Large unique home at 8200ft in the Colorado foothills

[Newbie78]

The blinds are happening. Shutters won’t look right with the architecture.

these are interior, automated blinds. Shutters I guess would be similar, but outside (which would protect your glass in event of a crazy weather event --who knows, right?) Perhaps you are envisioning something different. I don't know if these are insulated or not, but that would be best..

pretty contemporary I think. And there's a myriad of choices out there. I just googled for a second..

your wall that forces warm air down?? only works efficiently if that air is cooling and falling down on its own, which could be the case, idk. To me, those design engineers lost their frickin minds on that one. However, the same ducting and fan system could possibly be made to work in reverse?? to allow natural convection.

moving warm air down efficiently is nearly impossible unless it is cooling along the way.

stove on the lower level would be most efficient, obviously. I would not throw that option out without strong, strong consideration.

just wondering; is the outside concrete isolated adequately from the inside concrete? You could be losing an immense amount of heat there if not.

 

[Latviski]

That’s the idea!

 

[mcdougy]

A few questions....
what is the estimated length of pipe needed to vent a stove from the 2nd floor? Uninsulated and insulated.
Is the lady in the snowsuit willing to tend to the fire on the cold days?
On a cloudy day at what outside temperature are you having comfort issues with the current setup?

 

[Newbie78]

That’s the idea!

of course it is.

That's been my idea from the beginning. They are more efficient on the outside, but very expensive to do it right.

this is a different take on an interior application. Tho this particular blind is better for shading. I thought this was interesting because this style is continuous and could insulate larger blocks of windows while using fewer moving parts.

greenhouse effect: short waves from the sun come in through your glass and soak into your wall. As the air cools around the wall late in the day and the wall becomes warmer than the air, the wall naturally radiates long waves which cannot escape through the glass very well, so they bounce around inside your space. Your problem is that you are losing all your stored heat through your glass when this occurs because the glass is not insulated at this point in the day (or in cloudy weather) and in '82 is probably not very efficient glass to begin with (no fancy low-e coatings, no argon, etc.).

I would be very curious when you fix your house (and at this point I can see that you will) if you have any heating bill whatsoever. Other than perhaps in extended cloudy, cold periods. You gain 30 degrees in the sunshine! Then the minute you lose the sunshine you lose all of it quickly......hmmmmmm.

your house does not need to be cold. You can fix it.

 

[Latviski]

A few questions....
what is the estimated length of pipe needed to vent a stove from the 2nd floor? Uninsulated and insulated.
Is the lady in the snowsuit willing to tend to the fire on the cold days?
On a cloudy day at what outside temperature are you having comfort issues with the current setup?

Stovepipe total length about 12’. That will put me 3-4’ above the flat roof. If additional draft needed I could add another section and anchor
To stay warm she absolutely would help both bring wood and tend!
The diff in cloudy vs sunny at elevation is tremendous. 25F outside with full sun I need no heat or just one insert running. House will be around 60F. Upstairs around 65-70.
Cloudy day same temp outside upstairs will dip to 50 as will lower level. Anything below about 45 and cloudy it gets chilly.

 

[Newbie78]

If I am understanding this the bulk of your heat gain to your wall is through that bank of skylights?

If so, then this is also the bulk of your heat loss, so insulated shutters or blinds covering the skylights is paramount to not losing all of your walls' valuable heat to the atmosphere. Well, it's paramount anyway because heat rises..

if your inside concrete is not adequately isolated from your outside concrete you are losing a tremendous amount of heat there also. It's possible even that you may be trying to warm the whole mountain? The mountain should be around 50 degrees at depth nearly year round. Perfect for summer cooling, perhaps not for winter heating. Evaluating that situation might be in order?, idk.

you have a huge stone wall. It should store enough heat to heat your house if you were not constantly losing all of it's warmth. Over and over and over again.

Is your house overly hot on hot summer days?

 

[mcdougy]

Stovepipe total length about 12’. That will put me 3-4’ above the flat roof. If additional draft needed I could add another section and anchor
To stay warm she absolutely would help both bring wood and tend!
The diff in cloudy vs sunny at elevation is tremendous. 25F outside with full sun I need no heat or just one insert running. House will be around 60F. Upstairs around 65-70.
Cloudy day same temp outside upstairs will dip to 50 as will lower level. Anything below about 45 and cloudy it gets chilly.

