Joyously burning oil

[Bioburner]

I had a customer with a 45 call me and he had been complaining he wasn't getting enough heat and had been fighting with it all winter. Finally took the pot out of the stove and cleaned out all the holes with a 1/8 drill bit. Guess it is working like new now. I guess I had assumed he had been cleaning it as the book says but nope he hadn't cleaned it.

And how hard is it to take out the tray out of the 45 or how much time? 5 minute project if stove is cold to remove and clean I stripped down the Bixby this AM before another polar blast as the flame was not right and the pot bottom was about 25% plugged. Clean stoves are happy stoves.

 

[rona]

And how hard is it to take out the tray out of the 45 or how much time? 5 minute project if stove is cold to remove and clean I stripped down the Bixby this AM before another polar blast as the flame was not right and the pot bottom was about 25% plugged. Clean stoves are happy stoves.

No matter what brand they all require maintenance or cleaning to run efficient. This individual runs a successful business and burned pellets in that stove for 4 years. I am thinking he just forgot about removing that pot to clean it. I can't imagine it would run four seasons before acting up.

 

[Bioburner]

Well I guess that's why car manufactures have to have lights to tell owners when to change oil and if its low. The better they run the less owners seem to pay attention to them.

 

[tjnamtiw]

A modern mini-split system works WELL below 40 degree, I understand your point about the cost vs heating with shells.
I just wanted to correct the above statement.
also FWIW our min-split pretty much heated our house (1600ish sq ft) for around $95 a month last winter, thats running it 24/7. I would consider a heating source that is heat on demand with the flip of switch and requires NO work or storage of fuels.

Since you brought up mini-splits a while back, I've been looking at them. They are pretty amazing, actually. I see that the Fujitsu's can have up to 8 inside units running off of one outside unit. And we can have SEER''S up to like 22. Plus there is no lose like there is in ductwork running in crawl spaces or attics. Plus you have a thermostat for each room. Plus they even have a system that will lower the heat or raise the cooling if no one's in the room for 20 minutes!
It's all quite amazing what is coming. A couple of questions for you though. How do you hide the freon lines running up to the wall mounted units? Also, with an AC conventional unit, you have a lot of condensate. How do these mini-splits handle condensate at the wall mounted units when they are on AC?
I am intrigued.

 

[wsar10]

Since you brought up mini-splits a while back, I've been looking at them. They are pretty amazing, actually. I see that the Fujitsu's can have up to 8 inside units running off of one outside unit. And we can have SEER''S up to like 22. Plus there is no lose like there is in ductwork running in crawl spaces or attics. Plus you have a thermostat for each room. Plus they even have a system that will lower the heat or raise the cooling if no one's in the room for 20 minutes!
It's all quite amazing what is coming. A couple of questions for you though. How do you hide the freon lines running up to the wall mounted units? Also, with an AC conventional unit, you have a lot of condensate. How do these mini-splits handle condensate at the wall mounted units when they are on AC?
I am intrigued.

To hide to inside lines you can put them inside a type of slim track (similar to what you would use to retro fit wiring in an old house(track wiring) ) on the outside of the wall. During my install we fished the lines (line set) up through the wall and into the back of the indoor units, its a bit of a pain to fish the line set, it has pipe insulation wrapped around them and we just added elec. tape to keep it in tact while feeding through the wall. the condensation is drained through a 3/4" clear hose that runs with your line set, there is no pump to remove the condensation therefore its gravity fed and the drain needs to stay running downhill to drain properly. If your application required it, you could run these lines to a collector with a small pump (some people have to).

the connection for EACH indoor unit is as follows, (I'll try to remember the correct pipe sizes)
1. 3/8 supply (IIRC 401A the "green" version of freon with oil) insulated
2. 3/8 return line, insulated
3. 3/4 flexible clear vinyl tubing for drain
4. a 4 lead wire for power and communication to the outdoor unit.

I didn't reply to you PM, since I posted here..........
hope this helps.

sounds like allot but not really, and nothing compared to retro-fitting duct work !

 

[velvetfoot]

You can't get any DSL even?

Nope.

 

[tjnamtiw]

To hide to inside lines you can put them inside a type of slim track (similar to what you would use to retro fit wiring in an old house(track wiring) ) on the outside of the wall. During my install we fished the lines (line set) up through the wall and into the back of the indoor units, its a bit of a pain to fish the line set, it has pipe insulation wrapped around them and we just added elec. tape to keep it in tact while feeding through the wall. the condensation is drained through a 3/4" clear hose that runs with your line set, there is no pump to remove the condensation therefore its gravity fed and the drain needs to stay running downhill to drain properly. If your application required it, you could run these lines to a collector with a small pump (some people have to).

the connection for EACH indoor unit is as follows, (I'll try to remember the correct pipe sizes)
1. 3/8 supply (IIRC 401A the "green" version of freon with oil) insulated
2. 3/8 return line, insulated
3. 3/4 flexible clear vinyl tubing for drain
4. a 4 lead wire for power and communication to the outdoor unit.

