LED Lighting - Use More Electricity?

[maple1]

Whoopies tour bus went up in flames here this past weekend. She didn't realize she was in New Brunswick rather than Ontario, apparently - but all turned out well in the end. Except for the bus.

True story.

Back to the thread...

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Better to just replace the whole 4' florescent fixture with an LED equivalent. Can be had for about $36 at Sams club. Only about $6 more than a T-8 fixture with bulbs. Uses about 40 watts total rather than 40 per bulb for 2 bulbs ,so about half the wattage.

 

[NateB]

Unfettered capitalism is famous for this as all choices are made based on profit (greed). And gainers in the profit game usually also end up gainers in the power game to skew results in their favor.

Your 2 statements don't match up here. Playing the power game to skew results in your favor is not Unfettered Capitalism. It is very much fettered capitalism (Crony capitalism) which is an unholy relationship between business and government. I don't believe Unfettered capitalism has ever existed. In fact government is key in capitalism to ensure fare play in business, but corrupt politicians have allowed themselves to be controlled by corrupt businessmen. The politicians choose which companies will get the stimulus, and by default which companies go out of business. The drive of capitalism is to be the best at what you do. The drive of Crony Capitalism is take as much advantage of the system as you can to put more money in your pocket. What we need are people striving to be their best, not people striving to figure out how to take the most advantage of the system.

 

[sportbikerider78]

You're on point with a great deal of what you said Nate, but government does not create fair play. Most monopolies these days, exist because of government, not in spite of it. Think of all of the monopolies the government has created on their own that we are required to pay for with tax money.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pure capitalism,,of course capitalism can't be blamed for many of the so called free market issues we have today, because people are always demanding new regulations and we don't have pure capitalism.

To say that capitalism 'takes advantage' of anything is ridiculous. How is free trade of goods and services taking advantage of anything? You can't force your opinions on others in such a system.
On the contrary, anything but a completely free market takes from some and gives to others. That is an abuse of power and well in place today.
True greed is when you have opinions and beliefs and you force others to pay for your beliefs through taxation.

People are people. Private or public. Both sides will do evil things. The question is, do you want that power in the hands of many or in the hands of a few?

Oh, and LED light bulbs rock. I converted my entire house...including 15 recessed lights. Those were all 90W each and I save a ton with those bad boys.

 

[NateB]

I agree government does not create fair play in our current system, but that is the role government should play. When I say take advantage I am referring to crony capitalism.

 

[jebatty]

Pure capitalism exists only in theory. There is no completely free market and there never will be such a market except in text books. Capitalism reduces everything to monetary value or to things which create monetary value. Money is the sole object of capitalism. The government is not independent of people, corporations, and influence which impacts government. I give thanks every day that many people make decisions for the good of others and willingly give for the benefit of others without expectation or desire for a reward. The morality of "love your neighbor" (notice that this is not the morality of love your friends) is a morality worth aspiring to.

 

[jebatty]

Rich countries, corporations, and individuals have the funds for research and innovation to make green energy cost effective, reliable, and available for all. If they won't do it because the poor are not on board, or because someone else won't do it, then heaven or hell is the only outcome. The climate crisis will not be solved by the free market

 

[NateB]

Pure capitalism exists only in theory. There is no completely free market and there never will be such a market except in text books. Capitalism reduces everything to monetary value or to things which create monetary value. Money is the sole object of capitalism. The government is not independent of people, corporations, and influence which impacts government. I give thanks every day that many people make decisions for the good of others and willingly give for the benefit of others without expectation or desire for a reward. The morality of "love your neighbor" (notice that this is not the morality of love your friends) is a morality worth aspiring to.

I agree love your neighbor is one of the most important goals to aspire to.

 

[NateB]

Rich countries, corporations, and individuals have the funds for research and innovation to make green energy cost effective, reliable, and available for all. If they won't do it because the poor are not on board, or because someone else won't do it, then heaven or hell is the only outcome. The climate crisis will not be solved by the free market

Interesting article, I wish I had billions of dollars so I could look into these things also.

Quote from the article
“There’s no fortune to be made. Even if you have a new energy source that costs the same as today’s and emits no CO2, it will be uncertain compared with what’s tried-and-true and already operating at unbelievable scale and has gotten through all the regulatory problems,” Gates said. “Without a substantial carbon tax, there’s no incentive for innovators or plant buyers to switch.”

This quote I find to be flawed. Mr Gates says no one will invest in a new energy source, because it is uncertain to get through all the government regulation problems, and the solution is so have the government find the new energy source.???

I think a better solution would be to cut through the red tape, and create a way that allows people to develop new energy in a safe way. I doubt that in today's climate if someone came out with a clean energy source, that Americans would not buy all of it that they could.

 

[velvetfoot]

"Bill Gates: Only Socialism Can Save the Climate’"
Tell that to the woolly mammoths. Argh. Another innocuous thread, now unwatched.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Getting back to the subject matter, im very dissapointed in the new t-8 fluorescent lights and fixtures as the bulb ends start turning black almost immediately. They are a bit brighter than the T-12 lights and fixtures. Thats why i wont invest any more money in old technology. For a mere $6 more i can get the LED 4Ft fixtures that use half the power and im hoping will last a heck of a lot longer than the t-8 bulbs. THey seem even brighter then the T-8s.

