Major Chimney Problems. Conflicting Opinions. [Long Read]

[Charles1981]

After reading thru everything, one concern i have that nobody else brought up is the fact your clay tile is 10x14 and they want to remove it. There is tons of room in there to get a liner system with wrap down to the bottom.
Another concern is that allot of flex liner system are certified only with the clay tiles in place. Here in canada if the clay tiles are removed the liner system going back in has to be certified as a new lining system, not as a replacement liner.

The CSIA certified company with certified technicians told me without investigating the condition of the clay liner that it would be best to just remove the tiles due to the creosote in there. I am very wary of this recommendation and don't know how to feel about the fact that they we're not supportive of attempting to clean the chimney. But they said a line flex liner insulated would be just fine. So you think that this company will know what they are talking about. Right? Just like everyone else seems to know what they are talking about in my experience with this situation? I am honestly not so happy with anyone at this moment and they all have gotten money from me.

 

[bholler]

I completely agree. But I will see how the meeting goes and the condition of the liner finally is once its pulled out. I also need to look into the deductible for my homeowners insurance. Because it very well may not be worth the cost if there is a $1,000 deductible and I can have the job done for 1500 more. And if the insurance company increases my rate substantially. It could end up costing me a lot of money over 2 or 3 years in terms of insurance premiums

If it is determined that the fire was caused by his negligence many insurance companies will not make you pay your deductible or raise your rates. Many will also not raise your rates for one claim either.

Another concern is that allot of flex liner system are certified only with the clay tiles in place. Here in canada if the clay tiles are removed the liner system going back in has to be certified as a new lining system, not as a replacement liner.

What flex liners require the clay to be in place i have been doing this a long time and have never seen that stipulation at all.

 

[woodhog73]

In regards to insurance, and as someone who has spent many years working in the insurance industry ( they all handle claims a little differently so this is JUST my OPINION based on having worked in the industry)

.......when it comes to homeowner claims, and significant loss exposure ( fire ) they generally just " drop " you before raising your rates. Hopefully you notified your insurance company that there is a wood stove ? ( if you mentioned that sorry didn't read the entire post) If so your policy should be rated for that risk exposure, so therefore if you make a claim, generally your not going to see a rate increase. But it depends on your companies underwriting guidelines, and is possible to see a rate increase, but generally no, they just drop you or they won't renew your policy at end term.

If you make 2 claims I'm almost certain they will drop you, forcing you to find another insurer.

As for the deductible it depends. However if the installer is responsible, your insurance company will "attempt" to recover those funds through subrogation and if they are successful they have to refund you deductible. They are trying to recover the entire claim which includes the portion you paid. However get a room full of experts together to determine cause of a claim , you may get a room full of different explanations. When it comes to money , no one wants to pay it. if it's not black and white, as most claims are not, it could take months or years for the end result. Most insurance companies participate in inter company arbitration so disputed claims can be decided on quicker than the legal system would provide, so that you could possibly get your deductible back quicker.

This is ofcourse assuming the installer who made the mistake is insured ? I know that sounds crazy but I spent 10 plus years in claims and I've seen it all. If the responsible party is not insured , you probably can kiss the deductible good bye.

Sorry long explanation.

 

[Charles1981]

No that is great information. Upon all the other gd research I have been doing, the latest part is homeowners insurance now.

I really feel risk-reward for this claim is poor if I made it. There was no visible damage to the chimney structure or the house at this time. There are SIGNS of a chimney fire but the fire department was never called. The installation is poor but it would help if I could get straight answers from at least 2 of the 3 parties (two different sweeps and the installer...who when called on the phone said oh yea screws are fine even 3 - even though the GD installation manual says 4 rivets per section only). Maybe I should call the installation company back and see if I can't get something in writing (probably not other than the already available installation manual).

So I have plenty of information that contraindicates itself or others opinions. Even when it comes to what is best for cleaning or restarting over from scratch. Different opinions on screw use.Different opinions of if per-exisiting creosote cause the problems or if smoke was escaping the liner somehow.

The main thing I have is there is evidence of a fire obviously. The chimney isn't insulated and therefore isnt ul1777 listed. Even then the Ul1777 listing for this chimney requires 1 inch of air space to clearance to combustibles which was not achieved.