I didn't reply to you PM, since I posted here..........
hope this helps.

sounds like allot but not really, and nothing compared to retro-fitting duct work !

Thanks for the reply! I figured that there must be a drain line in there somewhere. From my experience with drain lines on regular AC units, be cautious of build up of algae and blockage, which in the case of these wall units would mean overflowing of water down your wall. It's best to add some diluted bleach a couple of times a season, from what I've found.
I was wondering about power feed to multiple units. I guess they would all be fed from one central box under the house. I know the track wiring system you are talking about. I guess it would be like that but on a bigger scale. I imagine you could dress it up or camouflage it. Very interesting.

 

[Jason Knapp]

ote="WiscWoody, post: 1697473, member: 20624"]Why is NG supposedly going up? I thought with all of the new drilling going on we have plenty of it. I know for awhile they thought there might be a squeeze on supply from all of the power plants converting to natural gas but I think that's not a issue now.[/quote]
Its true that power plants are converting to NG, but with the record cold here in the northeast, many NG plants had to cut back on electricity production due to increased use of NG for residential heating. This lead to the huge increase in electricity costs. More coal plants had to come online, and we all know what the EPA and the government feel about coal and coal mines.

 

[tjnamtiw]

ote="WiscWoody, post: 1697473, member: 20624"]Why is NG supposedly going up? I thought with all of the new drilling going on we have plenty of it. I know for awhile they thought there might be a squeeze on supply from all of the power plants converting to natural gas but I think that's not a issue now.

Its true that power plants are converting to NG, but with the record cold here in the northeast, many NG plants had to cut back on electricity production due to increased use of NG for residential heating. This lead to the huge increase in electricity costs. More coal plants had to come online, and we all know what the EPA and the government feel about coal and coal mines.[/quote]
If we can just hold out for 2 more years, maybe, just MAYBE, we can get someone in office who can put the bit back into the mouth of the EPA and pull back on the reigns so that coal can be recognized as our #1 resource again. I know it's asking a lot but hope really does mean something more than 'HOPE AND CHANGE'.

 

[wsar10]

Thanks for the reply! I figured that there must be a drain line in there somewhere. From my experience with drain lines on regular AC units, be cautious of build up of algae and blockage, which in the case of these wall units would mean overflowing of water down your wall. It's best to add some diluted bleach a couple of times a season, from what I've found.
I was wondering about power feed to multiple units. I guess they would all be fed from one central box under the house. I know the track wiring system you are talking about. I guess it would be like that but on a bigger scale. I imagine you could dress it up or camouflage it. Very interesting.

YES they will overflow and run down your wall.....
The wiring all runs from the out door unit (along with refrigeration lines), the indoor units run on DC power not AC. The outdoor unit has a built in inverter.
Its a VERY worth while investment, even if you start with a multi-zone out door unit and just start with one indoor and than build on.

 

[tjnamtiw]

DC! Then the indoor units are variable speed, I would assume. Wow, very nice!

 

[wsar10]

DC! Then the indoor units are variable speed, I would assume. Wow, very nice!

Yes,
and have 4 modes;
dry (dehumidifier)
cool
heat
fan

you can program to come or off at certain times, even switch modes within those times.

 

[hyfire]

Here maybe this will help you out those heat pumps look really efficient,, maybe I should use them instead of a PELLET STOVE


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=FQLEA2WFDROCH31UfrRazA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.b2I

 

[tjnamtiw]

Here maybe this will help you out those heat pumps look really efficient,, maybe I should use them instead of a PELLET STOVE


http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFgQFjAB&url=http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/pdf_06/halcyon06_brochure.pdf&ei=xIEwU9zvL6em2gXR44GIDA&usg=AFQjCNFLySNIOiXCYCxlnUBEXLj8M7Ow9A&sig2=FQLEA2WFDROCH31UfrRazA&bvm=bv.62922401,d.b2I

That's the site I was on! You could do a whole house with that 8 zone unit and have one helluva good time programming them all! AND THEN HIDE THE REMOTES Very impressive SEER/(whatever the heating letters are) ratings too coupled with zero lose in ductwork.

 

[hyfire]

The possibilities are endless....but do those heat pumps really work in the cold is the question?

 

[tjnamtiw]

The possibilities are endless....but do those heat pumps really work in the cold is the question?

According to the literature above, some of the models heat down to -15 degrees F giving about 3/4 of their rated capacity! That same one was rated AT capacity down to 3F. Pretty impressive stuff!

 

[hyfire]

According to the literature above, some of the models heat down to -15 degrees F giving about 3/4 of their rated capacity! That same one was rated AT capacity down to 3F. Pretty impressive stuff!

So you think its possible to heat with a heat pump cheaper or the same as a pellet stove? Just did some math on a bigger model 40,000btu output for 18,000 btu power use or 5.2kw. That takes the price of electricity to 1/2 of a BB heater!

