My first 650 miles with a BEV
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700 ft lbs from 0 rpm to 156 mph. I was probably exaggerating bit on how slow the 7.3 was but it didn’t even have 500 ft lbs.
A nice hot rod that you built for the strip but can still drive around town but have a pair of slicks for is probably the best comparison. It’s a different feeling without the gears. It’s a super car that can pass as a minivan.
You just haven't been in the right truck I guess.
I used to own an LB7 Duramax, that suffice to say wasn't stock. It surprised more than a few Mustangs and Camaros, and even a vette. By time their traction control light stopped flashing my built Allison was in 2nd gear and looking for 3rd. The beauty of 4 wheel drive.
I'm sure it wouldn't compare to a Model X, but that truck was probably the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I had to look this up for perspective. Model X P100d let’s just call 0-60 time 3,0 seconds. Look when the corvette broke 4.0. C6 Z06. When did it hit 3.0? 2015 with a C7 Z06. I only bring this up to highlight what an amazing engineering feat Tesla achieved. Three row seating and straight line performance of a at the time it was released as good or better than the highest performing corvette. It amazes me.
Corvette 0-60 mph Acceleration Times (Over the Years)
0-60 mph acceleration times for every Corvette Model Year. We compare all model years in an informative table and cool interactive chart.
www.corvsport.com
Is it an engineering feat or more an other technology with more torque at low speed? I thought the drive train in electric cars is not so high tech (as in "amazing").
I.e. is this not more the properties of the (old) technology used in electric cars?
I.e. is this not more the properties of the (old) technology used in electric cars?
I agree. I've spent a lot of time in a variety of fast ICE cars and launched a Tesla S P90D in Ludicrous mode more than 30 times and that feeling of constant, hard acceleration without wheel slip or variation from ICE power bands, turbo engagement, and transmission shifting is really much more like takeoff in a jet aircraft.
Somehow the lack of ICE engine noise seems to accentuate the perception of inertia and lateral acceleration.
IMO when you get down to 0 to 60 times, traction is real important. Look at rail dragster and the weight is designed to transfer to really bug sticky tires that get warmed up in a bleach pit. Not very practical for a regular car. AWD helps a lot as the horsepower can be delivered to the wheels that have the most traction. BEVs also have a lot of ballast down low as the battery packs are usually mounted low and between the axles to protect them from accidents, that helps traction. Electric motors have almost full rated torque from 0 RPM and the electric motors have far less rotating mass thus less inertia to accelerate. Electrical current is significantly faster than flow of air through an intake tract so from point of throttle application to full power an electric motor will ramp up faster.
Batteries do have to fly on the hairy edge of shorting out versus putting out useful power but Lithium chemistry is better than prior chemistries at peak current delivery. Ideally capacitors are even faster at discharge and that is one of the reasons that fuel cell vehicles usually have capacitor banks to deal with short term power demand. There can be a downside to very fast electric vehicles, battery life is somewhat dependent on peak discharge cycles, build a "hot" battery and discharge it quick and it will have shorter life than a battery that is not discharged as quickly.
Batteries do have to fly on the hairy edge of shorting out versus putting out useful power but Lithium chemistry is better than prior chemistries at peak current delivery. Ideally capacitors are even faster at discharge and that is one of the reasons that fuel cell vehicles usually have capacitor banks to deal with short term power demand. There can be a downside to very fast electric vehicles, battery life is somewhat dependent on peak discharge cycles, build a "hot" battery and discharge it quick and it will have shorter life than a battery that is not discharged as quickly.
Tesla decided to start from the ground up. They needed materials that didn’t exist. It started with engineering the materials. The packaging and system integration is an engineering feat as is constructing the assembly line. There have been lots of big powerful electrical motors for many many decades. Making one fit in a car and has a max 18k rpm and Has a whole vehicle reliable enough not to loose money is. They even engineered a new oil for the gearbox and motor. It’s more than old technology in applied in a different or new way IMO.
I think their marketing is great. Sure they engineered quite a bit. But a new oil, and fitting it in a small space etc is not the "amazing feat" that makes the car drive like a jet engine. Silicon carbide is not a new material. Decades of materials research went into that. Same for the aluminum alloys they use.