 

[iamlucky13]

FYI, if you already have existing fluorescent fixtures installed, Phillips is on record as implicitly saying not to replace them yet (of course, they won't put it that way). They claim to have lamps that consume a little over half as much power as current tubular LED replacements for a given light output nearly ready for market:

(broken link removed to http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/design/news/backgrounders/inside-innovation-philips-breaks-200-lumens-per-watt-barrier.wpd#.VjFy1iuMbhU)

 

[jebatty]

One large fault with fluorescent tubes is that about 2/3 of their light goes up or sideways and not down to the area that needs the light. Traditional white reflectors help with this a little, and expensive high tech reflectors help more, but still significant loss of light. A second fault is decreasing light output over time which may be in the range of 40% over the lifespan, and then combine this with dust, dirt, etc. collecting on the top and sides of the tubes, and the light loss is even greater. And one more, a long life span but not coming close to an LED.

LED tubes pretty much avoid all of these issues, unless side or up light is desired. Real world life span remains to be seen, but rapid decreases in price are making the LED tubes closer to the tube light of choice, nearly regardless of improvements in fluorescent tubes.

 

[Vinnie 1965]

Polarized glasses and polarized sunglasses will reduce a lot of the glare from LEDs I drive truck for a living So I need to see you all the time that's how I learned the Polaroids glass trick warm LED colors are 2700k- 3400k bright are 4000 to 5000k just do your research and read reviews on the bulbs some good some bad I get a lot of mine from superbright LEDs.com

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The transformer that converts 120 volts down to the LED required voltage also uses electricity and creates heat.

 

[DBoon]

Older fluorescent fixtures used a magnetic 50/60 Hz core/coil ballast (transformer) to step 120V up to a higher voltage for the fluorescent tubes. These had significant losses - perhaps as much as the tubes in the fixtures. Newer fluorescent fixtures would use a switching power supply with 1/5th or less of the losses of an older core/coil transformer. An LED would use a similar switching power supply to step-down the voltage to the LED, so I wouldn't see this being much of a factor in any comparison.

 

[iluvjazznjava]

I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me LEDs are a bad bet. I just got a dozen LED pot lights installed in my basement and they are awesome and only use about 7w per bulb - many order of magnitudes more efficient than the half dozen incandescent 100w they replaced.

 

[NJ_Burner08002]

I have enjoyed LED bulbs. I have saved a good amount of money. I would say 300-400 a year.

 

[begreen]

Getting back to the subject matter, im very dissapointed in the new t-8 fluorescent lights and fixtures as the bulb ends start turning black almost immediately. They are a bit brighter than the T-12 lights and fixtures. Thats why i wont invest any more money in old technology. For a mere $6 more i can get the LED 4Ft fixtures that use half the power and im hoping will last a heck of a lot longer than the t-8 bulbs. THey seem even brighter then the T-8s.

This might be the ballasts. Instant on ballasts can be harder on the bulbs, especially if they are turned on/off frequently. Programmed starts are supposed to be a bit gentler, though not quite as efficient.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I haven't seen anything in this thread to convince me LEDs are a bad bet. I just got a dozen LED pot lights installed in my basement and they are awesome and only use about 7w per bulb - many order of magnitudes more efficient than the half dozen incandescent 100w they replaced.

And that right there is making me re question my rewiring strategy. I've been going through and changing the 14g to 12g any time I do a project. LEDs really change the whole situation. Yet I think the average electric bill is 900kwh per month now.

 

[maple1]

Got our power bill early this week. Think it was the lowest ever at $175 for 2 months. Can't say it's all due to LEDs, but they help. If I can find some tubes for the basement at a reasonable price, that will be about all I can do on that front. Except maybe for the outdoor motion sensor floods - but they see very little use.

 

[jebatty]

I have several lighting circuits, a full main panel breaker box, and thinking about combining some lighting circuits to free up some space. I doubt all of our lights on at the same time would take 15 amps. I think the code limits the number of fixtures on a circuit, but that is way out of date for LED lighting circuits.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I just love those new LED Xmas lights. My wife has a tendency to plug 10 -15 sets of lights into 1 outlet. An over load situation with regular lights but no problem at all with LED Xmas lights.

 

[woodsmaster]

i just switched most of my house from compact florescent to leds. I did go with brighter lights in most spots but they still use less electricity than what I had and they are instantly bright even if the house is cool !

 

[BoilerMan]

I have several lighting circuits, a full main panel breaker box, and thinking about combining some lighting circuits to free up some space. I doubt all of our lights on at the same time would take 15 amps. I think the code limits the number of fixtures on a circuit, but that is way out of date for LED lighting circuits.

No code limit on the number of luminaries that can be installed on one circuit. There are only a few code maxes on required circuits actually.
Combine away! I have two lighting circuits in 3200 square feet and that was just for convenience, one upstairs and one for downstairs.

On topic: I actually prefer the orange-yellow light of the HPS (high pressure sodium) lights, much easier on the eyes at night, especially with snow on the ground. As an electrician I install MANY led wallpacks and pole lights. All of the decent old HPS fixtures end up at my house in one way or another. I always install on switches and use judiciously, and have LED lights in high use fixtures around the house. Never have used more than 100kwh in a month's time, even with my wife being a stay at home mother. Gas range and dryer though, all else is wood.

TS