Musings on overshoot after two years plant-based...

[woodgeek]

A New Year's milestone. I went vegan on New Year's Day 2023, after going 'vegan before 6' a few months earlier. So two years now.

My original motivation was environmental... reading about the huge climate impacts of the dairy I ate, primarily, while posting here.

The three big vegan flavors are ethical, health, and environmental. Ofc you can check more than one box. I will not discuss the ethical side here.

The health factor for me has been HUGE. I feel 15 years younger than I did two years ago. I'm now 56 and have zero 'complaints of old age' and am 10 pounds lighter, eating as much as a I want. I am convinced that the high saturated fat in the Western Diet leads to systemic atherosclerosis. While clogging of coronary arteries gets a lot of attention, atherosclerosis is systemic through the whole body where it impairs the functions of all the organs. I believe that such clogging is a source of many age related complaints and a significant factor in many cases of dementia and organ failure.

It is certainly possible to have a healthy (nutritious and non atherogenic) diet with some meat and dairy/eggs in it, but for most folks the safe amount is probably 1/10th of what we typically eat or less. Some people can certainly do that, but I can't. Its like telling a lifelong smoker that they can smoke 2 cigarettes a day and be fine statistically (which is true). For me, its easier to just quit altogether. YMMV.

On the environmental side, the case is compelling. The easiest way to see that is visually.:
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/biomass-of-mammals/

Tallying up Earth's mammals (by mass, 2023 figures):
wild land mammals: 2.2 % of total
wild sea mammals: 3.6% of total
humans: 35% of total
livestock: 59% of total
Just our cattle weigh approximately 20x that of all wild land mammals! Most of those cattle live short lives, often being harvested in a tenth of their natural lifespan (2 years versus 20).

The situation with birds is similar, wild birds only make up 29% of the world's birds by mass. The rest are chickens (57%) and ducks/turkeys (14%). Farmed chickens are usually harvested in <60 days, versus a 5-10 year natural lifespan.

Of course part of these ratios is the destruction of wild habitat and overfishing, but the bigger factor is overshoot... the total mass of mammals and birds today is a multiple of what it was historically. Some estimate as much as 6X.

I'm personally a big fan of humans, and am glad that we had a Green Revolution so that the mass of humans could overshoot the natural productivity of the entire biosphere (which happened in the 1950s IIRC). But I don't see the need for all the livestock to make that overshoot factor 6 rather than 2.5 without them. Especially if what we are doing with them is mostly shortening our own lifespans and healthspans.

Just getting rid of cattle would free up enough land from producing their fodder that we could double the area of productive wild habitats on the earth.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like great news. How much exercise have you been doing during this period? That and good sleep can sometimes contribute more than diet to overall health.

I recently finished reading "Outlive" by Peter Attica which does a good overview on what affects one's health span, that is living well until the final days of old age. He explores all that we currently know and don't know about holding off the 4 horsemen of death: cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and dementia. He has some interesting data on nutrition and the effects of different diets.

 

[woodgeek]

My exercise level has been the same for years, before and after the change. I walk at least 40 minutes per day, 7 days a week. Some days more like 80 minutes. I have tried to add some strength or aerobic or stretching to that, but never keep it up.

Sleep has been the same too, about 7-7.5 hours/night.

While nutrition, sleep, and exercise are recognized as the big 3 for health and longevity, people argue about their relative importance. Everything I have seen puts nutrition well ahead of the other two.

Attia an interesting influencer, whose background is in fitness, strength training and exercise. The reviews of his book have said that the chapters on nutrition betrayed a lack of knowledge on the subject, while he covered the other subjects well.

I note that he eats 5-10 sticks of venison jerky per day, claims it is a health food, and endorses the same brand for money.

What I have read about moderate exercise (self-serving) is that more is better, up to a level around 8000 steps per day of walking. Some strength and flexibility training on top of that is good too.

Attia is kinda hung up on VO2max and muscle mass, due to a small number of studies that relate those to longevity and risk of total mortality. He seems to advocate that maximizing your VO2max and muscle mass is the best way to achieve a long life.

The data I have seen suggests that the health effect of VO2max is weak above a normal 'fit' level. I have a colleague my age with 2X my VO2max (an avid cyclist), who already has had AFIB, heart surgery for it and some unpleasant complications from that surgery. He admits that his exercise regimen caused his AFIB. He still rides.

Similarly, maintaining good muscle mass in old age is beneficial... but again there is a limit. Bodybuilders tend to live less long that those that are more moderate.

 

[weee123]

In my uneducated opinion, as long as you aren’t eating a diet solely consisting of processed junk, the main factor for feeling good and functioning into old age is how active you are.