In fact, if you read what the (their) engineers say, it's "the adoption of new materials" (in car mfg), not the development of new materials. So, yes, new - for cars. Not new as in "did not exist before and its properties were not known".
It's been hyped. That's my opinion. That does not take away from the fact that it's a fantastic car.
In fact, if you read what the (their) engineers say, it's "the adoption of new materials" (in car mfg), not the development of new materials. So, yes, new - for cars. Not new as in "did not exist before and its properties were not known".
It's been hyped. That's my opinion. That does not take away from the fact that it's a fantastic car.
I greatly respect the engineering that has gone into Teslas. The crossover in metallurgy from SpaceX to the automobile is a game-changer. It's ironic that a lust for power and speed is more the motivation for these vehicles for many than practical transportation that reduces our carbon footprint. A lot of these vehicles are toys for the elite instead of mass replacements for the daily commuter. Hopefully, this trend will change, and soon.
Re Tesla engineering, I think both sides are right. Advances AND hype. When they were a little startup, TESLA 'technology' was mostly off the shelf materials and things like battery cells. Once they had a market and oodles of cash THEN they started doing some heavy R&D, while keeping up the hype.
Elon has a bump for building the machine that builds the machine... automated factories. A lot of their tech is engineering the cars to be manufacturable. This ofc in NOT a new invention (I think Toyota was a pioneer), but he does it.
Large companies used to have a rule of thumb to plow some amount of their profits into R&D for the next generation of products. IMO this was what led to most of the innovations of the modern age, yet many US companies stopped doing this in the 1980s (when tax writeoffs for R&D became less lucrative). Most large foreign companies kept on spending on R&D, which is why a lot of the last few decades advances (Lithium batteries, LED flat panels, LED lighting, etc) came from overseas. Elon is following them: plowing profits into both growing the production capacity AND R&D.
If you look at spaceX, similar trends. There is nothing new under the sun, Elon picks and chooses and combines the best engineering practices from a wide variety of sources. His rocket engines are riffs on Soviet designs (which were always way better than ours) and often soviet metallurgy (also better).
Elon has a bump for building the machine that builds the machine... automated factories. A lot of their tech is engineering the cars to be manufacturable. This ofc in NOT a new invention (I think Toyota was a pioneer), but he does it.
Large companies used to have a rule of thumb to plow some amount of their profits into R&D for the next generation of products. IMO this was what led to most of the innovations of the modern age, yet many US companies stopped doing this in the 1980s (when tax writeoffs for R&D became less lucrative). Most large foreign companies kept on spending on R&D, which is why a lot of the last few decades advances (Lithium batteries, LED flat panels, LED lighting, etc) came from overseas. Elon is following them: plowing profits into both growing the production capacity AND R&D.
If you look at spaceX, similar trends. There is nothing new under the sun, Elon picks and chooses and combines the best engineering practices from a wide variety of sources. His rocket engines are riffs on Soviet designs (which were always way better than ours) and often soviet metallurgy (also better).
I agree they are good engineers.
I fell over the they needed new materials and developed them as an explanation for the fast acceleration.
The latter is due to the high torque at start up, and that is not due to new materials. It's the nature of the beast (electric motor).
New materials are rare and far in between and take years if not decades to come out of a lab. They did not develop them, they found them (in the literature) and figured out a way to use them to their advantage. That is the strength and creativity that underlies the Tesla approach: look farther than others and find material design better suited for their needs that others had not thought of. It is the open eye, out of the box (really, landing rocket motors to reuse them?) that is the asset of the culture in this company, imo.
I fell over the they needed new materials and developed them as an explanation for the fast acceleration.
The latter is due to the high torque at start up, and that is not due to new materials. It's the nature of the beast (electric motor).
New materials are rare and far in between and take years if not decades to come out of a lab. They did not develop them, they found them (in the literature) and figured out a way to use them to their advantage. That is the strength and creativity that underlies the Tesla approach: look farther than others and find material design better suited for their needs that others had not thought of. It is the open eye, out of the box (really, landing rocket motors to reuse them?) that is the asset of the culture in this company, imo.
