Major Chimney Problems. Conflicting Opinions. [Long Read]

[Charles1981]

I am pretty sure its 25 feet of Heat Fab 304. That said. Joints fail. At the bottom of the cleanout T are some rivets that I think fell during installation and dropped down. It is pretty clear though that at least one and maybe more sections are not properly fastened together and screws were definitely used. The worse part is that every screw at the bottom I have tried to get out will not back on. Just spins and spins. I have to pull on the screw while unscrewing to get it seated such that it will "back" out. Its going to be a groan to remove IMO.

I wanted a Flex liner to start and allowed myself to be talked out of it.

Now that we are pretty sure the cause is going to be some kind of joint failure but maybe something else both myself and my wife really want a seamless flex liner. I think insulating the Heat Fab pipe is a good idea but hey...its already failed us once and to me it seems like its going to be a real pain to insulate 25 feet of non-flexible liner in an efficient manner. It seems so much easier to insulate a flex liner and drop it down.

I'm hoping I can convince the installer to take the damn pipe. Use it to install in someone else's chimney as he does so frequently, and install flex liner. I am also going to attempt to get him to pay for whatever cleaning is necessary as well as the the DOCTOR FLU's inspection cost. He has thus far seemed like a stand up guy with a long standing reputation in the area and genuinely seems concerned about the situation.

That said I haven't started talking to him about sending him the bill for any of this yet. I feel he probably knows that is coming but before I approach the subject I need to know as much as possible before I do so. My wife on the other hand wants to fly off the handle and doesn't understand why I am not losing my s at the installer yet. But In my line of work you learn you get much farther not getting worked up and approaching things civil. If anything starts to turn into a heated debate I will just back off in person and follow through legally at a distance unfortunately. But again the installer is thus far being very cooperative.

 

[Squisher]

As to the self-install vs a company. I self installed and then payed to have a certified installer inspect my install. All on the up and up with my insurer. So installing yourself doesn't mean you're left uninsured or assuming all the liability yourself. But in the end if you're not confident about doing it or don't want to then by all means don't but as you've already experienced just because you're paying a 'pro' in no way insures you're getting a top notch install.

Joints fail yes, but rigid sectional liners are in use safely installed all over the place. I would have no issue with one myself if it could've fit into my chimney. I suspect that once you start talking to the original contractor about paying for these other companies work that his tune is going to change so I would wait until he's pulled the liner and proposed what he may in fact do for you before bringing that up yourself.

Edit. Also if you're having trouble backing out stripped screws you just need to put a flathead screwdriver in behind the head and 'pry' outwards slightly while backing the screw out at the same time.

 

[bholler]

As to the self-install vs a company. I self installed and then payed to have a certified installer inspect my install. All on the up and up with my insurer.

That depends on the insurer. And you also have to find a contractor that will sign off on an install they didnt do. That means they are taking on the liability without the profit. It just does not make sense.

So installing yourself doesn't mean you're left uninsured or assuming all the liability yourself.

Not necessarily uninsured but the liability does fall on the installer in many cases


As far as the rigid liner i agree there is absolutely nothing wrong with them if they are installed properly. And if you are comparing them to light wall flex they are much more durable. heavy wall they are about the same durability wise.

 

[Squisher]

The liability should lie with the installer to insure that it was installed to meet code as I read you stress quite often. It amazes me that so many installers are doing installs that don't meet code. As you say in the event of property loss or worse how does the liability not extend back to them?

 

[bholler]

As you say in the event of property loss or worse how does the liability not extend back to them?

As a sweep who installs allot of stoves liners ect i can tell you yes the liability falls on us and our insurance that is why our insurance is as high as it is

 

[Squisher]

Yes it makes sense that to me that the liability extends back to installers and sweeps. I'm just a,aged by how many stories of shoddy workmanship that I've read of on-line. It would seem to me that it's not something that people should take lightly and just be looking to turn dollars and not actually knowing if or how the setups they're installing are going to work safely.

