Musings on overshoot after two years plant-based...

[woodgeek]

A New Year's milestone. I went vegan on New Year's Day 2023, after going 'vegan before 6' a few months earlier. So two years now.

My original motivation was environmental... reading about the huge climate impacts of the dairy I ate, primarily, while posting here.

The three big vegan flavors are ethical, health, and environmental. Ofc you can check more than one box. I will not discuss the ethical side here.

The health factor for me has been HUGE. I feel 15 years younger than I did two years ago. I'm now 56 and have zero 'complaints of old age' and am 10 pounds lighter, eating as much as a I want. I am convinced that the high saturated fat in the Western Diet leads to systemic atherosclerosis. While clogging of coronary arteries gets a lot of attention, atherosclerosis is systemic through the whole body where it impairs the functions of all the organs. I believe that such clogging is a source of many age related complaints and a significant factor in many cases of dementia and organ failure.

It is certainly possible to have a healthy (nutritious and non atherogenic) diet with some meat and dairy/eggs in it, but for most folks the safe amount is probably 1/10th of what we typically eat or less. Some people can certainly do that, but I can't. Its like telling a lifelong smoker that they can smoke 2 cigarettes a day and be fine statistically (which is true). For me, its easier to just quit altogether. YMMV.

On the environmental side, the case is compelling. The easiest way to see that is visually.:
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/biomass-of-mammals/

Tallying up Earth's mammals (by mass, 2023 figures):
wild land mammals: 2.2 % of total
wild sea mammals: 3.6% of total
humans: 35% of total
livestock: 59% of total
Just our cattle weigh approximately 20x that of all wild land mammals! Most of those cattle live short lives, often being harvested in a tenth of their natural lifespan (2 years versus 20).

The situation with birds is similar, wild birds only make up 29% of the world's birds by mass. The rest are chickens (57%) and ducks/turkeys (14%). Farmed chickens are usually harvested in <60 days, versus a 5-10 year natural lifespan.

Of course part of these ratios is the destruction of wild habitat and overfishing, but the bigger factor is overshoot... the total mass of mammals and birds today is a multiple of what it was historically. Some estimate as much as 6X.

I'm personally a big fan of humans, and am glad that we had a Green Revolution so that the mass of humans could overshoot the natural productivity of the entire biosphere (which happened in the 1950s IIRC). But I don't see the need for all the livestock to make that overshoot factor 6 rather than 2.5 without them. Especially if what we are doing with them is mostly shortening our own lifespans and healthspans.

Just getting rid of cattle would free up enough land from producing their fodder that we could double the area of productive wild habitats on the earth.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like great news. How much exercise have you been doing during this period? That and good sleep can sometimes contribute more than diet to overall health.

I recently finished reading "Outlive" by Peter Attica which does a good overview on what affects one's health span, that is living well until the final days of old age. He explores all that we currently know and don't know about holding off the 4 horsemen of death: cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and dementia. He has some interesting data on nutrition and the effects of different diets.

 

[woodgeek]

My exercise level has been the same for years, before and after the change. I walk at least 40 minutes per day, 7 days a week. Some days more like 80 minutes. I have tried to add some strength or aerobic or stretching to that, but never keep it up.

Sleep has been the same too, about 7-7.5 hours/night.

While nutrition, sleep, and exercise are recognized as the big 3 for health and longevity, people argue about their relative importance. Everything I have seen puts nutrition well ahead of the other two.

Attia an interesting influencer, whose background is in fitness, strength training and exercise. The reviews of his book have said that the chapters on nutrition betrayed a lack of knowledge on the subject, while he covered the other subjects well.

I note that he eats 5-10 sticks of venison jerky per day, claims it is a health food, and endorses the same brand for money.

What I have read about moderate exercise (self-serving) is that more is better, up to a level around 8000 steps per day of walking. Some strength and flexibility training on top of that is good too.

