odds you need 320A service if you have a regular sized all electric house. I’m sure it could be hacked but doing anything to void a warranty doesn’t make sense. The tech will come around. Tesla want to sell you a power wall. So I don’t see the two for teslas any time soon.

 

[SpaceBus]

Fords two way system needs an 80A circuit upping the odds you need 320A service if you have a regular sized all electric house. I’m sure it could be hacked but doing anything to void a warranty doesn’t make sense. The tech will come around. Tesla want to sell you a power wall. So I don’t see the two for teslas any time soon.

Aren't most houses at least 200 amp these days? I know my 200a panel is getting pretty crowded, but a lot of the stuff on it just isn't being used, like electric baseboard heaters, etc.

Not having an ability to power stuff with the car is a huge oversight. These larger EVs have such massive battery packs it makes sense to "kill two birds with one stone" and it becomes a mobile "power wall".

 

[EbS-P]

This is an absurd oversight. Even without adjustable ride height, you still need camber adjustment, even if it's just shimming mounting points like old cars.

Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg…. The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty. They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty not fix the design. 8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience. More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.

 

[stoveliker]

Good engineering does not only focus on the hype-able parts but does the boring everyday stuff with high quality as well...

 

[EbS-P]

Aren't most houses at least 200 amp these days? I know my 200a panel is getting pretty crowded, but a lot of the stuff on it just isn't being used, like electric baseboard heaters, etc.

Not having an ability to power stuff with the car is a huge oversight. These larger EVs have such massive battery packs it makes sense to "kill two birds with one stone" and it becomes a mobile "power wall".

Yes most are 200 but a load calculation probably has to be done. Electric water heater even if it’s heatpump gets 40A, oven, dryer, AC, resistive heat strips ect. I need to read up on how to do the calc.

 

[SpaceBus]

Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg…. The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty. They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty not fix the design. 8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience. More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.

I assume rear tires every 8k miles (absurd on anything other than 200tw race tires) would end up costing the owner a lot more than the suspension fix. The warranty being void on the front end doesn't matter when you save all that money from not chewing up rear tires all the time.

 

[stoveliker]

Oh this is just the tip of the iceberg…. The solution is an aftermarket 1600$ kit with lowering links and new adjustable upper control arms that voids drive shaft warranty. They have known about this for 5+ years and the solution is still to replace under warranty not fix the design. 8k miles on rear tires is a common enough experience. More common is a flat at 15-20k miles because the outside tread is fine but down the steels on the inside.

Is that common to all Tesla models or only your model?

 

[EbS-P]

I assume rear tires every 8k miles (absurd on anything other than 200tw race tires) would end up costing the owner a lot more than the suspension fix. The warranty being void on the front end doesn't matter when you save all that money from not chewing up rear tires all the time.

But to date no one has paid out of packet for the axel replacement and we have know idea the cost…. The average car owner probably can’t even tell you what camber is and what part of the car it changes. I agree with what you are saying though. I want to get new axels under warranty witch I have for 36 more months so I’ll wait until I get them replaced for free before I swap to adjustable top arms.

 

[EbS-P]

Is that common to all Tesla models or only your model?

It affects most model Xs (or all because they are built the same). As they raised the the ride height using the S suspension when they designed the X. I assume it has to affect some Ss but to a lesser extent due the lower ride height. But the components are the exact same between both models. One would think that now they are putting 1000+ HP drive trains in they would have fixed it but…. I think it’s the same front motor and they just put two motors in the rear. First model S s are now out of factory warranty to there should be a price for the axel job somewhere

 

[SpaceBus]

But to date no one has paid out of packet for the axel replacement and we have know idea the cost…. The average car owner probably can’t even tell you what camber is and what part of the car it changes. I agree with what you are saying though. I want to get new axels under warranty witch I have for 36 more months so I’ll wait until I get them replaced for free before I swap to adjustable top arms.

I assumed if you fixed the suspension geometry you wouldn't keep crushing front axles, but I might have misunderstood. I always thought the X had a more "rugged" suspension, but I guess not.

 

[EbS-P]

I assumed if you fixed the suspension geometry you wouldn't keep crushing front axles, but I might have misunderstood. I always thought the X had a more "rugged" suspension, but I guess not.

It helps quite a bit. The effect of the kit is that the basically lowers the suspension one or two settings. The last update set the drive height to low and would always return to low once you hit 35 mph. This is Elon’s over the air mechanical fix.

So if from the factory normal height has a sever of angle the kit lowers the normal setting to low or very low reducing the drive shaft angle and you then can set correct camber. The fix is to lower the motor to reduce drive line angles but that not happening. Supposedly they have stiffened a motor clevis mount to reduce the torque effects but it sounds hit and miss.

Things you learn when you start looking to learn things.

 

[woodgeek]

I'm no expert, but the Model X seems to have been a bit of an expensive boondoggle design-wise, and they make it back on the MSRP. I don't think I would 'count' an 'EV versus ICE cost' analysis that is derived from the 'X'. The doors alone almost bankrupted the company, at a critical time. LOL.

Apparently the 'Y' was their effort to return to 'manufacturability' over bling. Still expensive, but higher margins and a much better design.

The adjustable suspension is just there to get more mileage, back when that was cheaper than building a bigger battery. And Tesla saw getting a BIG mileage (range) number as an **existential issue** for the company, back just a few years ago when everyone was predicting their bankruptcy. The camber adjustment... pfft! gotta get a big range and get the units out the door. High-end buyers don't care about tire costs. Warranty claims? If Tesla is growing 40% CAGR, in three years those claims are against 3X higher revenues.