 

[bholler]

It would seem to me that it's not something that people should take lightly and just be looking to turn dollars and not actually knowing if or how the setups they're installing are going to work safely.

yes i agree we always treat it as if it was our house with our kids living there

 

[BrotherBart]

Try being a Y2K computer systems consultant back in 1999 and your liability insurance agent saying "But if what you tell them to do and they do it and a major bank, which was one of my clients, loses billions?" Told him to cancel my policy. I knew the way to the airport and had a passport...

But if the joint burns down the reality is that the insurance company is just gonna pay the loss. Hell, they pay if the homeowner blew it and burned the joint down. Costs to much to fight it in most cases.

 

[Charles1981]

I was pretty sure from the start a gd flex liner with insulation was a pretty darn simple task in a flue 10x14

I was over-ruled from the start by the wife and by instructions for our home insurance of it needing to be installed by a professional company. That still holds true unfortunately. I still think I could install the dang thing.

 

[bholler]

But if the joint burns down the reality is that the insurance company is just gonna pay the loss.

That is true many times but they also go after the installer many times. Believe me We have been sued (and won by the way) and served as an expert witness several times. There are some companies that will try really hard to avoid paying a claim. And others that pay with little to no questions asked at all

 

[Charles1981]

Doctor Flue visited. I feel they have more knowledge regarding code and chimneys but overall a very similar opinion but with once major difference I guess that I was questioning.

1. They downloaded the liner installation guide that is there. Rivets are required. All four rivets at every section. There is mostly 2 screws only at each section holding the liner sections together. Screws are not listed anywhere in the install instructions.

2. There seems to be a gray area as the both installers don't feel the clean out T should be on the ground supporting the structure, pictures of installation show the T not on the ground but there really isn't clear statements regarding either way. The installation does say the pipe will expand and contract vertically with heating and cooling. The clean out t rests on the ground, there is a adhered block off plate at the top. So if it expands vertically it will naturally force the adhered silicone or whatever to fail.

3. Everyone agrees the liner SHOULD have been insulated. That said there may be some gray area in the installation instructions:

"Saf-T Wrap is a safe, high quality, easy to install ceramic insulation jacket for stainless steel lined masonry chimneys. Saf-T Wrap when used in conjunction with SafT Liner will upgrade a chimney to an HT type chimney system."

But I don't understand what an HT type chimney system is.

The instructions detail installing the wrap around the liner. But no where does it necessarily outline that is required. May have to call the manufacturer.

4. Another concern is that the Liner installation requires 2 inches of air space from combustibles from the masonry chimney. Obvious I don't have that. That said there is no statement that the 2 inches of air space changes because you have the SafT liner installed. So that makes me concerned if the Liner and Ceramic Wrap are even code if installed based on the installation instructions. Again not outlined at all in the instructions.

5. Here is the big one: Doctor Flue wants to knock out the Clay Flu Liner and install an insulated flex liner. The other chimney company felt that mechanical (Drill with "soft chains" and chemical cleaning) was sufficient but I also trust Doctor Flue more, but feel that maybe removing the clay flue liner could be excessive. Any thoughts?

6. Here is another issue. Doctor Flue believes the massive amounts of creosote outside the liner was due to creosote that was still there at the time of installation. I have discussed already that when we purchased the house there was glazed creosote in the clay flue. The before and after cleaning was dramatic but I never took pictures. You could see most of the clay liner...there was some light glazing that couldn't be entirely removed. I am upset as probably a chemical clean at that time would have been a good idea, but was not encouraged or recommended.

I personally feel that the amount of glazing left behind could not have possibly cause this much creosote buildup when it ignited and expanded pyrolyzed. They feel that based on draft and inspection that there isn't a big enough visible problem with the liner for smoke to have escaped outside of the liner. They just don't feel that is physically possible as we never have noted smoke in the house.

This is where I know what they mean but still am a little skeptical. There is so much puffed out creosote around the liner I can't believe that the small amount of glazing left behind after initial cleaning 3 years ago could have cause that. But I am NOT the expert.