Attia is kinda hung up on VO2max and muscle mass, due to a small number of studies that relate those to longevity and risk of total mortality. He seems to advocate that maximizing your VO2max and muscle mass is the best way to achieve a long life.

The data I have seen suggests that the health effect of VO2max is weak above a normal 'fit' level. I have a colleague my age with 2X my VO2max (an avid cyclist), who already has had AFIB, heart surgery for it and some unpleasant complications from that surgery. He admits that his exercise regimen caused his AFIB. He still rides.

Similarly, maintaining good muscle mass in old age is beneficial... but again there is a limit. Bodybuilders tend to live less long that those that are more moderate.

 

[weee123]

In my uneducated opinion, as long as you aren’t eating a diet solely consisting of processed junk, the main factor for feeling good and functioning into old age is how active you are.

Working commercial construction I’ve worked with guys in their 50s, 60s, and yes even 70s who are still keeping up with the young guys. Others, who have no hobbies other than work up and die right after retirement because all they do now is sit on the couch without being active at all.

My mom also works as a head nurse at a retirement home and says the ones who stay active and keep their mind sharp are able to live normal lives into their 90s. And they aren’t vegans.

I think a big problem with western diets, especially American diets, is the amount of processed junk that people consume on a regular basis especially without physical activity. Since you went vegan, I also have seen you home cook most of your meals, it seems to me you cut most if not all of the processed junk out of your diet. I think that has a larger part to play than just veganism alone.

 

[begreen]

My exercise level has been the same for years, before and after the change. I walk at least 40 minutes per day, 7 days a week. Some days more like 80 minutes. I have tried to add some strength or aerobic or stretching to that, but never keep it up.

Sleep has been the same too, about 7-7.5 hours/night.

While nutrition, sleep, and exercise are recognized as the big 3 for health and longevity, people argue about their relative importance. Everything I have seen puts nutrition well ahead of the other two.

Attia an interesting influencer, whose background is in fitness, strength training and exercise. The reviews of his book have said that the chapters on nutrition betrayed a lack of knowledge on the subject, while he covered the other subjects well.

I note that he eats 5-10 sticks of venison jerky per day, claims it is a health food, and endorses the same brand for money.

What I have read about moderate exercise (self-serving) is that more is better, up to a level around 8000 steps per day of walking. Some strength and flexibility training on top of that is good too.

Attia is kinda hung up on VO2max and muscle mass, due to a small number of studies that relate those to longevity and risk of total mortality. He seems to advocate that maximizing your VO2max and muscle mass is the best way to achieve a long life.

The data I have seen suggests that the health effect of VO2max is weak above a normal 'fit' level. I have a colleague my age with 2X my VO2max (an avid cyclist), who already has had AFIB, heart surgery for it and some unpleasant complications from that surgery. He admits that his exercise regimen caused his AFIB. He still rides.

Similarly, maintaining good muscle mass in old age is beneficial... but again there is a limit. Bodybuilders tend to live less long that those that are more moderate.

It's not that nutrition is not important, it's that often too much weight is given it without paying attention to all factors affecting health. It sounds like you haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet. He's very specific about his views on nutrition and avoids getting into a pissing match about diets. In the book he provides several illustrations of how dietary studies have been flawed in the past in spite of their strong influence on medicine in spite of either being wrong, or basing assumptions on very incomplete knowledge. He provides several examples on how thinking is changing as our knowledge of human systems develops. In a nutshell he sums it up as " Nutrition Is Important But Don’t Be Dogmatic."

We still have a lot to learn about human systems, aging, and disease. Medicine has made a lot of bad assumptions in the past. In particular, I found his detailed description of how our understanding of cholesterol is changing and how basic HDL vs LDL is just a small part of the picture. In no part of the book does he push a specific diet or any product, though he does acknowledge that a mediteranean style diet is a good foundation. He is definitely into having enough protein in a senior diet and illustrates specifically why he feels it is important with several case studies listed. There is a lot of good information in Outlive and it is well presented. It's not the holy grail, but it is one of the better books I've read on health as we understand it today. This is an objective summary.

