Learning the new Englander Madison

[BrotherBart]

Just to add I have three stoves, two Jotuls and the Englander 30-NC and I never close the primary air all the way on any of them to achieve a steady burn. A quarter or so of primary air keeps them humming along. Even the one on the 35' chimney.

Don't know where this obsession with closing them all the way down comes from. Well, yes I do. Here.

 

[begreen]

Varies with the stove. With the Castine most of the time it would close down to about 1/4 open unless there was a raging fire. Same setup for the T6 and I can often close it down all the way.

 

[Huntindog1]

(I wrote this i a very aggravated state. Im sure the troubles im having are mine and not the stoves. I dont want this to be taken as Englander Wood Stove fault. They make good well liked stoves and have very good customer service.)

Well been burning the Madison about a month now. Last nite could hear cresote fallin thru the pipe. So let it burn out.
Came home and took the pipe apart and it had about 1/2 inch of cresote all around it. Not just the brown fakey soot but hard glazed cresote.
In 5 years with the cheap cast iron boxwood, burning green wood because i didnt know any better, i never had hard glazed cresote.
Then to top that while tring to get the fiber boards out that were stuck. One broke in half.
( insert many explitives here)
The stove is hard to get to temp. Takes an hour to reach 450. And my wood reads 18% with mm. Ill be calling englander tomorrow. Not happy.

Are you loading on hot coals? Use kindling and a firestarter even if your on hot coals. Load up the stove but leave some room for some kindling and place the fire starter on the kindling. If the kindling is sitting on the hot coals and the addded flames of the fire starter your kindling will get your temps up in the stove quickly. Hot fast burning kindling will allow you to have the door shut sooner and get the air turned down sooner as it will burn with less air because your larger pieces take longer to get going. But if you can play around getting the heat built up quicker that will help the larger pieces to get going.

If you leave the input air or door open it allows more air flow thru the stove flushing heat up the flue. So get the door shut and the input air shut down quickly with out killing your fire and secondary flames. To keep from killing the flames shut the input air down in 1/4 ways increments. Wait a few minutes between increments then shut it down another 1/4 ways. Its a seat of your paints feel you will have to learn.

Make sure to check your wood moisture content from a piece you freshly split and the inside surface .

Check out this post:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/rake-coals-forward-and-stove-start-up-pictures.80659/

Watch this video:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-to-start-a-fire-video-top-down-method-and-other-tips.92574/

 

[CarbonVol]

Yes. Ill climb up and check it this evening

Hey man quick question I picked up this stove about a month ago and just got to really try it out last night. I'm having some similar issues but my major issue I think is my air control dampener. The question I have for you is when you have the door closed and air wide open and you go from 100% open to closed does your fire die out? Mine makes no change whatsoever.

Also if I close the door my fire dies out big time. I'm burning two year old oak that has been stored in a wood shed its dry as dry gets. It's almost like my air control rod is broken or something. I'm getting back puffing as well but it seemed to be minimized when the tempss got up. Also I cannot get the stove over 350. I mean door cracked two good size splits of wood and 350 is as high as she goes. I'm missing something here I guess. I called esw the guy I spoke to on the phone was zero help unfortunately.

Let me know if you don't care.

 

[mitchell721]

Carbon what is your setup like. How much pipe? Are you using top down method? Do you have stove thermometer/pipe thermometer?

 

[CarbonVol]

Carbon what is your setup like. How much pipe? Are you using top down method? Do you have stove thermometer/pipe thermometer?

I have like 12ft of pipe straight up. We added 4ft last night of single wall at the stop of my chimney and it didn't make a difference. Outside temps around 20 degrees. I have tried top down method, also my thermometer is an Imperial brand is 18 inches up from the base of my stove on my stove pipe. Won't get over 350 at all.