That honestly is HUGE but probably something the installer will fight. And at this time I feel it is worth it to pay out of pocket as contacting the insurance company may jeopardize my homeowners policy or cause me to pay more over the long term. It may be best suited for small claims court in the end based on everything I am looking into.

In the end if I get screwed over. I got screwed over. That just happens sometimes. But intuitively everyone is in agreement that he did a bad job and the fire was his fault. So you would think I have a very good case in claims.

Still going to let the installer remove the liner though as that will save me some money so I'm not charged labor for that. And it will give him a chance to see whats going on first hand. Seems to be the best I can do at this time.

 

[bholler]

Still going to let the installer remove the liner though as that will save me some money so I'm not charged labor for that. And it will give him a chance to see whats going on first hand. Seems to be the best I can do at this time.

I would not let him touch it especially if you are thinking about taking him to court. He put your life and that of your family at risk because he was to lazy to properly clean the chimney wrap a liner in insulation and use the proper fastener. I am sorry but some one who did that to me would never step foot in my house again.

 

[Charles1981]

I understand that. But The more time I have to think about the situation and what to do moving forward the less optimistic I am that there ill be a positive outcome here. At the least you would think when I laid allegations against him regarding everything that has been outlined here he could have been confrontational, denied everything, and hung up the phone. That didn't happen. He seems honestly concerned about the situation and if someone called you and you didn't get a chance to review the work yourself or the situation I bet you would be pretty upset. Especially if that person just came out and sued you.

I think this situation with the installer could be much worse. We have had a very civil conversation twice by phone. He wants to come out. He wants to see the situation. He wants to pull the liner and inspect it.

Lets say we pull the liner and there are 3 screws in every joint and there really doesn't appear to be a spot that has failed. (thus far there are some mild concerns about the clean out t sitting on the base of the fireplace, concerns about screws vs rivets, but no real inspection of the liner itself). Well then that would suggest that all of the creosote in there was left over from the original cleaning before the liner was placed. My personal opinion was that those clay tiles were pretty darn clean when the liner was dropped but maybe I am wrong. If not then the installer put a liner (or easy bake oven basically) down a chimney that he should have known wasn't clean enough. Ultimately if the liner was insulated, even if not to code this probably wouldn't have happened, but regardless the installation still wouldn't have been to code.

If there is some miracle and this guy recognizes the faults in his installation and backs it up that would be amazing. Am I expecting that. Not so much. But I feel that he probably should be given a chance despite everyone's resounding opposition to at least come out look at the situation first hand. Inspect his handiwork with me there. Allow him to view the concerns other companies have. Go over the installation instructions I have and see what his reaction is in person.

I only earn myself a one way ticket to paying out of pocket and getting to small claims court after hours of further work, time, and finances If I lose my cool and tell him to ship off.

I still always have the option of invoking my home owners insurance at that point as well but again there are many concerns and many facets to consider if that is necessary.

But I do know If I don't let him come out and look at it and pull the liner I only have pretty crappy options moving forward and maybe some good may come from the situation yet. Maybe. That's my take on the situation. I completely understand your stance though about never wanting to see the person again however.

 

[woodhog73]

I really should go back and read this entire thread . However just reading your last post in regards to filing a claim I have some additional input.

First off you don't need a fire department report to file a claim. If your insurance company utilizes agents (some sell direct ) and your agent tells you that you need a report, they are being lazy. You can go around your agent and file it directly with your insurer ( not the agent ) if needed.

When you file the claim, you are putting it on your insurance company to investigate the loss. They are not paying any kind of claim without investigation. You pay your premiums right? So rest assured you will be getting an investigation where they will hire their own professional to come look at the damage. Forget all the nonsense you hear about insurance companies not wanting to pay you, the insured, the customer. This is a 1st party claim for you with your carrier, and your insurance company has a contractual obligation to investigate and pay any legitimate claims. If you had a chimney fire, and you suspect the repairs are much higher than your deductible, you really have a legitimate reason to file a claim.

The stories you mostly hear about the big bad insurance company not paying are "almost" always 3rd party claims where you were wronged and trying to collect from the other persons insurance, not your own. Insurance companies sometimes take a long time to investigate claims.