7. Doctor Flue wants a lot of money. I am willing to pay. But I don't have a good idea how to move forward.

A. I could request the installer pull the liner then have the first company (whose young "tech" couldn't identify SS liner) chemically and mechanically clean the clay flue. And offer to have the installer replace it with insulated flex liner. (Seems ok but involves multiple parties). So long as everyone felt that the creosote was adequately removed. The chimney company said that they would clean it so you couldn't see ANY creosote left behind...

Option I consider most likely to occur if the installer will back up his shoddy install.

B. Have the installer pull the liner, Have Dr. Flue knock out the clay tiles, have installer install flex liner.

Meh Another Option, I'm still not hot about knocking out the clay tiles...but maybe that is best.

C. Have Doctor Flue do everything, Send the installer the bill, and then likely have to deal with small claims.

D. Same as C but potentially involve my insurance company which I am VERY leery of getting involved with. I don't like insurance companies and feel they are just out to get you. Especially when it comes to fire, wood stoves ect.


Just wondering what opinions every one has here. Thanks for reading!

 

[Charles1981]

BTW I am still waiting for Doctor Flue to answer a swath of questions by email that I put together based on this thread. So There will likely be more updates to follow.

 

[bholler]

Well they seem to be right about everything as far as i can tell
1. Yeah rivets only some require 3 some 4 it depends on the liner
2. As far as i know there is nothing saying you cant do that but i would avoid it if possible.
3. If you dont have the required clearance it is required.
4. With 1/2" wrap you no longer need clearance
5. What size if your flue? we break out regularly but only if there is an issue with room for insulation.
6. I agree totally

D. Same as C but potentially involve my insurance company which I am VERY leery of getting involved with. I don't like insurance companies and feel they are just out to get you. Especially when it comes to fire, wood stoves ect.

You had a chimney fire in between the 2 liners because of the original installers negligence. I would submit it to your insurance and your insurance will go after him. I would absolutely not let him work on your house at all. He screwed up way to many things.

 

[Charles1981]

Well they seem to be right about everything as far as i can tell
1. Yeah rivets only some require 3 some 4 it depends on the liner
2. As far as i know there is nothing saying you cant do that but i would avoid it if possible.
3. If you dont have the required clearance it is required.
4. With 1/2" wrap you no longer need clearance
5. What size if your flue? we break out regularly but only if there is an issue with room for insulation.
6. I agree totally

You had a chimney fire in between the 2 liners because of the original installers negligence. I would submit it to your insurance and your insurance will go after him. I would absolutely not let him work on your house at all. He screwed up way to many things.

4. This is big bold in the Saf-T guide

WARNING! Do not use any loose fill, cementious, or blanket insulation thicker than 1/4 inch equivalent refractory ceramic fiber. These products void the Saf-T Liner and may create unsafe conditions resulting in damage to the masonry chimney and/or the liner system.

Doesn't this mean 1/2 inch insulation is out of the question and that the Saft wrap is only 1/4 inch?

5. Flu size is 10x14 inch. Its monstrous.

6. You totally agree it was old creosote? I swear that chimney looked damn clean after initial sweeping. But I can't rule it out completely. Or you totally agree that smoke was leaking from the liner somehow? I have a VC Encore and I have talked in the past about how AWFUL my wife is at running it. Very frequently she throws logs in onto very little coals and then closes the stove way to fast. I can't count the number of times we have had to talk about smoldering fires. I am wondering if she could potentially be partially responsible with shutting down a down draft stove, smoldering fire, cutting the draft so much that it gives it a chance to leak out a poor joint? Doctor Flue would not necessarily comment on this potential scenario.

Finally, I am just very leery of involving the insurance and worry about getting dropped, having a major increase in insurance payments and dealing with any possible drop in coverage and having to find a new company and now us have a poor home owner record.

I can pay for all of this in cash no problem. And I was considering small claims court if necessary.

