Looking for wood/gas (propane) combo boiler

[mikefrommaine]

Same here, but it's been a few decades for the nuggets

 

[Fred61]

Guilty on the nuggets

Can anybody tell me what they are?

 

[mikefrommaine]

Can anybody tell me what they are?

Don't know but can't be any worse than pink slime in the burgers.

 

[kopeck]

Can anybody tell me what they are?

Dunno but I bet they would gassify!

I'm not a twit but I do have a bookface account.

For what it's worth I don't care for the mess in my basement but it's better then walking out in a blizzard.

I'm trying half cord racks this year. Keep a cord or so in the basement and the reset can stay out in the shed until I need it. Undoubtedly that means I'll run out on the coldest day of the year and be refilling my racks and grumbling to my self all the while...

K

 

[maple1]

Can anybody tell me what they are?

Ground up chicken fibres pressed into golf ball sized nuggets - except kinda flattened, not round - with a crunchy golden brown exterior.

Kind of like wood pellets, only bigger & tastier.

Not that I've tasted wood pellets...

 

[Fred61]

Ground up chicken fibres pressed into golf ball sized nuggets - except kinda flattened, not round

I knew there was a reason not to eat them. I went to a chicken bar-b-que one day and the guy cooking was turning the chicken halves with gloved hands, I'll bet that those gloves were the tastiest things there but I still ordered the chicken.

 

[gimmegas]

I've seen a Vigas running in a trailer, it was cool but not the best "real world" example. That being said the Lambda Vigas would be high on my list now.

Storage not only means less loading but more efficient burning. Think of it this way, storage allow your boiler to burn at full tilt, less idling means less wasted heat, less wasted means less wood burned! That also plays into your question about softwood, the gasifcation eliminates the creosote problems, that is as long as it's happening. Idling means that you're not gassing...

Pretty much I load my boiler twice a day during the winter. When it get warmer then it once a day, once every other day and so on. With out storage you would need to keep a fire going all the time...let just say I like storage.

1000 gallons is more or less the norm. I use a 820 gallon heat bank from American Solartechnics which seems to do the trick. They're made here in Maine, you might want to check them out. Tom, the owner of AST, is also here on the board.

K

K- good stuff on rationale for storage. Less waste = better use of resources. I like that formula. If they make American Solartechnics in Maine, I'm all over it. How do I get in touch w/ Tom?

 

[maple1]

Find where he's posted on the board (search for 'Tom In Maine') - or just do a member search - and start a conversation with him.

 

[gimmegas]

K, you have a froling or tarm?

Gimme, you will find that gasser owners break down into several groups:

In a shed vs in the house
Storage vs let it idle
Lambda vs non

All have their pros and cons.

MFM, could you or anyone else educate me on Lambda? I just thought it was a Greek letter 'til now? I'm definitely in the house as long as it (boiler) doesn't smoke it up. Thanks- Gimme

 

[maple1]

Lambda boilers incorprate an oxygen sensor in the flue pipe, and automatically regulate air intake into the primary & secondary chambers depending on oxygen output.

 

[gimmegas]

Tarm Solo Innova 30.

I like it a lot.

I would also like to add that I looked at everything when I was trying to figure out what to buy. I'm sort of nutty on the research bit, I drove my wife nuts. When I first started looking I thought a GreenWood was the ticket...I'm glad I didn't bite right away. Then I started to look at Econoburns, which seemed nice but there wasn't a local dealer and honestly seemed kind of pricy (to me). Then it was EKO/Biomass/Paxos vs Tarms & Frolings. The Froling ended up being more then I could afford and the Tarm had features that I really liked. It was a nice happy medium, had features that I wanted at a price I could afford. The Vigas showed around the time I was settling on the Tarm, I think I would give them a good look as well.

If I was building new I would have looked at a Garn.

The other X factor is local support which was far away the best with the Tarm.

K

Edited: Expanded on topic.

K, who has Tarm and where are they? Garn, anyone up there w/ them? OK. Now I need to know a little about $ since you brought it up. How much dinero do I need to put the beast in the basement, w/ 800-1000 gal storage and radiant heat in say a 30x 40 basement, same dimension first floor and a loft of 30 x 20? (All new const.) Anyone out there can chime in, but since you did the radiant heat thing, you might be able to give me a good guestimate. Thanks- G.

 

[gimmegas]

It works great. Really lends itself to wood heat too, as it uses 110 degree water.. So it's mixing down the temps.

It's sort of, set it, and forget it. Very slow to respond. It's a basement.

I'm heating 6k sf. 1900 of basement slab. 1200 of garage and utility room slab. Same amounts staple up radiant on 1st floor. That runs at 140 degrees.