10 Takeaways from 'Outlive' by Peter Attia for Better Health

Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia is a comprehensive guide to living a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life. The book covers a wide range of topics, including diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, and emotional health. Attia's approach is evidence-based and valuable

www.mindbodydad.com

 

[woodgeek]

It's not that nutrition is not important, it's that often too much weight is given it without paying attention to all factors affecting health. It sounds like you haven't had the opportunity to read the book yet. He's very specific about his views on nutrition and avoids getting into a pissing match about diets. In the book he provides several illustrations of how dietary studies have been flawed in the past in spite of their strong influence on medicine in spite of either being wrong, or basing assumptions on very incomplete knowledge. He provides several examples on how thinking is changing as our knowledge of human systems develops. In a nutshell he sums it up as " Nutrition Is Important But Don’t Be Dogmatic."

We still have a lot to learn about human systems, aging, and disease. Medicine has made a lot of bad assumptions in the past. In particular, I found his detailed description of how our understanding of cholesterol is changing and how basic HDL vs LDL is just a small part of the picture. In no part of the book does he push a specific diet or any product, though he does acknowledge that a mediteranean style diet is a good foundation. He is definitely into having enough protein in a senior diet and illustrates specifically why he feels it is important with several case studies listed. There is a lot of good information in Outlive and it is well presented. It's not the holy grail, but it is one of the better books I've read on health as we understand it today. This is an objective summary.

10 Takeaways from 'Outlive' by Peter Attia for Better Health

Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity by Peter Attia is a comprehensive guide to living a longer, healthier, and more fulfilling life. The book covers a wide range of topics, including diet, exercise, sleep, stress management, and emotional health. Attia's approach is evidence-based and valuable

www.mindbodydad.com

Nice summary. I have seen a few reviews of the book from folks I trust, and quite a few interviews of Attia himself. But the summary was nice.

By point:

1, Fructose is a bugaboo. Yeah, don't drink a pile of fructose soda everyday. A bunch of OJ would be nearly as bad. Not hard to avoid, honestly, but that factor is not going to make a huge difference on the '4 horseman' and I don't know why its #1.

2. Manage ApoB. This is just awesome. ApoB correlates with LDL cholesterol, and is scientifically recognized as a superior metric for risk of atherosclerosis. But honestly, the two are super correlated and most people get an LDL score, and most doctors won't order an ApoB test. This will probably change in the next 10 years.

The misinformation about cholesterol, statins and Ancel Keys is off the charts in social media nowadays. I say (high blood) cholesterol is bad in most online fora and get downvoted to oblivion like nothing else. But the science is clear, and Attia agrees. Good on him being out there being a force for good and science.

Bonus points for saying that statins are good and life-extending!!

I'd put this #1, but I'll take #2.

3. Exercise is the best longevity 'drug'.

Attia is a lifelong exercise nut. He likes to cite a few studies about risk of mortality and VO2max. The problem is that those are not (to my knowledge) randomized controlled studies (RCT, the highest standard). They are also not interventional trials (like take two groups and tell one group in increase their VO2max for 5 or 10 years). They are prospective population studies, one step above demographic studies (both of which get discounted hard on the nutrition side of things).

So IMO the evidence for the magnitude of effects Attia claims is weak at this time. There is a positive effect, but him boasting about the top 1-2% VO2max having hugely reduced risk? Not supported yet.

Is moderate exercise as good as statins (a leading longevity drug)? Probably. Is extreme exercise better? We don't know.

I'm aok with exercise being #3. But moderate exercise is fine IMO.

4. Nutrition.

He says
--eat a LOT of protein (like over 150g/day for adult males).
--avoid 'overnourishing', which I assume is avoid being overweight.

He says that there are many strategies to avoiding overnourishing, including fasting, vegan and paleo diets, or caloric restriction.