 

[mitchell721]

12 ft of chimney? Or 12ft including chimney and stove pipe? If it's 12 ft together I would atleast add another 3 ft section on to make it the 15 ft the manufacturer requires when I installed mine I was around 14 ft and on days that were low 40s I was pulling my hair out trying to get it to draft I added another 2 ft and still will fight it its around 45 46ish. My guess would be it's a mixture of a few things l. Oak is a pain when not fully dry. It may look and feel like it is but that's not always the case. Try this take some small splits and some 2x4 (untreated obviously) and mix them in with the oak. Second this stove does seem to be finicky sometimes so get your fire going with the door just cracked the start the handle in the ramp but don't push it down until pipe temp is about 300 then close it. Leave the air fully open/pushed in until temp is about 400 then start pulling it out a quarter every few minutes watching the flames. You will see a difference.

 

[CarbonVol]

12 ft of chimney? Or 12ft including chimney and stove pipe? If it's 12 ft together I would atleast add another 3 ft section on to make it the 15 ft the manufacturer requires when I installed mine I was around 14 ft and on days that were low 40s I was pulling my hair out trying to get it to draft I added another 2 ft and still will fight it its around 45 46ish. My guess would be it's a mixture of a few things l. Oak is a pain when not fully dry. It may look and feel like it is but that's not always the case. Try this take some small splits and some 2

It's 12ft including the stove pipe. When we added 4ft last night it didn't help at all. The temps are cold and it's even a little windy here. My oak tested at 12 with with the mouisture meter. Only thing I haven't tried is with some 2x4's from lowes or something. I thought the OAK might need to be hooked up but with my window and or back door open in the same room it makes zero difference. I'm kinda going by the 10-2 rule. I'm 16ft away from my roof line.

 

[mitchell721]

If the wood is dry and your getting good draft then try the door thing. Every time I do a cold start up that's what I do. I do the top down method get the wood going pretty decent with the door just latch on the inner wall which leaves a 1/4 gap or so then when I think it's going usually around 300 on my pipe probe thermometer I start it in the actual closing ramp and let it sit until about 350 400 then push it down closed. Seems like any other time it will snuff the fire out. I know more pipe would help me with that but I don't want 15 ft of pipe sticking out of my roof so that works for me. Reloads when the box is warm is a non issue for me. That's what makes me think maybe your just shutting the door to fast and closing it down?

 

[CarbonVol]

If the wood is dry and your getting good draft then try the door thing. Every time I do a cold start up that's what I do. I do the top down method get the wood going pretty decent with the door just latch on the inner wall which leaves a 1/4 gap or so then when I think it's going usually around 300 on my pipe probe thermometer I start it in the actual closing ramp and let it sit until about 350 400 then push it down closed. Seems like any other time it will snuff the fire out. I know more pipe would help me with that but I don't want 15 ft of pipe sticking out of my roof so that works for me. Reloads when the box is warm is a non issue for me. That's what makes me think maybe your just shutting the door to fast and closing it down?

See I don't feel like my draft is sufficient. When I take a lighter and open the door of the stove and hold the lighter right at the entrance it doesn't suck the flame in at all. What started this whole issue was back puffing off smoke. Well that seems to somewhat corrected when I got the stove around 300. I'm going to try tonight to start my stove with cut 2x4s and see if I can get the stove hot. With my door cracked I can't get it to 400 degrees. Right at about 325 is as high as I've seen it.

 

[mitchell721]

Ok well one the more knowledgeable guys might chime in here that have more knowledge than myself seems like the 4 ft peice would have helped out. Does that 4 ft peice make it stick up over the peak that's 16 ft away?

 

[begreen]

Hey man quick question I picked up this stove about a month ago and just got to really try it out last night. I'm having some similar issues but my major issue I think is my air control dampener. The question I have for you is when you have the door closed and air wide open and you go from 100% open to closed does your fire die out? Mine makes no change whatsoever.

Also if I close the door my fire dies out big time. I'm burning two year old oak that has been stored in a wood shed its dry as dry gets. It's almost like my air control rod is broken or something. I'm getting back puffing as well but it seemed to be minimized when the tempss got up. Also I cannot get the stove over 350. I mean door cracked two good size splits of wood and 350 is as high as she goes. I'm missing something here I guess. I called esw the guy I spoke to on the phone was zero help unfortunately.

Let me know if you don't care.