Very happy with the vigas. I have zero complaints. In my opinion... a lot of these boilers are very similar. They all do the same stuff. I'm VERY happy with how easy and quick the Vigas is to clean out.

The biggest thing IMHO is the guy who designs the system. If you don't get the piping and the flow rates and pipe sizes right..... it's like trying to make a race car go with no wheels on it.

I can't say enough good things about Mark at AHONA. I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about him. THAT is saying something in the internet age. I spoke to him at the fair for two years before I spent a penny with him. He answered my questions both before and after the sale.

You're doing the right thing.. KEEP READING and learning. Go take a look at a few guys setups. I've shown a couple guys mine. You'll avoid others mistakes that way.

JP

It works great. Really lends itself to wood heat too, as it uses 110 degree water.. So it's mixing down the temps.

It's sort of, set it, and forget it. Very slow to respond. It's a basement.

I'm heating 6k sf. 1900 of basement slab. 1200 of garage and utility room slab. Same amounts staple up radiant on 1st floor. That runs at 140 degrees.

Very happy with the vigas. I have zero complaints. In my opinion... a lot of these boilers are very similar. They all do the same stuff. I'm VERY happy with how easy and quick the Vigas is to clean out.

The biggest thing IMHO is the guy who designs the system. If you don't get the piping and the flow rates and pipe sizes right..... it's like trying to make a race car go with no wheels on it.

I can't say enough good things about Mark at AHONA. I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about him. THAT is saying something in the internet age. I spoke to him at the fair for two years before I spent a penny with him. He answered my questions both before and after the sale.

You're doing the right thing.. KEEP READING and learning. Go take a look at a few guys setups. I've shown a couple guys mine. You'll avoid others mistakes that way.

JP

JP, I sent this in response to Kopeck, which was only part right. YOU did the Radiant, so this (radiant part) applies more to YOU. (apologies to K, I need another home brew) who has Tarm and where are they? Garn, anyone up there w/ them? OK. Now I need to know a little about $ since you brought it up. How much dinero do I need to put the beast in the basement, w/ 800-1000 gal storage and radiant heat in say a 30x 40 basement, same dimension first floor and a loft of 30 x 20? (All new const.) Anyone out there can chime in, but since you did the radiant heat thing, you might be able to give me a good guestimate. Thanks- G.​

 

[gimmegas]

Lambda boilers incorprate an oxygen sensor in the flue pipe, and automatically regulate air intake into the primary & secondary chambers depending on oxygen output.

Thanks, Maple. I guess it's a good thing and would assume it's an extra? Worth the cash to get it? Yes? No? Anyone........

 

[JP11]

Sorry.. It's been about six years since I put in the radiant. I did A LOT of it when I was doing it. I got really good at it.. just about the time I was finished.

All I know is I spent WAY TOO MUCH on the house.

Sorry. I bet some guys on here are smart enough to get you started. You could probably help by coming up with how many zones you want. You could start pricing manifolds, pumps, the pipe.. and build up a list.

There's A TON of labor in laying out the pipes and tying it down to grid to keep it from floating during your concrete pour. You could save a lot there.

Similar.. there's a lot of labor to put the pipes stapled up under your subfloor. I did not use the transfer plates, but borrowed my plumbers special stapler that holds the pipe tight, but lets it move a bit side to side.

JP

 

[JP11]

If you are only asking about cost of the wood boiler itself... I had scrounged tanks that cost me next to nothing. I think all in I was in the 13 to 14k dollar range. Wood only add on. That's not any of the costs of my original oil boiler or controls or radiant.

 

[maple1]

Lambda: Yes, it's extra. I suspect generally that those who have it say its worth it, and those that don't say they're fine without it & it's not worth the extra.

It does add complexity and more potential for things to fail I suppose. Mechanical simplicity and minimal gadgetry & electricity dependance was a primary consideration for me, everyones primary considerations will differ.

 

[gimmegas]

On the size of space thing, my whole system - boilers, storage tanks, & 6 cords of wood - is sitting in a 14 x 24 footprint. Thats with room for walking around, and it also includes my water pump & tank, and old oil tank which will be removed in the spring. 13 x 30 should be quite adequate. If you're in the planning stages, try to lay things out assuming no power if possible. That will allow you to try to get by in a power outage by convection. Boiler down low in the basement, top of storage slightly higher - then your zones above all that. It will also help greatly for overheat protection issues. Also, if you wouldn't be using the propane for anything else and wouldn't be using backup heat much at all, maybe consider an electric boiler instead. But propane would likely be the better choice if you have other uses for it or would be away in winter periodically.

Maple, Also good to know I'm in the right neighborhood w/ the space. I'd hate to have it all done and then say Oh____! Yes, fortunately my wife likes to cook, and so propane seems like a good choice based on our location- out in the boonies. May put a propane heater in the great room instead of having to lug wood in and won't have to worry about another chimney, etc. Any thoughts on that...