As for your concern about the installer
" fighting " issues brought up , I'm sorry but unless the installer is paying out of pocket, or if it's a self insured scenario where the installer pays part of the claim himself, or if the installer has some type of liability deductible, in most cases that person would have very little input on what their insurance company decides on. If the loss involves risk to the insurance company, they will make their own decisions. And their insured ( the installer) has a duty to cooperate and report claims, incidents, etc. it's generally in the policy a duty to cooperate, etc. That's been my experience anyways. I'm not saying this is true in every case, but that's generally what I remember more often than not having worked in claims.

Think of auto accidents. How many times do disputed accidents occur? You may be certain it was the other guys fault, and the other guy thinks it's your fault. So you both have your car repaired under your own insurance. Then the insurance companies fight it out behind the scenes and each usually ends up settling on recovering 50% of damages. Or some other percentage based on the circumstances ( and even the state you live in) Then as the claim adjuster I would get a call saying " why did you pay for 50% of their damages ? " well I did because we can't prove it was the other guys fault, sorry.

Lastly if you really are concerned about filing a claim for fear of increased rates, and wish to pursue in small claims , don't forget to value your time and frustration. For me I would have to take time out from work, which is lost income. Plus time to drive to court, etc. add that up and weigh it against any negatives of filing with your insurance.

 

[woodhog73]

I still always have the option of invoking my home owners insurance at that point as well but again there are many concerns and many facets to consider if that is necessary.

Tread lightly here. If your thinking you may file a claim with your insurance company, I would suggest not tearing apart anything , and letting your insurance company completely investigate this. They will bring their own professional. Paid for by your insurance company. Your premiums not only pay to insure your house , but also for any experts they hire. Furthermore they will make certain the repairs are in accordance with code and that it's done correctly. So you end up with what you want , a repair that's safe and done correctly.

The insurance company goes into any claim knowing they may be pursuing another responsible party. If you start tearing the system apart, they may have a problem with that.

Also read your policy carefully. Most likely their is a clause that states you have a duty to file claims timely, and to protect the insured property from further damage ( not letting the at fault installer start tearing stuff out may fit in this category)

Just food for thought

 

[Charles1981]

Well that is food for thought. I am not sure what to do. But again I see the points you are making as well. This whole situation is FUBAR. I'll keep thinking about it tonight and see what needs to be done.

 

[woodhog73]

No one can tell you what to do or make the decision for you. I wish you luck.

However I think ( at least for me it would) hinge on my financial situation and the costs your seeing to make the repairs. If money is no issues and you simply don't want to file a claim, then find the most qualified experienced sweep/installer and pay the price to have it fixed. If you think you were wronged by the original installer, I suppose you could try small claims for recovery of your money ??

But if money is an issue, and the repairs are likely far more than your deductible, most folks I know would probably file a claim, let their insurance company handle it. They will put you in touch with a qualified sweep / repair person that they have approved their credentials and reviewed their prior work. Or you can use your own sweep /repair person but the insurance company will make sure a qualified person on their end is involved with writing the repair estimate , and inspecting it's repaired according to proper procedures, regardless of who does the work. Trust me the insurance company wants it done right. They don't want you to have another claim, it costs them money.

Like I've mentioned, you might not even see a rate increase anyways. In all likelihood if it's your 1st claim, and you are rated for a wood stove, you have a better chance of NOT having a premium increase than you do of having a rate increase.

Good luck

 

[Charles1981]

Well guys you encouraged me to contact my insurance company. You gave me some hope. I chewed on your stuff.

Well it failed. Miserably. I have Geico insurance and its provided by liberty mutual. Within 3 minutes of the phone call the lady on the phone told me flat. They will not cover this. They do not cover faulty workman ship. Then I started to get agitated but not really. No foul language anything like that. And she hung up on me.

This could not have gone more poorly. So I am left to my original plan. As my only options are to hope the installer has some integrity. And then I am left with small claims.

 

[woodhog73]

No no no.....was the person a receptionist ? ( no disrespect to anyone that is a receptionist it's just they usually have zero authority and have zero zilch no authority in a claims department of an insurance company ) Just tell them their is evidence of a chimney fire. Fire in the house is a covered loss . The correct terminology is covered " peril" which is the fire.

Let's say I have a new ceiling fan put in. Let's say the person doing it didn't wire it correctly . Let's say it starts a fire and your house burns down . It was the result of a faulty install of the ceiling fan. Doesn't matter if the house is burning down. The house is insured! Period. The insurance company is not going to tell you sorry we won't pay for your burned down house try calling the electrician who installed the fan. In the meantime pitch a tent in your yard till you rebuild. No they will insure the damage, put you up in a rental house, replace your belongings ( to the extent you have them covered) etc etc , then they will go after the guy that installed the ceiling fan wrong and wired it wrong causing the fire .