I'm ok with this bc he already broke out the ApoB/LDL thing above. I'm curious to know if he talked in that chapter about limiting saturated fat and increasing fiber in the diet to achieve those ends? I'm also curious if 'paleo diet' is code for a carnivore diet... which has been shown to be dangerous in scientific studies.

The problem here is that there is clear evidence for animal fats being worse than plant fats and animal protein being worse than plant protein, for longevity, in particular cardiovascular disease and multiple cancers. More replicated and higher quality evidence (RCTs) than the VO2max prospective study he put at #3. That is the main motivation of the Mediterranean Diet (which is plant forward). Didn't see that mentioned in the summary.

5-9 read like the usual advice. no big problem with any of them. Americans worry about bone density a lot, bc of years of milk industry marketing. Old people will break bones after being low body weight and frail for an extended period. Active and normal weight seniors seldom have that problem.

#10 stability is good. Seldom stated, but lots of evidence for things like mobility training, light yoga, etc as being good for longevity.

What is missing? SALT. Americans eat way too much salt, and it is a major cause of cardiovascular disease. Reducing salt intake is one of the most effective interventions that we can do for lifespan and healthspan. There is a genetic component, with some people being a lot more tolerant than others.

Peter has stated that he eats up to 10 all natural venison jerky sticks per day to get 100 grams of (animal) protein per day. But they also contain 3800 mg of sodium. No bueno. I expect that salt is worse for him than the extra 100g animal protein is good for him.

------

Summary, I am glad to see his thinking has evolved from his old keto-diet stuff. I think he is still biased towards exercise, VO2max and musclebuilding... which leads you to overdoing aerobic exercise, animal protein (to get anabolic leucine) at the cost of other things. He seems kinda dogmatic about it.

 

[begreen]

The nice thing in this volume is that he freely admits that he has made erroneous assumptions in the past. He admits he is an exercise nut and that his regime is not for everyone. For some, he points out, it would risk harm without years long training to build up and get in shape. He acknowledges that we are still learning, just like he is. The book provides several case studies where people were seriously genetically disadvantaged and destined for health problems in later life. Regular testing demonstrates that they have deferred issues by changing diet, exercise, stability, etc.

The important take from this book is that medical knowledge of the human body is changing and with it, so are the treatment options. He provides a lot of information in a very readable form that educates and empowers one to take better care of oneself. Knowledge helps raise the bar and expectations from one's doctor and the healthcare system in general, assuming that one does their part. It's not the bible of nutrition, but it is a good book, one I'll keep for reference. While not the final word, but it is a really good step up from previous, trust-us,-we-know-all, AMA-centric, doctoring of the past century, to the opportunities that modern medicine is exploring. Are there other books to recommend that cover this scope in lay person's terms?

I agree about the salt. There is no mention of meat jerky in the book. Whether he has dropped that regime or not is unknown. I think he treats himself as a human guinea pig that he can follow up with regular testing to see the results. FWIW, I had to look this up, not being a heavy meat protein person. 10 Maui Nut venison jerky sticks =2900 gms sodium. Still a lot, but not as bad as 3800 gms.

 

[woodgeek]

I found a different source on the sodium... no worries.

Another factor is supplements. About 6 months after going plant based, I was feeling pretty blah, did a little research, upped my protein (with a plant based protein powder) and bam... right as rain in two days.

I have since built up quite a 'stack' of supplements. So I checked out Attia's list (which varies with source, probably bc he has changed it over time), and mine was very similar. The important ones are high protein + RDA multivitamin, + Omega-3s + extra D + magnesium + creatine.

I think that for people under 40 who are eating real food, the need to supplement is quite small. But they can make a big difference over 40.

There is definitely a whole 'longevity community' of which Attia is just one example. But the attitude of customizing your nutrition, exercise, medical care and supplement stack is common among all of them.

 

[woodgeek]

Reading a bit more about Attia's take on cholesterol management... he only discusses pharmaceuticals. In his site posts I didn't see anything about eating less saturated fat or more fiber. Just pop a pill (or two) to take care of it... like its not a nutritional issue.