I still feel like I will let him pull the liner at least and maybe have the other company mechanically clean and chemically then install a liner. This will at least get him to the house. Look at his liner and I can talk in person with him. I don't particularly want him installing another liner.

I would like Doctor Flue to do it, but I am also leery of removing the flue tiles. And they were hardcore about knocking out those tiles. Which I am sure is substantial to the cost. I am asking for a itemized estimate which they did not provide.

 

[Charles1981]

The Saf-T Liner factory-built Chimney Liner system is Tested and Listed by Underwriters Laboratories for use with Listed fuel-burning equipment that produce continuous flue-gas temperatures not above 1000°F when properly insulated with Saf-T Wrap® Chimney Liner Insulation. The system is to be installed per manufacturers’ instructions.
The Saf-T Liner system is fabricated from .024” thick (24 gauge) Type 304L or Type 316L stainless steel, which is suited for use with solid fuel and older oil or gas fired equipment that does not produce condensation in the vent.
All joints in the Saf-T Liner system are fastened with stainless-steel blind rivets. All seams are continuous-resistance welded. The recommended Saf-T Wrap Chimney Liner Insulation system, consisting of 8-pound density ceramic fiber insulation adhered to a jacket of .024” aluminum, allows the system to be installed in solid 4” nominal masonry chases with a 1” clearance from the masonry to surrounding combustibles

Based in this statement... it seems that Saf-T liner with wrap is only rated up to 1000F... which I shouldn't be achieving but I also know there were some over fire events in the past when first using the stove but we have gotten very good at never seeing black pipe or stove top temps at or above 650.

Also it seems pretty clear the liner and wrap only give you 1 inch clearance...which I don't have. So it seems the whole liner even with wrap is not to code based on the last sentence.. Right?

That said I'm sure when reloading some of that liner probably goes about 1000??? when the bypass is open... But never ever have we seen any glowing red...
so again I don't know.

 

[Charles1981]

By The Way Bholler, thanks so much for your input. You have been an amazing help and I really appreciate it. You are really going above and beyond so thanks again.

 

[bholler]

I would call the company every other liner manufacturer uses 1/2" wrap and that achieves 0/0 clearance with 4" of masonry. which means the liner can touch the inside of the chimney and combustibles can touch the outside. But if they don't allow that then i would get a new liner.
About the insurance why do you pay it every month if you are not going to use it when you need it. That is the way i look at it atleast.

 

[Charles1981]

I pay it because its the law as we couldn't pay cash for the house, but regardless I would pay it anyway for things out of my control and out of my ability to pay. If I can resolve the issue along outside channels I will. I look at it this way. Right now there are 4-5 parties: Me, Installer, possibly the original chimney sweep (but I doubt he will get involved as he just cleaned the chimney before the liner was even ever put in) and two chimney sweep companies. If I have to include the insurance company things get even more complicated than they are and I hear horror stories regarding insurance companies all the time.

If the installer will remove the line and pay for someone else to fix mess we have left I will do that. If not I am considering involving the insurance company but may speak with a lawyer first. Again like I said and this comes back to political reasons. I don't trust the insurance company one bit or the institutions behind it. You can guess which way I lean politically.

 

[bholler]

Not trusting insurance companies is not political at all. I don't trust them either but i have worked with them enough i know how this type of think works.

 

[jb6l6gc]

my issue with insurance companies is a soon as you have a claim they have a reason to jack your premiums or not renew your policy. Then you are S.O.L. when you go to switch as you've had a claim. All depends on your company though. This whole thread once again reminds me why I hate hiring most so called pro's out there. This comment doesn't include you ben. You have gotta be the most helpful pro on this forum.

 

[2broke2ride]

This is honestly my only hang up to installing my own liner in the spring, I'm very nervous about not getting the current one clean enough so I might just hire the job done.