If you wish to make a claim, then call the claims department ( not the 24 hour customer service number) tell whoever you speak too that you are filing a claim. Chimney fire with damage resulting. A masonry chimney is considered a permanent part of the house structure therefore it falls under the homeowner policy. If your chimney falls over in a high windstorm, it's covered. Etc. it's covered as much as your walls are, your roof is, etc etc

If a fire damages your walls, structure, roof, kitchen fire caused by you burning the steak and grease splatters igniting the kitchen ceiling, etc it's covered. why is that any different than damage to a masonry chimney due to fire ? If the damage is confined only to the liner or the appliance, as a result of faulty install that may be a different story as those are maintenance items and not permanent. But if fire smokes my chimney somehow, fire is a covered loss in every policy I've ever heard off.

It's not the phone operators place to make that decision over the phone. That's a claims examiners decision. In many states that's why claims people have to be state licensed .

It's Friday. Some people answering phones must be thinking they don't have to work today.

The person on the phone can't say it's faulty installation unless a professional has inspected it. Don't volunteer that. Simply tell them you have evidence of a chimney fire.

Now I can't guarantee they will pay the claim. But in many cases chimney fires are covered losses.

If they end up not paying anything and saying it's not covered ( after they investigated and can determine it's not covered after looking at it ) .....well no money was paid so still I can't see a rate increase anyways.

I'm sure there are professional sweeps and contractors on these forums that have done chimney repairs that were involved with insurance claims. Perhaps some even have been paid by the insurance company directly.

When I was in the business I was a desk adjuster handling the money. I paid contractors all the time for work they did to a house or car as a result of a claim and a covered loss. I didn't know much about the repair but that wasn't my place, if it was a covered peril ( fire) as long as the contractors were certified and everything seemed inline with normal prices, I paid them.

 

[Charles1981]

This was the claims department. They said if the fire was due to faulty work as my two other inspecctions claim than the work Will not be covered. If it was somehow covered no matter the cause it is still 1000 deductible. I called back. A new person told me the same. I can try and make a claim....but they won't cover any damage found to be at cause from faulty workmanship... And again. They keep asking me what damage was done to the house. And there has been no damage. They ask what the current recommendations are front the current sweeps I called and it is replacement and cleaning only. The bounty told me without obvious damage to the house And current recommendation to only replace a faulty liner that this will not be covered. I can still file a claim but the deductible will ne need to be met.

Like I was worried involving my insurance is a joke. I was hopeful but in the future I will have to look into getting a different insurance company...but I have a feeling they will be similar.

 

[woodhog73]

Ok I didn't read the entire thread. If there's no damage to the " permanent structure" then it makes sense their not going to pay for a cleaning and new liner.

But if the fire somehow damaged the brick chimney it would be a different story. That's why they keep asking you if there is any damage to the house. And if there if no damage to the house then sure there seems to be no claim to make anyways.

Sorry I should have read the entire thread start to finish.

But just know, if you have a chimney fire, and it causes your house to burn down, it damages something that is a permenant part of the structure, etc or even if you get smoke damage inside that ruins the walls etc, it would be "unimaginable " to not file a claim.

Tough situation your in. Hopefully you can get somewhere with the installer. If not you could perhaps pay an attorney to write a letter demanding he pay for proper repair? Just a thought. Most small family attorneys won't charge you much to simply send a letter I wouldn't think. Perhaps it will get things done.

Good luck

 

[bholler]

Like I was worried involving my insurance is a joke. I was hopeful but in the future I will have to look into getting a different insurance company...but I have a feeling they will be similar.

Tell you insurance company that you had a chimney fire and you do not know if there where any unseen damages. They will in that case have to pay for a full level 3 inspection and when that is done the sweep doing the inspection will inform them that the install done by another pro was unsafe and they need to do it right. I have been the inspector on many of these cases before and then served as an expert witness in court against the original installer. In all cases the insurance covered the new install to bring it up to code.