Weird. So are we in the West going to start eating better/healthier (whatever that means) OR are we going to just develop super-statins and inhibitors and Ozempics and take that to offset it all? Time will tell.

To bring the thread back to the livestock issue...

I believe the tech forecasts that precision fermentation (PF) will destroy the dairy industry, probably in the next 10 years. 'Real' dairy won't go away, but it will become an expensive boutique product like foie gras or something. We will still have bioidentical casein and whey protein and cheese and cream... much cheaper and without the cow. And we will lose all the harmful cow hormones at the same time. PF casein ice creams and cream cheeses are already for sale in US grocery stores.

There are a lot of vegetarians out there that would be vegan if they could give up dairy and eggs. I think PF will do more to create new vegans than any amount of vegan activism has. There are a lot of pescatarians who eat fish bc they are convinced it is needed for health... algal omega-3s can undercut that.

I don't believe that we will have cost effective cultured mammal meat in our lifetimes. That will require a lot of cheap PF generated feedstocks to work, so it will come after cheap PF at scale. What we will have is plant and fungal based products (by mass) with flavor ingredients added for taste that are generated by PF. Impossible burger is an example: legume based protein + plant based saturated fat + PF produced heme protein. There is a LOT of room for innovation here, and the main thing holding it back is subsidies for the meat industry, and all the externalized costs. A lot like fossil fuels about 20 years ago.

Watch this space.

 

[begreen]

The online summary I posted is just the cliff notes. I haven't visited many online sources including Attica's. He does cover saturated fats and the benefits of fiber in detail in the book on several different pages with a deep dive into their effects as well as how they affect other issues besides those of the cardiovascular system. This includes reviewing past erroneous studies and where they made their mistakes. Outlive is extensively annotated, with a ton of references. He's pretty clear that this is a work in progress and his personal regime is not appropriate for everyone. I think he sees himself as a data point in a life experiment. Check the book out from the library.

I have followed the threads on PF and am interested to see how this develops. We weekly eat one or two portion of animal meat in the form of seafood or poultry. My wife stops there, but I admit to having bacon once or twice a year and maybe some ham during the holidays. Haven't had a burger in 50 yrs. So far we haven't tried any PF products. We make most of what we eat and avoid processed foods. At this point, we're in pretty good shape for mid-seventies, but we want to continue to enjoy good health. I don't ever see us exercising at anything close to Attica's level, but we do walk, bicycle, and yoga. The knowledge he has shared in this book has been really helpful for better understanding the miracle of metabolism in our bodies. The progress medicine made in the past 20 yrs. is wonderful. The trick is finding a doctor that is up to speed on these developments.

 

[woodgeek]

So, saw an interesting thing come in my feed about Attia.

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Basically, the youtuber is an investigative journalist (remember when we had those?) who is discussing a lawsuit between Attia and the makers of the Oura ring, who apparently stiffed Peter for $1.3M. The court disclosures detail the nature of the agreement between Oura and Attia, not only for (1) advertising on his newsletter and media, but also (2) making tweets replying to company tweets to increase their visibility and (3) getting scientists in the longevity space to study the effects of Oura products, so those studies could subsequently be used to give Oura a science provien sheen!

Wow.

The journalist doesn't have any hate for Attia (who I agree is one of the 'cleaner' influencers in the health/longevity space), but says that if Peter is doing this chit for money, the others must be up to a BUNCH of totally unregulated and undisclosed deals.

So I guess I have gotten kinda cynical about big youtube influencers. I think we all like to think that they are folks shooting videos in their garage on a shoestring budget. But most of them have a media team, a research team, a social media team and a video production team, once they 'hit the big-time'. That all takes $$$ and we have to guess where the money comes from (since it is reported nowhere) and what its effects may be.

The Merchants of Doubt now pay influencers, not just MadMen advertisers.

The Nutrition youtubers I like do not take sponsorships, and talk about papers and the science.

For example,

Nutrition Made Simple!