Working commercial construction I’ve worked with guys in their 50s, 60s, and yes even 70s who are still keeping up with the young guys. Others, who have no hobbies other than work up and die right after retirement because all they do now is sit on the couch without being active at all.

My mom also works as a head nurse at a retirement home and says the ones who stay active and keep their mind sharp are able to live normal lives into their 90s. And they aren’t vegans.

I think a big problem with western diets, especially American diets, is the amount of processed junk that people consume on a regular basis especially without physical activity. Since you went vegan, I also have seen you home cook most of your meals, it seems to me you cut most if not all of the processed junk out of your diet. I think that has a larger part to play than just veganism alone.

 

[begreen]

My exercise level has been the same for years, before and after the change. I walk at least 40 minutes per day, 7 days a week. Some days more like 80 minutes. I have tried to add some strength or aerobic or stretching to that, but never keep it up.

Sleep has been the same too, about 7-7.5 hours/night.

While nutrition, sleep, and exercise are recognized as the big 3 for health and longevity, people argue about their relative importance. Everything I have seen puts nutrition well ahead of the other two.

Attia an interesting influencer, whose background is in fitness, strength training and exercise. The reviews of his book have said that the chapters on nutrition betrayed a lack of knowledge on the subject, while he covered the other subjects well.

I note that he eats 5-10 sticks of venison jerky per day, claims it is a health food, and endorses the same brand for money.

What I have read about moderate exercise (self-serving) is that more is better, up to a level around 8000 steps per day of walking. Some strength and flexibility training on top of that is good too.

Attia is kinda hung up on VO2max and muscle mass, due to a small number of studies that relate those to longevity and risk of total mortality. He seems to advocate that maximizing your VO2max and muscle mass is the best way to achieve a long life.

The data I have seen suggests that the health effect of VO2max is weak above a normal 'fit' level. I have a colleague my age with 2X my VO2max (an avid cyclist), who already has had AFIB, heart surgery for it and some unpleasant complications from that surgery. He admits that his exercise regimen caused his AFIB. He still rides.

Similarly, maintaining good muscle mass in old age is beneficial... but again there is a limit. Bodybuilders tend to live less long that those that are more moderate.

It's not that nutrition is not important, it's that often too much weight is given it without paying attention to all factors affecting health. It sounds like you haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet. He's very specific about his views on nutrition and avoids getting into a pissing match about diets. In the book he provides several illustrations of how dietary studies have been flawed in the past in spite of their strong influence on medicine in spite of either being wrong, or basing assumptions on very incomplete knowledge. He provides several examples on how thinking is changing as our knowledge of human systems develops. In a nutshell he sums it up as " Nutrition Is Important But Don’t Be Dogmatic."

We still have a lot to learn about human systems, aging, and disease. Medicine has made a lot of bad assumptions in the past. In particular, I found his detailed description of how our understanding of cholesterol is changing and how basic HDL vs LDL is just a small part of the picture. In no part of the book does he push a specific diet or any product, though he does acknowledge that a mediteranean style diet is a good foundation. He is definitely into having enough protein in a senior diet and illustrates specifically why he feels it is important with several case studies listed. There is a lot of good information in Outlive and it is well presented. It's not the holy grail, but it is one of the better books I've read on health as we understand it today. This is an objective summary.

10 Takeaways from 'Outlive' by Peter Attia for Better Health

Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia is a comprehensive guide to living a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life. The book covers a wide range of topics, including diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, and emotional health. Attia's approach is evidence-based and valuable

www.mindbodydad.com

 

[woodgeek]

It's not that nutrition is not important, it's that often too much weight is given it without paying attention to all factors affecting health. It sounds like you haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet. He's very specific about his views on nutrition and avoids getting into a pissing match about diets. In the book he provides several illustrations of how dietary studies have been flawed in the past in spite of their strong influence on medicine in spite of either being wrong, or basing assumptions on very incomplete knowledge. He provides several examples on how thinking is changing as our knowledge of human systems develops. In a nutshell he sums it up as " Nutrition Is Important But Don’t Be Dogmatic."

We still have a lot to learn about human systems, aging, and disease. Medicine has made a lot of bad assumptions in the past. In particular, I found his detailed description of how our understanding of cholesterol is changing and how basic HDL vs LDL is just a small part of the picture. In no part of the book does he push a specific diet or any product, though he does acknowledge that a mediteranean style diet is a good foundation. He is definitely into having enough protein in a senior diet and illustrates specifically why he feels it is important with several case studies listed. There is a lot of good information in Outlive and it is well presented. It's not the holy grail, but it is one of the better books I've read on health as we understand it today. This is an objective summary.