Doing more math 40kbtu=60 cents with a wood pellet stove based on $5 a bag
if its 10cents a kw=52 cents. So the heat pump is cheaper to run than a pellet stove, even not taking the 80% efficiency of most stoves...

 

[tjnamtiw]

So you think its possible to heat with a heat pump cheaper or the same as a pellet stove? Just did some math on a bigger model 40,000btu output for 18,000 btu power use or 5.2kw. That takes the price of electricity to 1/2 of a BB heater!

Doing more math 40kbtu=60 cents with a wood pellet stove based on $5 a bag
if its 10cents a kw=52 cents. So the heat pump is cheaper to run than a pellet stove, even not taking the 80% efficiency of most stoves...

Without a doubt, it would be much cheaper to run this mini-splits than a pellet stove! You gain efficiency just by eliminating the ducting losses and then the HSPF is super good, which is the heating efficiency. I'm looking at a multi-unit 36,000 btu one 36RLXFZ that draws 3 Kw so running it 24 hours continuously, which you wouldn't most times, you would use 72 Kwh x .1 equals $7.20. If I run one of my 36,000 btu pellet stoves flat out for 24 hours, I'll use at least 2 bags or $10 worth of pellets. With the split system, you would be turning off rooms you're not using so you'd save even more.

I have a whole house electrical monitoring system and for two years I compared what it was costing me to run my heat pump per day at various outside temps so I could see when it would be worthwhile to switch to pellets. At about 38 degrees, I was still better off running the heat pump BUT the air created drafts because it wasn't much warmer than the room air. It was actually about 90 degrees but it didn't feel like it, especially to the boss so that was our cut over threshold. Now if the heat strips came on, all bets were off! Get those pellet stoves running NOW!

 

[wsar10]

So you think its possible to heat with a heat pump cheaper or the same as a pellet stove? Just did some math on a bigger model 40,000btu output for 18,000 btu power use or 5.2kw. That takes the price of electricity to 1/2 of a BB heater!

Doing more math 40kbtu=60 cents with a wood pellet stove based on $5 a bag
if its 10cents a kw=52 cents. So the heat pump is cheaper to run than a pellet stove, even not taking the 80% efficiency of most stoves...

ABSOLUTELY this is not even a question !
I heat roughly 1600sq ft to a livable temp with a 24k BTU unit (2 12k BTU indoor units) for under $100 a month.
last year I burned a bit more than 100 gal of oil all winter and ran the heat pump 24/7, and they will definitely work down to below zero (some better than others) mine was rated down to (IIRC) 15 and I have ran it down to 0 with some assistance from other sources.

 

[moey]

Without a doubt, it would be much cheaper to run this mini-splits than a pellet stove! You gain efficiency just by eliminating the ducting losses and then the HSPF is super good, which is the heating efficiency. I'm looking at a multi-unit 36,000 btu one 36RLXFZ that draws 3 Kw so running it 24 hours continuously, which you wouldn't most times, you would use 72 Kwh x .1 equals $7.20. If I run one of my 36,000 btu pellet stoves flat out for 24 hours, I'll use at least 2 bags or $10 worth of pellets. With the split system, you would be turning off rooms you're not using so you'd save even more.

.10c kw/hr is pretty cheap in your example. Something to keep in mind for those comparing most the northeast is in the range of 14-16c kw/hr.

 

[tjnamtiw]

.10c kw/hr is pretty cheap in your example. Something to keep in mind for those comparing most the northeast is in the range of 14-16c kw/hr.

You're right about the cost. For me in Ga with our nuke plants and hydro, winter rates are about $.095/Kwh. In the summer they go up to about $.13/Kwh because they throw the natural gas driven inefficient turbines on line to meet demand. Up your way, 'electrical rates will necessarily skyrocket'.

 

[wsar10]

Here in my area in PA, we are roughly $.07/Kwh. I personally have a time of day meter and pay peak and non-peak rates, during the evening and weekends we pay $.04 at most and during the day we pay the $.07.

 

[moey]

Here in my area in PA, we are roughly $.07/Kwh. I personally have a time of day meter and pay peak and non-peak rates, during the evening and weekends we pay $.04 at most and during the day we pay the $.07.

That does not include your supply charge though does it? Id be shocked if you took your total bill and divided by killowatts used your not north of .10 kw/hr.

 

[chken]

Here in my area in PA, we are roughly $.07/Kwh. I personally have a time of day meter and pay peak and non-peak rates, during the evening and weekends we pay $.04 at most and during the day we pay the $.07.

That'd be pretty awesome! The national avg is 11.65 cents/kwh and we pay almost 15 cents/kwh in Maine.

 

[wsar10]

That does not include your supply charge though does it? Id be shocked if you took your total bill and divided by killowatts used your not north of .10 kw/hr.

TOTAL;
is (IIRC, I will double check) $0.139 on/pk 0.111 off/pk