The science of healthy eating broken down... in bite-size pieces. Myth-busting. Fact-checking. Tasty, healthy food doesn't need to be complicated. Whether mediterranean, omnivore, pescaterian, vegetarian, vegan, keto, low carb or high carb, healthy nutrition can be simple and fun. Nutrition...

www.youtube.com

Viva Longevity!

Fabulously informative episodes about living young and dying old. We find the world’s top scientists & experts on living younger, healthier lives. There’s so much conflicting information about longevity—from supplement companies, social media stars, pop book authors, and food marketers who...

www.youtube.com

Physionic

Detailed multi-study analyses, clear explanations of mechanisms underlying the results, and a sprinkling of cheeky humor. Learn your body, from the macro to the micro - welcome to Physionic. Credentials: - Ph.D. in Molecular Medicine (Cell Physiology) - Masters in Exercise Physiology - 10...

www.youtube.com

Dr. Layne Norton

Dr. Layne Norton educates on all topics fitness, nutrition, training, and health.

www.youtube.com

And when you look at what they say... weird, they say the same things that govt nutritional guidelines have been saying for decades, in over 100 countries around the world. Like saturated fat and salt are bad for you (cardiovascular disease), don't be overweight, and eat your veggies.

On a lark, I googled 'peter attia is saturated fat bad for you?' and the first video was this:

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from 10 mos ago, with the title 'Do high saturated fat diets lead to heart disease?' and he
1. Disses Ancel Keyes (who lived to 100 eating seed oils and a low saturate fat diet), who can't defend himself.
2. Discusses an unpublished study from 1973 that answered 'No'
3. Demonizes seed oils.

I am fine with people's worldview changing... but if you are a content creator, you take down content that no longer reflects your view.

Ugh. The second link was a post on Peter's Website, from 2012 (but again, he hasn't taken it down, so it is still his official opinion)

How did we come to believe saturated fat and cholesterol are bad for us? - Peter Attia

There aren’t too many topics that really get me riled up anymore. I’m too old and too busy to care about debating the merits of stem cell research, the legalization of marijuana, or Proposition 8. Sure, I have strong opinions on all of these topics and more, but they are just that – opinions...

peterattiamd.com

In it says the influencer canon in 2025: the old studies were flawed, the bad science was pushed forward for sketchy reasons, and gosh darn it people are being injured (by being tricked to eat less saturated fat?).

He defers giving details by referring readers instead to a book by Gary Taubes, who has been peddling nutrition misinformation for 20+ years, who is literally in the pocket of the cattle association.

Ugh.

Fun fact: there have been LOTS of studies using many different techniques that didn't exist in 1973, which consistently show that high blood LDL cholesterol causes CVD, and also that diets high in saturated fat and low in fiber raise LDL. And yet Peter is rehashing 50 year old studies that were never published, not talking about recent science, plugging Taubes (who was his business partner at the time) while taking statins for his own high LDL!

Sorry, that's messed up.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

I just make sure that the food I eat is vegan, happens to be grain free as well which is nice just grass, water and mineral. Works well and allows my acres that produce food to also support wildlife year round as opposed to row cropping.

 

[woodgeek]

Nice looking livestock. Have you worked out your productivity, like calories per acre per year?

per a quick Google, there are about 0.5 acres of arable land and 1.5 acres of grazable land per human on earth.

How many people could you feed per acre?

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

Nice looking livestock. Have you worked out your productivity, like calories per acre per year?

per a quick Google, there are about 0.5 acres of arable land and 1.5 acres of grazable land per human on earth.

How many people could you feed per acre?

Most of my math is spent on strict grazing management which allows me to run nearly twice the amount of livestock on given acreage when compared to traditional farming methods. If we converted golf courses and housing developments back into ecosystems utilized by wildlife, people, and livestock in harmony I'm confident we could feed the world. We would also eliminate the need for ground which is plowed ditch to ditch for row crops and eventually leaves soil dead and exhausted requiring copious amounts of fertilizer, herbicides, and other goodies.