 

[huauqui]

I am sure you are doing this but just in case you need to document everything. A video camera prior to and during the removal of the liner is your best friend. You need clear evidence of whatever is happening or has happened. Take many pictures prior to ever having the original installer coming out. Document everything he does or even touches during his time there. Do not leave him alone with the stove pipe. If the inspectors that were there have video from when they sent their phone down the chimney get copies of that video.

huauqui

 

[Charles1981]

We have lots of video. Photos. Installation instructions. I've called the manufacturer. I have two written sweep reports. 2 estimates. A video of the camera down the chimney that didn't really show much. At this point it needs to get pulled. In at the level of not really caring too much about anything other than getting the chimney our and getting the flue cleaned and a new liner installed. I will be getting video and photos when it is pulled. Just need to move on at this point... Get back to burning safely and will arrange everything into a small claims presentation if necessary.

No intention of dealing with the homeowners insurance anymore. Not one bit.

 

[begreen]

Regardless of who does the repair, if using the old liner, be sure they use stainless steel rivets when putting the liner back in. There are steel and aluminum pop rivets that would not be appropriate for this installation. As far as the insulation wrap goes, I'm with bholler. 1/2" is standard.

 

[huauqui]

This must be so frustrating for you. Just when you really need to be burning the stove is down. I hope you can find a quick resolution and then get back to enjoying the stove which is the way it should be.

 

[Charles1981]

the old liner just isn't to code. even with insulation its 1 inch to clearance... it can't go back in there.

Thanks for all the support though. Not the good kind of adventure/learning experience... but still an experience.

 

[Charles1981]

Not that anyone really wants to watch a 16 minute video of a phone going down my liner very slowly... But I did record a video that I think is pretty good. Really IMO though doesn't show much except that it appears each section is connected. There are obviously only 2 screws per section along the entire length. But otherwise I didn't record any obvious gross disconnects of the liners or any major defects. I guess this could provide further evidence that all the creosote in the chimney was from a poor cleaning before the installer dropped the liner... But dang...

I think all the areas that look like rust are just where the creosote refracts the LED light...

If anyone watches and has any other input that is awesome.. but I don't expect anyone to watch 17 minutes of hot inside liner action.

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[Charles1981]

Installer is coming out at 9am tomorrow so another update soon in this .... live journal. ugg.

 

[Charles1981]

So the installer came out. Removed the liner. No real signs of any problems with smoke escaping the liner. Just not following manufacturer instructions regarding rivets and only using 2 screws per section. It mostly appears that the problem had to have been left over creosote from the original sweep who the contractor recommends. I have the original sweep report that says there is minimal glazing left on the flue. No one ever recommended mechanical or chemical cleaning .. the installer dropped the pipe down un-insulated blah blah.

Anyway the best we could agree on is that he will order Duravent 304L Flex liner with 1/2 inch insulation and wire mesh and install that at no charge.

He won't pay the cleaning fees however. Unfortunately I think this is going to be the best situation we can manage. I'm out a few hundred more dollars for the cleaning, but its better than trying to involve the home owners insurance and its better than suing.

I do have all this in a written contract that he signed. So again he seems like a good guy but he won't really listen to well to much of what others are repeated saying about his methods. But he is willing to install what we want at no charge.

He still thinks for some reason that the flex liner is going to get punctured or break in 4-5 years down the road... I don't understand why.....

But hopefully be back to burning in the next 1-2 weeks.

Anyone have any concerns regarding Duravent 304L Flex Liner? He seems to think the 304L is thicker than the 316? But it appears he can order either. I told him not to order anything until I speak with the cleaning company as to what they recommend be installed. He would be ordering the Pro-Foil 1/2 inch insulation, Alufoil Tape and Promesh.

 

[huauqui]

Sounds like very good news and when finished you will sleep much better. Will let someone in the know respond concerning the new liner. Very happy things are mostly worked out and that you can be back up and running soon.

 

[Charles1981]

So this is about 2 hours into the clean without cleaning the smoke chamber yet. About 1 and 1/2 5gallon buckets worth of creosote that was as I explained previously... lining my chimney liner....

The sweep company stopped and wanted me to get photos as they haven't see anything like this ever.

They feel like this amount had to escape from the liner. But they looked at the liner and don't see how smoke could have been escaping from it either. So that leaves previously unswept creosote from the original clean before the liner was every dropped. But they are flabbergasted that much could have been left behind and someone not said anything.

They are still down there getting more out.