👍
Do the current wood inserts heat the rock wall up significantly while in use?
When you look into window blinds be mindful of what R value they are claiming.
I mention this because you may be able to achieve the same r value with a window coating. Low E 366 is/was the highest r value for coatings but 3M .makes new things everyday and there may be something even better... The situation that a coating creates over a blind is that it will work ALL the time. Meaning that your passive gain will be negligent, as r value works both ways, keeps heat out while keeping heat in...this would turn you into a full time wood burner. But the view will never be obstructed by a window blind.....
Your 120' rock wall should still work very well as the "furnace" with your wood stoves running and heating up the thermal mass. A window coating will be more than likely cheaper than window blinds and possibly a diy install.

If the home gets warmer than you like in the summer, a coating will help as well since your getting SHG currently.

I say this with some experience as I am able to heat 6200sqft of floor space with a single appliance (PE FP 30) . The walls are considered over glazed with the large windows thru out.

Our propane furnace is shut off for the heating season. The FP 30 does the job well for this ranch style home.

Our stove/zc fireplace is placed in a 7'x16' rock veneer wall and I experience the effects of how the rock releases the energy. The tail end of a firebox burn are the hottest as the stone releases its captured heat.

Not trying to persuade you in any way, just letting you know that blinds may not be the only option. I do think that trying something with the windows first would be a good choice vs putting in a third wood stove in the 2nd story.

 

[mcdougy]

If I am understanding this the bulk of your heat gain to your wall is through that bank of skylights?

If so, then this is also the bulk of your heat loss, so insulated shutters or blinds covering the skylights is paramount to not losing all of your walls' valuable heat to the atmosphere. Well, it's paramount anyway because heat rises..

if your inside concrete is not adequately isolated from your outside concrete you are losing a tremendous amount of heat there also. It's possible even that you may be trying to warm the whole mountain? The mountain should be around 50 degrees at depth nearly year round. Perfect for summer cooling, perhaps not for winter heating. Evaluating that situation might be in order?, idk.

you have a huge stone wall. It should store enough heat to heat your house if you were not constantly losing all of it's warmth. Over and over and over again.

Is your house overly hot on hot summer days?

I was writing while you were posting.....my post is similar in nature. I overlooked/forgot that the skylights may be a large portion of the "open door" experience the house can suffer from.

 

[Newbie78]

Glass coatings can/do change the nature of the light wrt allowed/retained spectrum so that as a result sometimes your houseplants don't like it. Just a thing.

your "open door" remark is exactly what is happening here. Good descriptor.

 

[Newbie78]

That's a terrific view. In the short term, getting a bank of insulating shades on the bank of windows will make a notable improvement. Some can be motorized, automated, and even set on a timer or photocell to open in the morning and close at sunset.

And/or to open and close when there is different temperature between the wall and surrounding air, that is when the wall is radiating.

 

[EbS-P]

The blinds are happening. Shutters won’t look right with the architecture.
Now to decide on the stove.
At this point I’m down to Drolet HT-3000 (hard to beat they bargain), the Blaze king 40, and the Regency 5200. I’m not cheap but I sure do like the value of the drolet!
BK is fantastic for burn time and ease of control.
Regency right in the middle

Look at the different extra large options from Drolet. One is more radiant but I can’t recall which one. And decide if 6” is ok or you need 8”. At your elevation just plan on adding an extra section with a brace.

 

[Newbie78]

Austral, myriad, black stack; 90000 btu, 3.3ft3 , 18" logs either way up to 20" n/s, about 440lbs

ht2000, ht3000; 110000 btu, 3.5 ft3, 18" logs either way, up to about 20"? e/w, about 520lbs

I have a legend, which is the same as the 3.3 ft3 above, but side heat shielded. It draws like a maniac with a 20' total flue to the point that at times you can easily feel suction on the door when its even a half inch from closed.
I would highly recommend a key damper above the stove and a blower to control the flue heat more than anything. The flue gets hot long before the wood is raging. This flue heat has been discussed recently on here. Obviously the op's situation in a mostly milder climate at higher elevation will be different

the osburn and enerzone stoves are largely exactly the same, firebox for firebox.

 

[akgal]

I’ll be curious to know what you end up doing, please post an update!