The number of acres that livestock (with the proper genetics) can graze that is not tillable or suitable for growing food would be silly to not utilize. And this ground is home to wildlife, campers, hikers, hunters, and many others that benefit from human management.

It's interesting, I think we are closer to agreeing than one may think. We both care about the environment and want to see a big beautiful green world (I prefer my rolling green fields as opposed to dirt corn and soybean fields). I feel that livestock is the oldest and best tool we have that runs on sunlight and water is livestock and grass. A lot of the current practices involving livestock abhor me (feedlots, reliance on grain, poor husbandry practices). At the same time, row crop farming has a huge reliance on industrial inputs and can severely denigrate the land if done poorly as well.

Maybe we can do both? Maybe there is a place for vegan vegetable farms right alongside managed livestock? I know I can't eat grass and my hogs and chickens love vegetable waste.

 

[woodgeek]

But if we only grazed livestock, rather than feeding them grains grown using intensive measures (like your row cropping and synthetic fertilizer), we would have to reduce the current global livestock herd and production of meat significantly.

Are you OK with that?

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

But if we only grazed livestock, rather than feeding them grains grown using intensive measures (like your row cropping and synthetic fertilizer), we would have to reduce the current global livestock herd and production of meat significantly.

Are you OK with that?

If we managed our grazing land correctly and therefore increased our carrying capacity of grazing lands we could do this without having to cut back numbers. I run twice as much pounds of livestock on my property and still have more grass than the neighbors, no fertilizer, and the only fuel I burn is that little 4 wheeler. Neat thing too, since my sheep are grazing lush grass they barely drink any water, which I know is also a huge contention point for livestock.

And maybe some of those row crop fields can go back to grass and can be interspersed with trees as well (look up silvopasture). Then that ground can host wildlife as well as generate food. Personally, I am sick of seeing plows on steep banks and hills for the sake of growing corn, the soil erosion is horrendous.

 

[woodgeek]

This is why I asked about calories per acre. Swapping an acre intensively grown with corn for an acre covered in lovely green grass and grazing sheep will significantly reduce the number of calories produced per acre. We can't do that at scale without a lot of folks (and livestock) going hungry.

This is the point of overshoot. We can't raise enough food anymore without resorting to unnatural, intensive methods. Not even close.

This table estimates the amount of land required to produce 1000 calories of food per year. It is far higher for sheep than for grains and legumes. Roughly 100X.

Land use of foods per 1000 kilocalories

Land use is measured in meters squared (m²) required to produce 1000 kilocalories of a given food product.

ourworldindata.org

Last year I visited India, specifically Chennai in the state of Tamil Nadu. That one state is 25% smaller in area than Wisconsin, and has a population of 70 million people (almost 2X that of California). If I did my math right, that is about 0.46 acres total land per man woman and child in Tamil Nadu. If that sounds pretty dense/crowded to you, remember that the whole earth only has 0.5 acres of arable land per human today.

That is the point of overshoot.

If you had to feed a family of 4 on nothing but 2 acres of arable land (0.5 acres/human), you might have some livestock on it, but you'd also have plenty of rowcrops and synthetic fertilizer. You couldn't do it with just 2 acres of grass and sheep.

In terms of 'overshoot world' food production, you have a pretty green park or nature preserve, with some sheep on it.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

I still don't feel most of your data accounts for intensively managed properties but I'm not going to argue with the fact that we've overshot. At this point though I'm going to fight the good fight and keep raising responsible livestock in a way that is harmonious with the land. This intensive farming that is going on seems required for the population we have is going to ravage the Earth and I'm just not playing that part. People weren't designed to eat moss bugs and tofu.

 

[woodgeek]

I still don't feel most of your data accounts for intensively managed properties but I'm not going to argue with the fact that we've overshot. At this point though I'm going to fight the good fight and keep raising responsible livestock in a way that is harmonious with the land. This intensive farming that is going on seems required for the population we have is going to ravage the Earth and I'm just not playing that part.