Please describe the entire flue setup from the stove to the chimney cap. Include any elbows, tees, in the flue system. Turns in the flue path reduce draft. Also, where is the stove located in the house, basement, main floor? Pictures are always welcome.

 

[mitchell721]

^here's your guy lol

 

[spirilis]

I have like 12ft of pipe straight up. We added 4ft last night of single wall at the stop of my chimney and it didn't make a difference. Outside temps around 20 degrees. I have tried top down method, also my thermometer is an Imperial brand is 18 inches up from the base of my stove on my stove pipe. Won't get over 350 at all.

Your thermometer is a magnet-mount (not probe) I assume, sticking on single-wall stovepipe, 18 inches above the base of the stove?
If so, 350F is rockin' hot! The typical place where we measure temp is on the stove top, about 2-3 inches in front of the stovepipe connector. At that location 350F is low-burn, 450F medium-burn, 550F high-burn and 600+ overfire.

 

[mitchell721]

Spirilis according to englander these stoves are measured above the door on left or right side of unit. I keep mine on right side upper front. If that makes sense

 

[RopeS]

Well I'll comment here, as I have a Madison. To address one of your questions, Carbon, if the door is closed with a decent fire going and the air is open (pushed in), when you close the air down (pull it out), the fire should decrease. Really it just channels some/more air into the burn tubes and you get secondary action when you 'close' the air. Remember, that as this is an EPA stove, it will not close the air off completely and make the fire go out. As far as your chimney hight, mine is 15' 3" or so, which is right over the mfg recommended specs, and it functions fine except on really warm (45+) days usually. If you are measuring stoveTOP temps on the left or right sides sort of in between the door and the stovepipe and are only getting 350, something is off. When I first got my Madison I was having issues getting it to light/take off unless I kept the door open quite a while. I hate to bring up the canned respons heree, but I'd be willing to bed that it is a fuel issue even though your chimney should be a bit higher too. You say you have 2 yr oak that is 12%. Just to be sure, is that measured with a moisture meter on the face of a freshly split piece? Oak really takes a while to dry all the way through and I have 2 yr split oak too that still measures 25% plus on the inside of a fresh split. If this is your first stove or first EPA stove, know that these (at least mine) really like sub 20% at the very minimum, and sometimes can be tricky with that moisture content. The mention of your temps with only two large splits, especially if they're not as dry as you think they are, sound about normal. If your wood is really 12% on the inside, try some medium/smaller splits in there with some kindling or SuperCedars and see what happens. I do both topdown and traditional ways of starting the fire and I find personally for this stove, starting a fire on the bottom seems to work better. I was pretty frustrated at first with the Madison, but since getting some truly dry wood, I'm extremely happy with it. No buildup in the chimney to speak of, it's amazing just how clean this thing burns. The only way I can fault it is the Auto Air Control thing simply doesn't work reliably, but I just use the air control manually, the old fashioned way.. :D Just my .02, hope it helps.

 

[spirilis]

Spirilis according to englander these stoves are measured above the door on left or right side of unit. I keep mine on right side upper front. If that makes sense

That's funny, I never noticed that, had to re-read the manual and you are correct, the right or left side of the stove near the top. I always measure on the stovetop to the left & right side of my Ecofan using an IR thermometer... I bet they correlate well enough though. The temps I see on the stovetop always appear to correspond to 350F being a "low" burn (not too much heat thrown into the room but still appears to burn clean with somewhat sparse or lazy secondaries), 400+ being lively and 550+ being "Gates of Hell".

 

[mitchell721]

Yea I would imagine it's not too far off. I would guess the top runs a bit hotter but wouldn't think too big of a variance

 

[blades]

Well i added a brace and 3 foot of pipe. Still having a little trouble with initial start up. But over all worlds better.
Reloads are buring great. Still havent worked up to a full load. Been loading about half a load. Setting the trigger and not messing with it at all. Letting the AAS trigger trip and start the long burn. Its been tripping between 450 and 500. Then climbing to 650 plus or minus. Not sure if my mm is reading right or not. But if it reads 15% or less then it burns good.
Thanks for the all the help.
Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.