I'm not saying Tesla is a house of cards (its NOT), but the design/decision-making process in a big startup like that are VERY different than in a legacy maker, for good and bad.

Tesla's have very good resale compared to ICE cars. Gotta factor that in too.

But most folks buying EVs (even non-Tesla ones like myself) are NOT buying them to save money.

If most folks were buying ICE cars to save money, we'd all be driving Civics, --shudder--

 

[EbS-P]

I'm no expert, but the Model X seems to have been a bit of an expensive boondoggle design-wise, and they make it back on the MSRP. I don't think I would 'count' an 'EV versus ICE cost' analysis that is derived from the 'X'. The doors alone almost bankrupted the company, at a critical time. LOL.

Apparently the 'Y' was their effort to return to 'manufacturability' over bling. Still expensive, but higher margins and a much better design.

The adjustable suspension is just there to get more mileage, back when that was cheaper than building a bigger battery. And Tesla saw getting a BIG mileage (range) number as an **existential issue** for the company, back just a few years ago when everyone was predicting their bankruptcy. The camber adjustment... pfft! gotta get a big range and get the units out the door. High-end buyers don't care about tire costs. Warranty claims? If Tesla is growing 40% CAGR, in three years those claims are against 3X higher revenues.

I'm not saying Tesla is a house of cards (its NOT), but the design/decision-making process in a big startup like that are VERY different than in a legacy maker, for good and bad.

Tesla's have very good resale compared to ICE cars. Gotta factor that in too.

But most folks buying EVs (even non-Tesla ones like myself) are NOT buying them to save money.

If most folks were buying ICE cars to save money, we'd all be driving Civics, --shudder--

Probably a Honda Fit. That’s civic is a little too big

 

[stoveliker]

Mazda 2...

 

[EbS-P]

Mazda 2...

Or the 5 if you have a big family. I’d love to have a Mazda 5 BEV BK. Three rows of seats big doors…. I’m sure a usable 7-8 seat BEV is coming someday. (I don’t consider the Model Ys 3rd row usable. Sure a kid could sit back there but not with a car seat in the second row.) Even if it is the VW or the Tesla robo taxis.

 

[stoveliker]

That (Mazda 5) was the other car we had (just sold). Sliding doors but NY says it's a station wagon rather than a minivan, so registration is less.

 

[SpaceBus]

I love small cars like Mazda 2's, Honda Fits, Miatas, etc. My avatar is our first winter here and my wife's Fiat 500 Abarth. Back in NC I used to race Miatas and frequently co-drove with my friend in his Fiesta ST. Small cars don't have to be boring. The Civic is actually a pretty fun small car, especially in the sport, SI, and of course Type R trims. Toyota even brought back fun Corollas, but apparently only for like tens of people. I've also had a Mustang Mach 1 and SRT8 Challenger, so I can appreciate big cars too. I wish Fiat would bring the new 500 EV, it looks great! However I would much rather have something like a Fiat Panda, which doesn't exist for this market. The closest thing we got was the Jeep Renegade, and they killed off the only good engine/trans option and there are no EV variants planned, that I know of.

 

[stoveliker]

Lol, I've driven (not owned) a Fiat Panda. Looks like a Jeep dinky toy and drives like one too.

The Mazda 2 I have is a stick shift and was sold to me when the ad campaign was "Zoom zoom". And it can pull away pretty quickly because there is almost no mass...

But as noted before I drive like an old fart. Saves me money.

 

[SpaceBus]

Lol, I've driven (not owned) a Fiat Panda. Looks like a Jeep dinky toy and drives like one too.

The Mazda 2 I have is a stick shift and was sold to me when the ad campaign was "Zoom zoom". And it can pull away pretty quickly because there is almost no mass...

But as noted before I drive like an old fart. Saves me money.

I used to live in Europe while my family was stationed there. I like Pandas, they do well on really rough poorly maintained roads, which is what I have to deal with here. Back in NC I had a sporty bike, a Miata, and a Mach 1 Mustang, but the roads were in great shape.

Still there is only one "rugged" EV on the market, and I don't think it's even for sale yet. The Subaru Solterra.

 

[woodgeek]

Um, we bought a Mazda5 in 2013, a year before the LEAF. The ex just sold it 2 months ago.

 

[begreen]

Still there is only one "rugged" EV on the market, and I don't think it's even for sale yet. The Subaru Solterra.

The Rivian R1T and Ford F150 Lightning are showing good off-road rugged performance. Then there is the Jeep 4XE.

 

[ABMax24]

The new Toyota Tundra hybrid looks pretty impressive, gives the same fuel economy numbers as the Tacoma. Not a pure EV, but seems more affordable than the F150 lightning.

I'd like to see a diesel electric hybrid in a 1 ton. That would be something I would buy.

 

[SpaceBus]

The Rivian R1T and Ford F150 Lightning are showing good off-road rugged performance. Then there is the Jeep 4XE.

I already have a truck, and only drive it when I need to, so we will be looking for a compact SUV/Crossover/Hatchback when is time for the next car. This is why I mentioned a hypothetical Panda EV, it would suit our needs perfectly.

 

[SpaceBus]

The new Toyota Tundra hybrid looks pretty impressive, gives the same fuel economy numbers as the Tacoma. Not a pure EV, but seems more affordable than the F150 lightning.

I'd like to see a diesel electric hybrid in a 1 ton. That would be something I would buy.

Getting a Tundra up to Tacoma fuel economy isn't saying much, it was never an efficient vehicle. It will take a long time until hybrids or EV's can compete with diesel.