Of course there is a big range in productivity per acre. That is why I was interested if you were achieving higher production than the average in the plot.

People weren't designed to eat moss bugs and tofu.

Yeah, in order of preference, our ancestors ate leaves and fruit (great apes), then starchy tubers and wild grains (early hominids and genus Homo), then some meat with humans.

And a majority of humans globally are fine with eating bugs.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

Of course there is a big range in productivity per acre. That is why I was interested if you were achieving higher production than the average in the plot.



Yeah, in order of preference, our ancestors ate leaves and fruit (great apes), then starchy tubers and wild grains (early hominids and genus Homo), then some meat with humans.

And a majority of humans globally are fine with eating bugs.

Great apes? That's your argument? My dude you'll pull anything out of your ass for internet points hahaha maybe we go all the way back to single cell organisms to make a point. Feels like this is getting counterproductive you stick What you want to do And I'll stick to what I want to do. But vegans convinced they are saving the world are always a hoot. I wouldn't eat a lab grown burger at gunpoint.

 

[woodgeek]

Great apes? That's your argument? My dude you'll pull anything out of your ass for internet points hahaha maybe we go all the way back to single cell organisms to make a point. Feels like this is getting counterproductive you stick What you want to do And I'll stick to what I want to do. But vegans convinced they are saving the world are always a hoot. I wouldn't eat a lab grown burger at gunpoint.

Not trying to argue. You can eat anything and farm anything you want. I'm not 'saving the world'... I'm eating in a way that makes me feel healthier and my doctor agrees, that is all.

I was just offering my opinion that we humans ARE designed to eat plants like greens, veggies and starches. We have evolved to do it over millions of years, and you can see it in our genes, esp the ones that show up uniquely in humans.

We haven't been eating meat long enough (and in enough quantity) to have adapted to it much. Carnivorous animals don't get heart attacks from eating meat and animal fat. Humans don't have the genes required to prevent that from happening.

 

[PaulOinMA]

We use very little salt in our cooking. Most food we get out taste very salty to us. VERY salty.

There's an Amazon tribe that doesn't use salt. Their collective blood pressure is remarkably low compared to our sodium-high diets.

Blood pressure and electrolyte excretion in the Yanomamo Indians, an isolated population - PubMed

As part of the INTERSALT study, blood pressure, urinary electrolytes, age, and body mass index were assessed in a sample of 195 Yanomamo Indians from the Brazilian Amazon. Mean sodium excretion was 0.9 mmol/24 hr. Urinary sodium was lower than 1 mmol/24 hr in 84% of participants. Mean blood...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Blood pressure, sodium intake, and sodium related hormones in the Yanomamo Indians, a "no-salt" culture - PubMed

The Yanomamo Indians are an unacculturated tribe inhabiting the tropical equatorial rain forest of northern Brazil and southern Venezuela who do not use salt in their diet. The group therefore presented an unusual opportunity to study the hormonal regulation of sodium metabolism in a culture...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

My wife typically does hot cocoa for breakfast five days a week. Dutch-processed cocoa, black cocoa, stevia. I do a Carnation Breakfast Essentials. We fast during the day one day a week. One day we do a more typical breakfast.

Lunch is salad with olive oil and vinegar. Can vary the vinegars. Salad dressing rarely to have something different. Greek yogurt with granola and dried cranberries. Fruit. Cheese.

Dinner is whatever we want.

Light 🍺 is keeping me from my desired weight.

There are two vo-tech schools with restaurants nearby. We're going to one of them for lunch today. Salad for dinner.

Vo-tech schools are great for lunch. Usually get two meals out of the entree. This week's menu: https://www.kteastsideroom.com/menu. Probably getting Tuscan chicken. This one also has a great bakery counter with fantastic prices.

I'll volunteer if they ever need help doing a follow-up studies in the Amazon.

He expressed his admiration for Penha, stating that she ignited his passion for photographing Brazilian Indians.

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