 

[Latviski]

Yes the large bank of skylights is the primary source of solar heat gain as they are angled literally aimed at the south (sun) and therefore track all day onto the rock wall. And yes, the heat loss there needs to be addressed for sure. That will be challenging, but will happen.
The house can be kept decently cool by opening the 4 doors on each side (E/W facing) as well as the three large sliding doors downstairs. Lots of airflow then, and, at over 8000 feet summers rarely get much above the 80s. Very rarely.

 

[Latviski]

As a test, yesterday temps outside got up to close to 40F. Doing nothing (zero auxiliary heat input) my upstairs got to about 72F. Downstairs about 64F, except the parts underground which stayed cooler. On the first floor I ran my IR heat gun around and get this - the temps of the rock wall went from 70F down low to 110F up high. The wood beams tying the skylights to the rock wall clocked at 140F!! I don't think that's right, but it's def hot up in that high bank of skylights with the sun out. I turned on one of the fans that pulls air down the wall to the lower level and temp checked it coming out about 72-74F in the "basement"/lower level. I also found that one of the fans pulling the air down is not getting power (I found the culprit in a bad switch and will be replacing).
So...bottom line is - I think with good insulating and minimizing loss from radiation after sunset, as well as getting both fans pulling air downstairs from the hot skylight bank/rock wall I will immediately add 5-7F on the lower level, which will over time rise again to help heat whole house.
I'm down to pretty much the Drolet HT3000 or the Blaze King King 40, though price wise, I might just go Drolet and then spend the leftover on the blinds/insulation etc. I've got to do some more calculating but I think there's lots of "free" heat from that large thermal mass just escaping too easily, so that's priority one now although I'll probably order the stove no later than Feb/March so I can install this summer.
Honestly I sincerely appreciate all the input here as it's caused me to more closely analyze the home's potential. I do believe this house was built very intelligently and simply needs a refresh to maximize it's potential and minimize it's need for any heat outside of solar and some wood for those longer, darker days or longer stretches of snowy days with no real solar energy coming in.

 

[Latviski]

👍
Do the current wood inserts heat the rock wall up significantly while in use?
When you look into window blinds be mindful of what R value they are claiming.
I mention this because you may be able to achieve the same r value with a window coating. Low E 366 is/was the highest r value for coatings but 3M .makes new things everyday and there may be something even better... The situation that a coating creates over a blind is that it will work ALL the time. Meaning that your passive gain will be negligent, as r value works both ways, keeps heat out while keeping heat in...this would turn you into a full time wood burner. But the view will never be obstructed by a window blind.....
Your 120' rock wall should still work very well as the "furnace" with your wood stoves running and heating up the thermal mass. A window coating will be more than likely cheaper than window blinds and possibly a diy install.

If the home gets warmer than you like in the summer, a coating will help as well since your getting SHG currently.

I say this with some experience as I am able to heat 6200sqft of floor space with a single appliance (PE FP 30) . The walls are considered over glazed with the large windows thru out.

Our propane furnace is shut off for the heating season. The FP 30 does the job well for this ranch style home.

Our stove/zc fireplace is placed in a 7'x16' rock veneer wall and I experience the effects of how the rock releases the energy. The tail end of a firebox burn are the hottest as the stone releases its captured heat.

Not trying to persuade you in any way, just letting you know that blinds may not be the only option. I do think that trying something with the windows first would be a good choice vs putting in a third wood stove in the 2nd storey.View attachment 306987

My inserts don't really heat up the rock wall. I'm not sure why a true wood insert firebox would? They're self insulated (floating box) and have a SS 6" chimney inside a 10"+ existing metal chimney that was used for the previous heatilator fireplaces (total crap). My inserts do pump out a decent amount of heat each, but there's no way they would heat 6000sqft. Not even close!

 

[Latviski]

I’ll be curious to know what you end up doing, please post an update!

I'll def update as progress happens! Step one is I'm getting my second blower (that pulls air from skylights/rock wall down) back up and running so I get double the hot air pumped into the lower level. That will help a TON immediately.
Second step will be to add blinds/ cellular shades/ something with R value to the window banks while preserving the esthetics. That's absolutely a priority in this home as it's just too 'cool' too close up all the way. I know - that's silly, but it's true. Million dollar views ain't getting papered over!
Third step is to add the big wood stove to boost BTU output on cold days and cloudy days and give the option of an actual warm room!

