Lopi Flex95 insert questions.....
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Well yes if marco signs off on it then yes it would not be a violation of code but the fact that the plate says no inserts I seriously doubt they will. I honestly have yet to see or hear of a single fireplace manufacturer changing the instruction on a fireplace to allow it. And I have asked quite a few and know of many others who have as well.
Tag says ********Do not use a fireplace insert or other products not specified for this model.******* Y'all want to argue with the manufacturer of the insert that SPECIFICALLY NAMES MARCO & UL 127 in their install manual??? I'm sure their lawyers have researched this top to bottom as they are a rather large company with a lot on the line. The tag does NOT say Marco has to specify it.
FYI, Looked at a BUNCH of manuals for fireplaces tonight. They all have the same verbiage on the tags. Industry common disclaimer i would guess. NONE of the tags say they themselves have to specify the insert. This is just like an auto MFG giving certain specs for motor oil. Does your car owners manual say you can only use (insert mfg here) branded oil? does it list manufacturers? Or does it give you specs to follow?? UL 127 are the spec i will follow................
FYI, Looked at a BUNCH of manuals for fireplaces tonight. They all have the same verbiage on the tags. Industry common disclaimer i would guess. NONE of the tags say they themselves have to specify the insert. This is just like an auto MFG giving certain specs for motor oil. Does your car owners manual say you can only use (insert mfg here) branded oil? does it list manufacturers? Or does it give you specs to follow?? UL 127 are the spec i will follow................
Read the tag on page 3, Then read the manual top right page 6. https://builderspecialties.net/site...-_Owner_s_Manual_-_Woodburning_Fireplaces.pdf
Travis industries page 2. Same disclaimer and also says DO NOT use gas logs but DOES NOT specifically say you can't use a wood insert.
(broken link removed to http://www.fireplacesplus.com/manuals/wood/elite_44_install.pdf?lbisphpreq=1)
(broken link removed to http://www.fireplacesplus.com/manuals/wood/elite_44_install.pdf?lbisphpreq=1)
No but the ul listing does say it. It is very clear that any and all accessories to be used with the listed system be tested with it during the listing process. Have you read the UL listing? Have you been to classed taught by those who write the listings or design the testing?
Unless you get marco to sign off on it in writing you will be violating code.
Quadrafire, Same thing. SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUT unvented gas logs set, Does NOT call out an insert. Just make sure what you use is specified for use with it. Page 2 (broken link removed to http://www.mortonsstoves.com/wp-content/uploads/Quadra-Fire-7100-Manual.pdf)
What does the listing say??? In order to be an approved accessory for a ul listed appliance that accessory needs to be tested with the system by a ul approved lab. I am sorry if you dont want to hear it but that is how it is.
Page 3 in the middle, These guys SPECIFICALLY SAY they have to approve what is used.
"The BIS Tradition CE fireplace is NOT intended for use with a gas log set. Do not use a fireplace insert or any other product with this fireplace unless it is specified by Lennox for use with this appliance."
http://woodstoves.net/documents/Lennox/BIS-TraditionCE-Installation.pdf
"The BIS Tradition CE fireplace is NOT intended for use with a gas log set. Do not use a fireplace insert or any other product with this fireplace unless it is specified by Lennox for use with this appliance."
http://woodstoves.net/documents/Lennox/BIS-TraditionCE-Installation.pdf
I do this for a living I have read all of those manuals and many more there are only a few zc units tat allow for inserts and those only allow for ones tested in that unit by a ul lab. I have been to atleast 20 classes and seminars on the issue taught by many different industry personnel. I know and understand the issues. Yes most are related to liability but there are always safety questions as well.
The reality of it is that it may be safe. From a manufacturers standpoint, why would they spend the money to test their unit to be approved with each and every fireplace insert on the market? There's 0 money in it for them, only expense. They will not spend the time or the money to have it approved. Not to mention, the majority of these prefab manufacturers have gone out of business before the inserts were even made. It's a very grey area...
Absolutely correct it is a grey area unless like this one it clearly says you cant use an insert or accessory which is not approved. They then go on in the manuals to list all of the approved accessories and not a single insert there. No grey area in this case.
So answer my earlier question. With all the lawyers Innovative Hearth Products likely has, How can this be printed in the manual??????
"This appliance can only be installed in the following brands of factory-built zero clearance fireplaces: IHP, SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR, MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY, MARCO, TEMCO and FMI. The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914 mm) in width, 21” (533 mm) in height and 14” (356 mm) in depth. Installation in larger size fireboxes of the same brands is permissible. Installations into other brands of the same size is permissible only with approval from local building officials. Modifications allowed to the factory-built fireplace are as follows:
- Remove the damper
- Remove the smoke shelf or smoke baffle
- Remove ember catches - Remove viewing screen/curtain
- Remove side and rear bricks - Remove the fire grate
- Remove doors
Page 12 for your reference....... (broken link removed to http://ironstrike.us.com/system/document_files/files/000/000/332/original/900099-00_B_IRN_C160_Wood_Insert_EN_IICO.pdf?1480965640)
"This appliance can only be installed in the following brands of factory-built zero clearance fireplaces: IHP, SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR, MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY, MARCO, TEMCO and FMI. The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914 mm) in width, 21” (533 mm) in height and 14” (356 mm) in depth. Installation in larger size fireboxes of the same brands is permissible. Installations into other brands of the same size is permissible only with approval from local building officials. Modifications allowed to the factory-built fireplace are as follows:
- Remove the damper
- Remove the smoke shelf or smoke baffle
- Remove ember catches - Remove viewing screen/curtain
- Remove side and rear bricks - Remove the fire grate
- Remove doors
Page 12 for your reference....... (broken link removed to http://ironstrike.us.com/system/document_files/files/000/000/332/original/900099-00_B_IRN_C160_Wood_Insert_EN_IICO.pdf?1480965640)
Seems to me that an accessory is by definition something that is added to make the fireplace more useful, attractive. An insert is not an accessory. It is a complete, enclosed and separate combustion system. It supercedes the fireplace and makes it just the container.
I don't know but after reading through their manual I see multiple cases where they are giving down right dangerous advice
"Approved with or without positive flue connection." They are actually saying you can install their insert as a slammer which is totally dangerous.
They say you can pull all of the refractory panels out of the fireplace and then drill holes down through the floor to allow for leggs to run down through to the combustible floor for support.
But I can tell you that by code one manufacturers instructions cannot override the instructions for another ul listed appliance.
The problem with that reasoning is that in this case it clearly says insert or accessory. And that fireplace is not tested or listed to act as a container for an insert.
There may be safety issues yes. Now can you answer a question about code. Are you not required by code to follow all manufacturers instructions?
And your current insurance company may be ok with it but what about if you change what if you sell the house???
It's pretty rare for the fireplace and the insert manufacturers to all agree that their products are interchangeable. Especially since the products are constantly changing. There is absolutely NO money in it for the fireplace manufacturer... The insert manufacturer on the other hand has an edge here. Money! They do a "destruction" test, proving it is safe in a prefab fireplace, even in the worst case scenario. No, they don't test every single fireplace, but they do test as if your drunk brother in law installed it and stayed the night to load er up. If the fireplace said that no inserts at all were were approved then I'd be on board, but if they approve a list of them, I'd bet those aren't the only units that are safe... I'd ask my insurance company what they think.
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