'Legal' or 'Illegal'?

[MR. GLO]

Yes I read it and I can't find anything in it saying stoves have to be 2020 compliant to be installed.

And you are correct I should have worded it correctly. I meant EPA certified but to pre 2020 standards

Thanks for clarifying. The laws are tough to understand...im still confused on some issues...It seems the laws changes with sales vs installation or house transfer...

EPA Website reads Step 2 will take effect on May 15, 2020, when the standard will be lowered to 2.0 g/h. Heaters using the optional cord wood test method must meet a standard of 2.5 g/h Is this what you are talking about 2.0/2.5 ? So what I think you meant was no state has adopted this 2.0/2.5 standard for installation purposes. I see your point... I saw the CA bay area and it looks like they haven't adopted it and Mass is 3.5 for non cat but 2.0 for cat for installs.. Then after all that you have to deal with the UL Tag issue.

We are doomed either way...its coming.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for clarifying. The laws are tough to understand...im still confused on some issues...It seems the laws changes with sales vs installation or house transfer...

EPA Website reads Step 2 will take effect on May 15, 2020, when the standard will be lowered to 2.0 g/h. Heaters using the optional cord wood test method must meet a standard of 2.5 g/h Is this what you are talking about 2.0/2.5 ? So what I think you meant was no state has adopted this 2.0/2.5 standard for installation purposes. I see your point... I saw the CA bay area and it looks like they haven't adopted it and Mass is 3.5 for non cat but 2.0 for cat for installs.. Then after all that you have to deal with the UL Tag issue.

We are doomed either way...its coming.

The way I read it those mass specs were just to get specific energy efficiency ratings for buildings. But I didn't dig any further than the links provided.

Regardless of any of this I don't see anything I would call impending doom.

As far as laws changing nationwide atleast for a long time now new stoves had to be EPA certified to be sold. In 2020 those standards were upped for the 3rd time. Yes there are some states and municipalities where you can't sell or install pre EPA stoves but I have yet to see anywhere that only 2020 EPA stoves can be installed or sold privately.

 

[MR. GLO]

To me when you cant install an older stove like a jotul 121 or some pre 2020 stoves ( private sale) in your home i would consider that doomed...look at nh this could have passed..
wood boilers are being banned too...
NY just had a fight with the law...



Not having a label but you have the manual.....one town says and some report its from Dept of public Safety...
—While the Building Code itself does not approve individual products, it does require that all solid fuel-burning appliances which are to be installed in Massachusetts carry a permanently attached label on the appliance indicating that it has successfully passed certain National Standards Tests and otherwise conforms to the listing requirements. Therefore, if you are looking for a new appliance and it is not properly listed and labeled, do not buy it for use in Massachusetts.


Link below
NH LAW ALMOST PASSED

 

[begreen]

To me when you cant install an older stove like a jotul 121 or some pre 2020 stoves ( private sale) in your home i would consider that doomed...look at nh this could have passed..

Yes, there is nothing against installing a pre-2020 EPA stove that I know of. The Jotul 121 would be ok in many locations if it still has the UL certification label on it. If the manual includes the label (many do) then that should qualify it. After that, it's mainly up to the insurance companies.

 

[MR. GLO]

From what i am reading the manual alone does not qualify. It has to be attached to the device.

I'm sure some building inspectors will accept the manual...but when do you want to find out? Before or after purchase and install.

Sometimes you can't find out because they won't tell you until after the install is inspected.

And some communities require a fire dept and building dept inspection now. So I suggest calling both departments when doing installs.

 

[bholler]

From what i am reading the manual alone does not qualify. It has to be attached to the device.

I'm sure some building inspectors will accept the manual...but when do you want to find out? Before or after purchase and install.

Sometimes you can't find out because they won't tell you until after the install is inspected.

And some communities require a fire dept and building dept inspection now. So I suggest calling both departments when doing installs.

My understanding has always been the label needs to be attached to the stove for that stove to be listed. But there are two very different things we are discussing. One is ul listing and the other is EPA certification and that EPA certification is in 3 phases. The last taking effect in 2020. Mechanical code requires ul listing. There is no national building code requirements about EPA certification. But there are some state and local codes that require EPA certification. At this point I have seen nothing that specifies a specific EPA phase requirement.

 

[begreen]

A good place for the gubmint to get involved simply is to require permanent labeling, perhaps with the serial # stamped onto the stove body.

 

[bholler]

A good place for the gubmint to get involved simply is to require permanent labeling, perhaps with the serial # stamped onto the stove body.

I couldn't agree more. If they stamped the serial number into the stove the rest can be verified.

 

[MR. GLO]

Whats the difference between epa certification and epa phase and regulating the g/h?

Some communities are regulating specific output which are tested by epa. I will try to gather more info and documents.

If state building code or any adopted amendment to building code cites mechanical code it's part of the state building codes.

If your not doing the install yourself in state like Mass. I would make sure your stove sales company or chimney company has a construction supervisor license...dont pull permit as homeowner for them...

Or you might not be covered under c142a and c93a....I see a lot of contractors lately not properly licensed.

 

[bholler]

Whats the difference between epa certification and epa phase and regulating the g/h?

Some communities are regulating specific output which are tested by epa. I will try to gather more info and documents.

If state building code or any adopted amendment to building code cites mechanical code it's part of the state building codes.

If your not doing the install yourself in state like Mass. I would make sure your stove sales company or chimney company has a construction supervisor license...dont pull permit as homeowner for them...

Or you might not be covered under c142a and c93a....I see a lot of contractors lately not properly licensed.