10 Takeaways from 'Outlive' by Peter Attia for Better Health

Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia is a comprehensive guide to living a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life. The book covers a wide range of topics, including diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, and emotional health. Attia's approach is evidence-based and valuable

www.mindbodydad.com

Nice summary. I have seen a few reviews of the book from folks I trust, and quite a few interviews of Attia himself. But the summary was nice.

By point:

1, Fructose is a bugaboo. Yeah, don't drink a pile of fructose soda everyday. A bunch of OJ would be nearly as bad. Not hard to avoid, honestly, but that factor is not going to make a huge difference on the '4 horseman' and I don't know why its #1.

2. Manage ApoB. This is just awesome. ApoB correlates with LDL cholesterol, and is scientifically recognized as a superior metric for risk of atherosclerosis. But honestly, the two are super correlated and most people get an LDL score, and most doctors won't order an ApoB test. This will probably change in the next 10 years.

The misinformation about cholesterol, statins and Ancel Keys is off the charts in social media nowadays. I say (high blood) cholesterol is bad in most online fora and get downvoted to oblivion like nothing else. But the science is clear, and Attia agrees. Good on him being out there being a force for good and science.

Bonus points for saying that statins are good and life-extending!!

I'd put this #1, but I'll take #2.

3. Exercise is the best longevity 'drug'.

Attia is a lifelong exercise nut. He likes to cite a few studies about risk of mortality and VO2max. The problem is that those are not (to my knowledge) randomized controlled studies (RCT, the highest standard). They are also not interventional trials (like take two groups and tell one group in increase their VO2max for 5 or 10 years). They are prospective population studies, one step above demographic studies (both of which get discounted hard on the nutrition side of things).

So IMO the evidence for the magnitude of effects Attia claims is weak at this time. There is a positive effect, but him boasting about the top 1-2% VO2max having hugely reduced risk? Not supported yet.

Is moderate exercise as good as statins (a leading longevity drug)? Probably. Is extreme exercise better? We don't know.

I'm aok with exercise being #3. But moderate exercise is fine IMO.

4. Nutrition.

He says
--eat a LOT of protein (like over 150g/day for adult males).
--avoid 'overnourishing', which I assume is avoid being overweight.

He says that there are many strategies to avoiding overnourishing, including fasting, vegan and paleo diets, or caloric restriction.

I'm ok with this bc he already broke out the ApoB/LDL thing above. I'm curious to know if he talked in that chapter about limiting saturated fat and increasing fiber in the diet to achieve those ends? I'm also curious if 'paleo diet' is code for a carnivore diet... which has been shown to be dangerous in scientific studies.

The problem here is that there is clear evidence for animal fats being worse than plant fats and animal protein being worse than plant protein, for longevity, in particular cardiovascular disease and multiple cancers. More replicated and higher quality evidence (RCTs) than the VO2max prospective study he put at #3. That is the main motivation of the Mediterranean Diet (which is plant forward). Didn't see that mentioned in the summary.

5-9 read like the usual advice. no big problem with any of them. Americans worry about bone density a lot, bc of years of milk industry marketing. Old people will break bones after being low body weight and frail for an extended period. Active and normal weight seniors seldom have that problem.

#10 stability is good. Seldom stated, but lots of evidence for things like mobility training, light yoga, etc as being good for longevity.

What is missing? SALT. Americans eat way too much salt, and it is a major cause of cardiovascular disease. Reducing salt intake is one of the most effective interventions that we can do for lifespan and healthspan. There is a genetic component, with some people being a lot more tolerant than others.

Peter has stated that he eats up to 10 all natural venison jerky sticks per day to get 100 grams of (animal) protein per day. But they also contain 3800 mg of sodium. No bueno. I expect that salt is worse for him than the extra 100g animal protein is good for him.

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Summary, I am glad to see his thinking has evolved from his old keto-diet stuff. I think he is still biased towards exercise, VO2max and musclebuilding... which leads you to overdoing aerobic exercise, animal protein (to get anabolic leucine) at the cost of other things. He seems kinda dogmatic about it.

 

[begreen]

The nice thing in this volume is that he freely admits that he has made erroneous assumptions in the past. He admits he is an exercise nut and that his regime is not for everyone. For some, he points out, it would risk harm without years long training to build up and get in shape. He acknowledges that we are still learning, just like he is. The book provides several case studies where people were seriously genetically disadvantaged and destined for health problems in later life. Regular testing demonstrates that they have deferred issues by changing diet, exercise, stability, etc.