 

[mcdougy]

I'll def update as progress happens! Step one is I'm getting my second blower (that pulls air from skylights/rock wall down) back up and running so I get double the hot air pumped into the lower level. That will help a TON immediately.
Second step will be to add blinds/ cellular shades/ something with R value to the window banks while preserving the esthetics. That's absolutely a priority in this home as it's just too 'cool' too close up all the way. I know - that's silly, but it's true. Million dollar views ain't getting papered over!
Third step is to add the big wood stove to boost BTU output on cold days and cloudy days and give the option of an actual warm room!

What are the fans?And where are they located? Can you explain the duct system? Do you think the fans are original to the build?

 

[Newbie78]

Your best bet, besides shutters/blinds is to attempt to make natural convection happen rather than fighting nature by trying to move heat down.

a "normal" thermal wall would have operable venting at the top and bottom to allow convection - warm air moving into progressively cooler areas through the top vents in a horizontal or, preferably, slightly downward direction into the cooler areas of the house while the lower wall vents allow cool air to be drawn into the warm side of the wall to create a natural convection flow.

It's refreshing to see that you are (slowly) figuring this out. It's almost like the original builders ran out of money or purpose or something and didn't complete their vision...

you have a magnificent home that wasn't finished properly wrt its passive goals.

 

[EbS-P]

I'll def update as progress happens! Step one is I'm getting my second blower (that pulls air from skylights/rock wall down) back up and running so I get double the hot air pumped into the lower level. That will help a TON immediately.
Second step will be to add blinds/ cellular shades/ something with R value to the window banks while preserving the esthetics. That's absolutely a priority in this home as it's just too 'cool' too close up all the way. I know - that's silly, but it's true. Million dollar views ain't getting papered over!
Third step is to add the big wood stove to boost BTU output on cold days and cloudy days and give the option of an actual warm room!

Do you have a way to keep the heat down in the lower level?

 

[mdocod]

I live in a ponderosa forest, and burn lots of ponderosa.

The occasional hyper-resin-rich chunks produce tons of soot. Soot doesn't burn off at low temps and can overwhelm, snuff out, and plug up cats (in my experience). Soot burns off pretty good and passes through a cat without issue if it is first burned in the intense heat of rolling secondary flames under a baffle.

I would not burn ponderosa in a stove without "traditional" secondary combustion tubes to lay waste to the heavy soot laden chunks before passing through a catalytic combustor. I would not use a blaze king to burn this type of fuel. It's "garbage" fuel that I would expect needs a more "trash incinerator" approach to being burned off cleanly.

Given your application, I would take a look at the Regency F5200

 

[begreen]

I would not burn ponderosa in a stove without "traditional" secondary combustion tubes to lay waste to the heavy soot laden chunks before passing through a catalytic combustor. I would not use a blaze king to burn this type of fuel. It's "garbage" fuel that I would expect needs a more "trash incinerator" approach to being burned off cleanly.

Not true. Most of eastern WA and a lot of Idaho burn ponderosa pine. This is Blaze King's backyard. It works fine on pine.

 

[begreen]

I have a legend, which is the same as the 3.3 ft3 above, but side heat shielded. It draws like a maniac with a 20' total flue to the point that at times you can easily feel suction on the door when its even a half inch from closed.
I would highly recommend a key damper above the stove and a blower to control the flue heat more than anything. The flue gets hot long before the wood is raging. This flue heat has been discussed recently on here. Obviously the op's situation in a mostly milder climate at higher elevation will be different

Stovepipe total length about 12’. That will put me 3-4’ above the flat roof.

With just 12' flue system at high altitude, I don't think a key damper would be warranted. More chimney seems more likely.

 

[Ashful]

With just 12' flue system at high altitude, I don't think a key damper would be warranted. More chimney seems more likely.

Agreed. I have something like 13' to 15' of pipe at 400 ft. elevation, and even that is pretty tame. Shorter flue at higher elevation, you're more likely to see too little draft, than too much.

 

[Latviski]

With just 12' flue system at high altitude, I don't think a key damper would be warranted. More chimney seems more likely.

My PE Super Insert has about 14' of 6" SS flex liner inside the old 10" steel firepipe from heatilator. Draw is amazing, zero smoke comes out even on single digit day startups.