The difference in the phases is generally the g/h and what they apply to

I am not aware of any municipalities setting emissions requirements for stoves being installed. But it may absolutely be true so if you can find info I would love to see it.

 

[MR. GLO]

I think these area would fall under emission requirements or epa certification or epa emissions...not allowing a stove due to its emission certification or requirements ...
isn't that setting a requirement? maybe I'm missing something here...

Washington State
WAC 173-433-100

Wood Burning and the Law | Puget Sound Clean Air Agency, WA

If you choose to heat with wood, follow these guideline to help maximize energy output and minimize pollution.

pscleanair.gov

Wood Burning and the Law

You cant even trade the stove. if it doesn't meet the requirements.

(3) Solid fuel burning devices. A person must not advertise to sell, offer to sell, sell, bargain, exchange, or give away a solid fuel burning device in Washington unless it has been certified and labeled in accordance with procedures and criteria specified in "40 C.F.R. 60 Subpart AAA - Standards of Performance for Residential Wood Heaters" as amended through July 1, 1990, and meets the following particulate air contaminant emission standards and the test methodology of the EPA in effect on January 1, 1991, or an equivalent standard under any test methodology adopted by the EPA subsequent to such date:

(a) Two and one-half grams per hour for catalytic woodstoves; and

(b) Four and one-half grams per hour for all other solid fuel burning devices.

(c) For purposes of this subsection, "equivalent" means the emissions limits specified in this subsection multiplied by a statistically reliable conversion factor determined by ecology that relates the emission test results from the methodology established by the EPA prior to May 15, 1991, to the test results from the methodology subsequently adopted by that agency.

Laguana Beach CA They actually say must comply with phase II emission limits...but they might be only enforcing remodels and new constructions.

it looks like San Francisco banned wood stoves in new homes or remodel over 15k . and ifs it your sole heating device then is must meet EPA guidelines.

Wood Smoke Pollution

Learn how the Air District is reducing wood smoke pollution in the Bay Area through Spare the Air Alerts and restrictions on wood burning, and find out how you can help at home.

www.baaqmd.gov

(broken link removed)

Ill try to get an answer on the Mass energy code requirement sometime next week...

​

 

[begreen]

As noted, WA state and OR were leaders in pushing for clean-burning stoves. This has been in place for decades. We have a natural long valley that is now filled with ocean water. It's called Puget Sound. There are very high mountains on either side of the sound. During winter temperature inversions wood smoke is trapped and really degrades air quality. There was a pretty vocal push for cleaner-burning stoves in the region. I burn wood and don't resent these requirements. When the air is bad you can see it.

The resale portion is not enforced. Take a look at used woodstove sales on craigslist in either state.

 

[begreen]

Tom Oyen was influential in promoting clean-burning stoves in our state. In his younger years, he even had a mobile burn setup that demonstrated the obvious differences in chimney smoke between pre-EPA and post-EPA stoves. It was a convincing demonstration. Tom wrote some good articles. We were fortunate to get his library transferred to hearth.com before he passed last year. Scroll down on this page to the EPA articles on the lower left. I think they will answer a lot of questions. Included in the first one, "Are they going to outlaw woodstoves?", is a detailed explanation of EPA phases.

 

[Treefella]

Thank-You to all who joined this discussion. It's a jungle of laws and regulations- local, state, and national. I should have included that I live in NH. That being said, I don't know what regulations I need to adhere to yet. I do know that the town I live in is full of 'educated' radicals that if given their way would not even allow you to drive a car anymore, to say nothing about heating with wood. I built my house in 2004 and became aware that my town has many codes that they adopted from California. My general contractor was shocked at the time to find some of the codes he had to follow. I can remember him telling me that no other town he's built houses in (in NH) had requirements as stringent as my town. So I guess my next move would be contacting my install guy to get his input.

 

[bholler]

Thank-You to all who joined this discussion. It's a jungle of laws and regulations- local, state, and national. I should have included that I live in NH. That being said, I don't know what regulations I need to adhere to yet. I do know that the town I live in is full of 'educated' radicals that if given their way would not even allow you to drive a car anymore, to say nothing about heating with wood. I built my house in 2004 and became aware that my town has many codes that they adopted from California. My general contractor was shocked at the time to find some of the codes he had to follow. I can remember him telling me that no other town he's built houses in (in NH) had requirements as stringent as my town. So I guess my next move would be contacting my install guy to get his input.

Well I can tell you without question that installing that stove is not against your state or national code. If your town has more stringent codes that may be different.

Btw it would be legal to install in California as well

 

[MR. GLO]

Thanks for the update.

The good news is your home is not new construction and not the only source of heat. It looks like this is another way they are slipping the energy codes in and requiring the homes to meet a HERS rating. It would be difficult to meet the HERS rating with a wood stove as the only heat in the home.

 

[begreen]

Tom Oyen was influential in promoting clean-burning stoves in our state. In his younger years, he even had a mobile burn setup that demonstrated the obvious differences in chimney smoke between pre-EPA and post-EPA stoves. It was a convincing demonstration. Tom wrote some good articles. We were fortunate to get his library transferred to hearth.com before he passed last year. Scroll down on this page to the EPA articles on the lower left. I think they will answer a lot of questions. Included in the first one, "Are they going to outlaw woodstoves?", is a detailed explanation of EPA phases.

I suppose it would help if I posted a link:

Answers to wood stove, gas stove, fireplace and chimney FAQs

Answers to Hearth Product Questions

hearth.com

Are they going to outlaw woodstoves?

Sweep's Library - EPA wood stove regulations

An overview of the EPA wood stove emissions regulations

hearth.com