Just a note on MM units- measurements are to be taken when the material is at room temperature( give or take a bit) on a freshly opened face, across the grain, but with the grain isn't always that much different. I wouldn't trust any battery that may have come with mm either.
There is a lot of confusion as far as "kiln dried is concerned- true Kiln dried wood would be at apx 6-8%, most of what is advertised as kiln dried is only kiln treated for bugs and as such is still too wet internally for the current crop of stoves ( only going to get worse with the new regs). This also applies to a lot of pallets.
Standing dead- the upper reaches of it may be fine but the bottom third will always be too wet due to wicking action. Learned that the hard way several years ago. As always your mileage may vary.

 

[branchburner]

At that location 350F is low-burn, 450F medium-burn, 550F high-burn and 600+ overfire.

Why do you consider 600f overfire? It sounds like the location of the thermometor would be a pretty hot place on the stove top, and 600f doesn't seem all that hot.

 

[Woody Stover]

over all worlds better. Thanks to Mike at ESW for his help.

Maybe the thread title should be changed now to "Learning the new Madison"?

Yep, I think you can still edit that title to something more positive, so newbies and casual observers aren't misled...

 

[spirilis]

Why do you consider 600f overfire? It sounds like the location of the thermometor would be a pretty hot place on the stove top, and 600f doesn't seem all that hot.

The manual says so. But now that I know the manual is talking about the side of the stove...... maybe I should re-check that. Mine does typically get up to 650-750F (stovetop near the ecofan) if I have wood up near the baffles going nuclear on me. I pull the draft all the way out and turn the fan on high, move the ecofan to the side of the stove pointing at the fluepipe (poor man's magic heat) when it gets above 600F on the stovetop.

 

[branchburner]

the manual is talking about the side of the stove......

I like having an IR gun, so I can check temps all over the stove and pipe and see where the hotter and cooler spots tend to be.

 

[mitchell721]

Spirilis, not saying it's a fact but if you got that temp alot then the top may run quite a bit hotter. I have a meeco magnetic that I keep on right side of stove and top front. And a flue guard probe roughly 18 inches up my doublewall. Usually when she is firing off good and fan on low it runs between 400-500. Obviously that with fan removing some heat. Only had to turn it on high once when I put some real dry ash in and waited to long to turn it down and pushing 600 with the flue pushing 800 that one was a clencher. I do have a question for you fellas speaking of that though. I see alot of ppl with other stoves that talk about there flues being like 400 range and such. Mine on a normal burn even with it turned down all the way will keep stove around 450 500 with fan on low and flue around 500-600 for you guys that watch your flue temp is that normal for you?

 

[spirilis]

Spirilis, not saying it's a fact but if you got that temp alot then the top may run quite a bit hotter. I have a meeco magnetic that I keep on right side of stove and top front. And a flue guard probe roughly 18 inches up my doublewall. Usually when she is firing off good and fan on low it runs between 400-500. Obviously that with fan removing some heat. Only had to turn it on high once when I put some real dry ash in and waited to long to turn it down and pushing 600 with the flue pushing 800 that one was a clencher. I do have a question for you fellas speaking of that though. I see alot of ppl with other stoves that talk about there flues being like 400 range and such. Mine on a normal burn even with it turned down all the way will keep stove around 450 500 with fan on low and flue around 500-600 for you guys that watch your flue temp is that normal for you?

Yep I just watched it tonight when I fired it up cold ... During startup, the stovetop was maybe 50-150F hotter. Once it was cruising along there wasn't as much of a difference between that side-upper-corner and the stovetop, but I can imagine now that under "Gates of Hell" conditions the stovetop is probably going to be hotter than the side-upper-corner measurement point ESW is using for their reference. Oh well, that explains things. My old Jotul 8 would routinely push 700-750F on the center stovetop with good dry wood briquettes (wood brick fuel or liberty bricks) anyway.

As for flue temps.... here's a graph of my current burn, coming from a probe type thermocouple sitting ~4" inside the pipe, roughly 12" above the stovetop (at the horizontal end of my 90 degree elbow):


I have noticed that the IR temp gun temperature on the stovepipe does roughly correspond with 1/2 what that thermocouple probe is reading.