The important take from this book is that medical knowledge of the human body is changing and with it, so are the treatment options. He provides a lot of information in a very readable form that educates and empowers one to take better care of oneself. Knowledge helps raise the bar and expectations from one's doctor and the healthcare system in general, assuming that one does their part. It's not the bible of nutrition, but it is a good book, one I'll keep for reference. While not the final word, but it is a really good step up from previous, trust-us,-we-know-all, AMA-centric, doctoring of the past century, to the opportunities that modern medicine is exploring. Are there other books to recommend that cover this scope in lay person's terms?

I agree about the salt. There is no mention of meat jerky in the book. Whether he has dropped that regime or not is unknown. I think he treats himself as a human guinea pig that he can follow up with regular testing to see the results. FWIW, I had to look this up, not being a heavy meat protein person. 10 Maui Nut venison jerky sticks =2900 gms sodium. Still a lot, but not as bad as 3800 gms.

 

[woodgeek]

I found a different source on the sodium... no worries.

Another factor is supplements. About 6 months after going plant based, I was feeling pretty blah, did a little research, upped my protein (with a plant based protein powder) and bam... right as rain in two days.

I have since built up quite a 'stack' of supplements. So I checked out Attia's list (which varies with source, probably bc he has changed it over time), and mine was very similar. The important ones are high protein + RDA multivitamin, + Omega-3s + extra D + magnesium + creatine.

I think that for people under 40 who are eating real food, the need to supplement is quite small. But they can make a big difference over 40.

There is definitely a whole 'longevity community' of which Attia is just one example. But the attitude of customizing your nutrition, exercise, medical care and supplement stack is common among all of them.

 

[woodgeek]

Reading a bit more about Attia's take on cholesterol management... he only discusses pharmaceuticals. In his site posts I didn't see anything about eating less saturated fat or more fiber. Just pop a pill (or two) to take care of it... like its not a nutritional issue.

Weird. So are we in the West going to start eating better/healthier (whatever that means) OR are we going to just develop super-statins and inhibitors and Ozempics and take that to offset it all? Time will tell.

To bring the thread back to the livestock issue...

I believe the tech forecasts that precision fermentation (PF) will destroy the dairy industry, probably in the next 10 years. 'Real' dairy won't go away, but it will become an expensive boutique product like foie gras or something. We will still have bioidentical casein and whey protein and cheese and cream... much cheaper and without the cow. And we will lose all the harmful cow hormones at the same time. PF casein ice creams and cream cheeses are already for sale in US grocery stores.

There are a lot of vegetarians out there that would be vegan if they could give up dairy and eggs. I think PF will do more to create new vegans than any amount of vegan activism has. There are a lot of pescatarians who eat fish bc they are convinced it is needed for health... algal omega-3s can undercut that.

I don't believe that we will have cost effective cultured mammal meat in our lifetimes. That will require a lot of cheap PF generated feedstocks to work, so it will come after cheap PF at scale. What we will have is plant and fungal based products (by mass) with flavor ingredients added for taste that are generated by PF. Impossible burger is an example: legume based protein + plant based saturated fat + PF produced heme protein. There is a LOT of room for innovation here, and the main thing holding it back is subsidies for the meat industry, and all the externalized costs. A lot like fossil fuels about 20 years ago.

Watch this space.

 

[begreen]

The online summary I posted is just the cliff notes. I haven't visited many online sources including Attica's. He does cover saturated fats and the benefits of fiber in detail in the book on several different pages with a deep dive into their effects as well as how they affect other issues besides those of the cardiovascular system. This includes reviewing past erroneous studies and where they made their mistakes. Outlive is extensively annotated, with a ton of references. He's pretty clear that this is a work in progress and his personal regime is not appropriate for everyone. I think he sees himself as a data point in a life experiment. Check the book out from the library.

I have followed the threads on PF and am interested to see how this develops. We weekly eat one or two portion of animal meat in the form of seafood or poultry. My wife stops there, but I admit to having bacon once or twice a year and maybe some ham during the holidays. Haven't had a burger in 50 yrs. So far we haven't tried any PF products. We make most of what we eat and avoid processed foods. At this point, we're in pretty good shape for mid-seventies, but we want to continue to enjoy good health. I don't ever see us exercising at anything close to Attica's level, but we do walk, bicycle, and yoga. The knowledge he has shared in this book has been really helpful for better understanding the miracle of metabolism in our bodies. The progress medicine made in the past 20 yrs. is wonderful. The trick is finding a doctor that is up to speed on these developments.