I have similar feeling. There just isn’t enough profit in the economy car markets. Manufacturing scale might bring down the cost and increase profit but why when you are making expensive cars as fast as you can and selling them before they role off the line. what motivation do you have to change. The model 3 was supposed to the civic Camry equivalent. That not the case now. I do appreciate the plan that you would effectively sell to the wealthy to finance your lower margin products but you have to follow through with those products. and I don’t see demand for the current lineup changing in 24 months. After that changes may be afoot but how much market share does Tesla have by then? I think the small economy market will be dominated by China and possibly other Asian manufacturers. Americans like the autos BIG.
While the sticker price of a Model 3 and Camry are different, I suspect the total cost of ownership might be a lot closer given the high price of gas, and much lower maintenance of the EV. Not to mention the much higher resale for the EV.
Cost of ownership comparisons are not really fair as few states have dealt with the gas tax issue. EVs somehow have to pay their way for road maintenance and right now most are getting a free ride. The problem is pay per mile is the logical approach but many fight it. IMO it really needs to be pay per mile with curb weight factored in as road damages are not linear, heavier vehicles do far more damage than lighter weight vehicles.
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Batteries are expensive, when that changes so will the production of economy EVs.
It costs very little to make a 400hp EV vs a 200hp EV, because for battery tech range is the limitation, not peak output. The motor can have a duty cycle, allowing it to run at high output for short periods, knowing 400hp will only be used in short bursts, saving material.
I can buy a new Honda Civic for about the cost of a Model 3 battery replacement. I can buy a lot of gas with the $40k price difference.
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It's the 900+hp models I am talking about. To handle that power the motors need to be larger and beefier along with other components to handle the stresses. And it takes a lot more battery power, cooling, and engineering to run it under that high amperage depletion rate. That means more expense in the suspension too. It's unnecessary and often dangerous because people don't know how to drive with that kind of acceleration.
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
No to derail this thread, but that's where I'm at too. I can't stomach spending 50 - 100k on a decent size ( bolt and leaf are too small IMHO ) electric vehicle when I only drive 6k miles a year at best. I'll never get my money back. When the price of electric vehicles come down to the current cost of a ICE car then I'll be interested. I'm definitely going to look at a hybrid for my next vehicle because the payback is definitely there.
Teslas eat tires. Only getting 20-25k miles a set seems average. And they aren’t cheap sizes either. Woman stopped me and asked where I got my set. She had been quoted 1800$ for her model Y. I would like to to see the TCOs updated for current prices. But I have seen a civic on the Honda lot so it might be meaningless right now.
I agree with you completely. I am very very fortunate for the deal I got on mine. Even a new 7 seat model Y is like 67k$. I still don’t see that making money sense. But I am willing spend some money to be environmentally friendly. Probably 100$ max a month. Call it 12,000-24,000$ for the life of the car. So may be the Y is now in my budget thinking 10-20 years out. Think we will see 20 year old Teslas on the road?
This is a good simple take on Teslas’ greatest achievement. They didn’t go bankrupt.
Tesla's Most Noteworthy Achievement Is Not What You Think It Is - CleanTechnica
Tesla's most noteworthy achievement isn't what you might think it is. Although Tesla has several of these,
cleantechnica.com
Agreed. For us, the Volt turned out to be a good compromise. It was affordable and with a 65 mile battery range, it covers most of our driving. If we go on a longer trip it switches over to gas (or I do it manually). The other thing is that Musk has tried too hard to make his latest vehicles into a kid's dream of a spaceship. He is an engineering genius, but immature in several ways, some of which percolate into the car's design. I don't like all the controls being on a touch screen including basic vehicle info like speed. For my wife driving, this would be a showstopper. And I really don't like the yoke steering wheel.
I thought the lack of buttons and physical controls would be an issue for me too but after 2 months it’s not a big deal. Most common buttons can be mapped to steering wheel controls. Not sure what the 3 and y have but once you set a driver profile the only buttons I use are music/radio buttons and climate control. I still have the manual Louvers on the vents but the only time I need to adjust them is because someone else moved them. The 3 and Y they would just be part of my profile. Looking at the videos of the new Kia it has touchscreen and physical controls, they seem redundant now. My TV when from 5 buttons to 1 and then to none when it broke. I miss them but it just means I need get a really really big remote so it can’t ever get lost. But it’s lost half the time and we still use the TV just fine.