 

[Charles1981]

Well I called Selkirk the manufacturer of the Heat Fab Saf T Liner. Apparently without the Saf T wrap insulation the liner is not UL1777 approved/listed. The installer seems skeptical of the claims made by the other companies thus far and seems to want to question even the manufactures requirements even though I discussed I had talked to them in person. He also doesn't seem to be aware of clearance to combustibles regarding masonry chimneys. He still seems genuinely concerned about the situation but wants to remove the liner before he makes any judgments.

That said, we have tentatively schedule to meet up and have him come Monday to remove the Liner. So more updates in that regards to follow. But I really am starting to get the feeling the installer doesn't want to accept that his installation was in any way to blame but he isn't accusatory and I am sure on his end he is probably frustrated that someone is calling him 3 years later saying his chimney install is wrong on almost every level especially if "he has been doing it this way for over 30 years".

Other Updates Regarding the Liner after speaking with the manufacturer include:
1. Regarding the screws vs rivets, while the instructions say rivets the technician at the manufacturer said 3 screws or rivets per section was fine
2. The technician was flabbergasted that there was signs of fire and creosote outside the chimney liner. He said it could be possible for the liner to be compromised somehow and smoke to escape or that it could have been residual creosote...But since the liner hasn't been removed and its full length has not yet been fully evaluated we can't really say one way or another for sure I guess.
3. I don't know how the Installer can defend the 1 inch air clearance to combustibles installation if the saf-T wrap was installed as listed. He was talking about how he assumed the chimney was built to code or that it was build in 1971 when codes might have been different. That said I explained to him but codes change for safety reasons and I suspect that there were not different in 2013 and he said I think some of those codes may have recently changed AFTER he installed the liner...uh huh.
4. The installer seems to be confident he has 3 screws in every section but The other companies have said it appears that some sections only have 2 (not that I think this Is a huge FUBAR.) But again should be easily determined once the liner is pulled.

The installer doesn't seem too concerned that everyone else thinks it is wrong to have the clean out T bottom clean out portion resting on the masonry chimney base as he claims to support the chimney when everyone thus far stats the top block off plate (which is installed) should be responsible for supporting the chimney.

He really didn't have a response thus far about the fiberglass insulation he used and the fact that melted...

I am starting to feel that having him pull the liner isn't going to achieve a substantial resolution to my concerns and he will have many excuses, but I can't say so for sure. He keeps repeating that he has been installing these chimneys for 30 plus years and this would be his first complain but that sounds like one for the ages.

At least on Monday hopefully the liner will be out and then I can determine if the installer will accept any responsibility and based on that move forward with getting the chimney cleaned and a flex liner with insulation installed.

 

[bholler]

He keeps repeating that he has been installing these chimneys for 30 plus years and this would be his first complain but that sounds like one for the ages.

I am sorry but if you work in any field for 30+ years you are going to have more than 1 complaint. I have to call bs on that. As far as the codes changing since the install that is bs also and regardless heatfabs instructions about that insulation or their ul listing requirements have not changed. The screws versus rivets thing screws will wallow out and start to fall out in a few years. Rivits wont start to for much longer.

 

[skinanbones]

After reading thru everything, one concern i have that nobody else brought up is the fact your clay tile is 10x14 and they want to remove it. There is tons of room in there to get a liner system with wrap down to the bottom.
Another concern is that allot of flex liner system are certified only with the clay tiles in place. Here in canada if the clay tiles are removed the liner system going back in has to be certified as a new lining system, not as a replacement liner.

 

[Charles1981]

I am sorry but if you work in any field for 30+ years you are going to have more than 1 complaint. I have to call bs on that. As far as the codes changing since the install that is bs also and regardless heatfabs instructions about that insulation or their ul listing requirements have not changed. The screws versus rivets thing screws will wallow out and start to fall out in a few years. Rivits wont start to for much longer.

I completely agree. But I will see how the meeting goes and the condition of the liner finally is once its pulled out. I also need to look into the deductible for my homeowners insurance. Because it very well may not be worth the cost if there is a $1,000 deductible and I can have the job done for 1500 more. And if the insurance company increases my rate substantially. It could end up costing me a lot of money over 2 or 3 years in terms of insurance premiums