 

[gimmegas]

If you are only asking about cost of the wood boiler itself... I had scrounged tanks that cost me next to nothing. I think all in I was in the 13 to 14k dollar range. Wood only add on. That's not any of the costs of my original oil boiler or controls or radiant.

Did you have radiant w/ your oil? and then went to wood??

 

[gimmegas]

Lambda: Yes, it's extra. I suspect generally that those who have it say its worth it, and those that don't say they're fine without it & it's not worth the extra.

It does add complexity and more potential for things to fail I suppose. Mechanical simplicity and minimal gadgetry & electricity dependance was a primary consideration for me, everyones primary considerations will differ.

Thanks, Maple. I'll probably cross it off my must have list.

 

[gimmegas]

Find where he's posted on the board (search for 'Tom In Maine') - or just do a member search - and start a conversation with him.

Maple, got it Thank you.

 

[gimmegas]

Amen, I would say storage is a must,has alot less time messing with stove,burns better, I had a wood boiler before and no storage,wow,AWAYS messing with it,clean out flue every 3 weeks, now with gasser I clean once a year then it really dont need it, fire it once or twice a day,storage now nice going 3days in shoulder weather without running stove, Learn from guys on here,we have made mistakes so you wont have to,lol

Ozzie, OK. I'm sold on the storage thing. Thanks, neighbor.

 

[Fred61]

Thanks, Maple. I guess it's a good thing and would assume it's an extra? Worth the cash to get it? Yes? No? Anyone........

Boy, it's hard to say if these advances are worth it or not. The guy that puts in an old pot belly wood stove full of holes and is alot warmer loves the thing. The guy that sold it to him hated it and upgraded to a Vermont Castings loves it. The guy that upgraded from a Vermont Castings stove installs an outdoor wood boiler and loves it. In a few years he upgrades to a gasser and loves it. Who would want more? Now the lamda. It may depend on your particular situation as to whether these advances are good for you so anyone that has only seen one side is basically unqualified to answer the question.
I'm one of the few on this forum that has operated two different gassers so I feel I'm qualified to compare these two but can't comment on others. So when a guy with a particular gasser loves his, what does it mean?

 

[gimmegas]

Sorry.. It's been about six years since I put in the radiant. I did A LOT of it when I was doing it. I got really good at it.. just about the time I was finished.

All I know is I spent WAY TOO MUCH on the house.

Sorry. I bet some guys on here are smart enough to get you started. You could probably help by coming up with how many zones you want. You could start pricing manifolds, pumps, the pipe.. and build up a list.

There's A TON of labor in laying out the pipes and tying it down to grid to keep it from floating during your concrete pour. You could save a lot there.

Similar.. there's a lot of labor to put the pipes stapled up under your subfloor. I did not use the transfer plates, but borrowed my plumbers special stapler that holds the pipe tight, but lets it move a bit side to side.

JP

UNfortunately, JP, I will have to continue to work during construction so i won't be much help w/ the installation of the radiant. Obviously you think it (radiant) is worth the time and $ in the long run. 6k is a lot of sq ft!! Do you think I could get by w/o doing the basement and just do radiant in the main floors? How much wood/yr do you burn??

 

[kopeck]

Revision Heat, they're in Portland and Brewer.

Very good folks to deal with. Don't discount local parts/support! I don't know about Garn, you would have to do so leg work there.

I have 10k in mine more or less, probably a little more as there's lots of odds and ends that get added as you go but you never think about. I did the install my self so that helped keep the bill down.

K

 

[JP11]

You would actually do the opposite. Bury the pipe in the concrete. It's the most efficient.. and a GREAT use of wood boiler storage water.. as you could heat your tanks to 195.. then run em all the way down to 100 or so. (the radiant in the concrete runs at 100 to 110 degrees or so.)

It's very slow to respond.. you set the thermostat and forget it. The heat "lost" from your basement would be heat gained by your first floor.

I'm not very well versed on radiators.. but I think there's some newer stuff out there that would work for baseboards or wall radiators that would work on your first floor. My first floor is running 140 degree water.. so I stop using my wood boiler, and the oil boiler comes on at 135 degrees.

This is my first winter.. but I'm guessing 8 to 10 cords. I've got a lot of softwoods that were blown down during Irene.. so I'm guessing I'll be on the high side this year. I ran over 1500 gallons of oil last winter.. and it was a mild one!! (I was running about 70% my own homeade fuel made from french fry grease... so the cost sting wasn't as bad)

over 6k sf heated. Includes my wife's attached photo studio. Keeping it even warmer this year.. wood boiler is great.

JP