Voice recognition and being comfortable with it help. The internet connection and media computer in my Tesla are slow so it’s only about 50% functional.
The yoke, well I’m kinda with you there but I do see a day where it’s drive by wire. And then it really never HAS to rotate more than 180 degrees. I’m excited to see alternatives that other manufacturers put forward. What’s the EV equivalent of a Corolla with manual windows and a 5 speed. Do they even sells cars with manual windows anymore?
1100 mile update (let’s call it 1000 for easy math). And for easy math let’s say it cost me 500 kWh or 65$. Gas for the minivan 16 mpg gas at 4$ a gallon so 250$. So I saved low balling it 185$ for every 1000 miles. So if a BEV is good for 100k miles I save 18500$ but you have to subtract the annual 140$ EV registration fee soooo. If you put on 10k miles a year you save 1700$ if gas is 4$ a gallon and power rate is 0.13$/ kWh. I didn’t factor in oil changes or maintenance I figure that’s a discussion for another time.
Interesting wrinkle will be power and gas costs over the life of the BEV. It makes me wonder if a solar instal doesn’t make more sense. I don’t have a great location but an off grid install might make money sense and offer backup power during extended outages, grid tied is probably cheaper.
Any way the more I learn about my Tesla the more hesitant I am to recommend any Tesla as replacement for an ICE for someone who doesn’t want to think about the vehicle and just get in every day and have it drive. Case in point the X and S do not have adjustable camber suspension. And that’s probably fine except they have adjustable ride hieght. And that’s probably ok but they really messed up drive shaft angles for the front motor and wheels. So you can lower the suspension save the driveshafts and eat rear tires at a crazy pace or raise the suspension and eat front half shafts.
There are at least four methods to reset the computers.
On a weekly basis one or both of my computers (one runs the infotainment the other the dash display and possibly the auto pilot) crash and reset wile driving. AC stops, no speedometer no indicators whatsoever. Reboot takes 2-5 minutes. No other established car manufacturer could ever get away with what Tesla has done interms of build quality. My assessment is the first 10,000 vehicles of a model or significant refresh are their quality/failure analysis testing. Not to say they are not committed to improvements but. Just reading people experiences no way anyone buying products from established manufacturers would put up with this.
Just some thoughts. Drive on.
Evan
Interesting wrinkle will be power and gas costs over the life of the BEV. It makes me wonder if a solar instal doesn’t make more sense. I don’t have a great location but an off grid install might make money sense and offer backup power during extended outages, grid tied is probably cheaper.
Any way the more I learn about my Tesla the more hesitant I am to recommend any Tesla as replacement for an ICE for someone who doesn’t want to think about the vehicle and just get in every day and have it drive. Case in point the X and S do not have adjustable camber suspension. And that’s probably fine except they have adjustable ride hieght. And that’s probably ok but they really messed up drive shaft angles for the front motor and wheels. So you can lower the suspension save the driveshafts and eat rear tires at a crazy pace or raise the suspension and eat front half shafts.
There are at least four methods to reset the computers.
On a weekly basis one or both of my computers (one runs the infotainment the other the dash display and possibly the auto pilot) crash and reset wile driving. AC stops, no speedometer no indicators whatsoever. Reboot takes 2-5 minutes. No other established car manufacturer could ever get away with what Tesla has done interms of build quality. My assessment is the first 10,000 vehicles of a model or significant refresh are their quality/failure analysis testing. Not to say they are not committed to improvements but. Just reading people experiences no way anyone buying products from established manufacturers would put up with this.
Just some thoughts. Drive on.
Evan
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
I think EV's only make sense at their current astronomical prices if you do have solar, especially if you don't drive much. The car becomes both transportation and storage for your excess solar power. This gives you the ability to use the car to back feed the house when you are not producing and not needing to go anywhere. Those car battery packs, especially on an F150 or big pack Tesla can easily power a house for quite a while, and have the output to run serious appliances like the well pump. I don't think we will get a BEV until we have both a sizeable garage and solar.
