Jotul F3 CB Install

[grambo]

Hello everyone.

We had a second wood stove, the Jotul F3CB, installed this fall. It was installed by the company who had done a wood stove fireplace insert for us last winter.

I have used the new stove a few times after the break in fires conducted per the manual. On windier than normal days here in the Champlain Islands (every day is windy, to some extent) I notice some smoke puffing back through the stove itself and the 30 degree connectors near the top of the stove pipe assembly. This happens only when I am starting the fire. I wasn't very alarmed by this because once the fire is hot, there is good draw and no visible smoke issues.

Regardless, I still found smoke coming back inside the house displeasing and started to think about relocating the woodstove to create a straight run stove pipe assembly as well as changing over to double walled pipe.

During all of this research I ran across all of the clearances for the stove per the sticker on the back of the heatshield, which wasn't installed (is it always necessary??). Following are some pictures, I hope people here can validate my concerns that this installation is completely FUBARed and offer my some guidance as how to go about dealing with my installer as I'm sure some of you that post here are professionals...

Firstly the interior portion of the install:

The clearances required:

Measurement (E)16" of hearth or hearth pad required in front of stove. ~10" shown here:

Measurement (C) 18" clearance from corner to combustible material. ~8.25" shown here

I am reading and interpreting everything correctly, aren't I?

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Yes it looks like you are correct. I've only seen the stove with the heatshield and those clearances are with the rear heat shield in place.

The hearth pad is too small for a corner install. There should be 16" from the stove door to the front of the hearth. The side corner clearances look like they were treating the wall as a protected wall, but it does not look like one. Therefore the corner clearances should be 18" if single-wall stove pipe and 14" if double-wall connector pipe.

How much chimney pipe is sticking above the roof?

PS: are you certain you don't already have double-wall connector pipe? It looks like double-wall.

 

[grambo]

Thanks for the reply.

I found a sticker near the top of one of the angled connectors and it is in fact double-walled pipe, Selkirk DSP.

I wouldn't say it is a protected wall. It is a fairly thick (.75"-1.25") stone veneer directly mounted to drywall and not all of spaces between the stone are filled with mortar. I know the wooden window trim and cloth blinds aren't protected, for sure...

I will post a picture of the chimney tomorrow when I can take a picture in the daylight. But without taking exact measurements it appears that there is around 8 feet of chimney above the roof on that side of the house.

I'm just flummoxed as to how they could have left knowing (or not checking) the clearances required. Seems pretty basic to me. It really makes me question all of the other aspects of their work.

Would it be wise to have another company come out to look at it before I contact the original installer so I have some extra firepower and knowledge on my side?

 

[begreen]

Definitely not a protected wall. Clearance is measured to the drywall so add say 1" nominal to your corner measurement.

It's hard to argue with the manual's stated clearnaces. It's the final say. The manual also explicitly shows what is required to qualify an NFPA 211 ventilated wall shield. Be sure to have it along with you.

Did they remove the top of the stove when installing it?

 

[marajade]

Id be furious. When my oslo gets installed in a few weeks I'm going to be the most annoying customer ever..over the installer's shoulder with a measuring tape the whole time.

 

[grambo]

Well, the primary reason this stuff is coming to my attention now is that I was unable to be around for the install. I do know from their own admission that they broke the traverse bar during install as they had to come back to replace that at a later time (again, I wasn't able to be there for that either). So, looking briefly at the schematics it seems that they had to take the top off to replace the traverse bar, at least, right? Why are you asking if they removed the top?

Id be furious. When my oslo gets installed in a few weeks I'm going to be the most annoying customer ever..over the installer's shoulder with a measuring tape the whole time.
marajade

I'm with ya. I work in a service job in landscaping/property maintainance. Sometimes it is hard to have a client poring over your work and always watching. But in the end, I sometimes remember to remind myself that I am there maintaining/improving their property, so they have a right -almost a duty- to watch my work. And, if anything is learned through this experience so far, I should never have let them do the install until we could coordinate an amicable time for both of us to be there.

 

[grambo]

I think I'll get a second company out to back me up before I call back the original installer. Then I can get some professional information on how they would go about things.

 

[begreen]

The reason I asked about removing the top is to question whether they put it back on correctly. It must lay flat and parallel to the stove body. I made this mistake with my F3CB, that's why I asked. Here is what happened with our stove:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/jotul-f3cb-doesnt-heat-check-the-top-lids-level.27/

 

[grambo]

Thanks for the information. I don't have any symptoms like that. I only notice smoke coming from the stove pipe joints, namely the angled pieces, as well as from the holes that are located above the primary air control assembly. Again, I've only noticed this when it is windy and only when I am starting a new fire.

I will note that when I had made full blown fires in the F3CB, I found the air control to useless to me, with not much of a noticeable reduction in flame volume... Like it can only run hot.

That's very unlike my insert, a Vermont Castings Montpelier, which will immediately display a reduction in flame volume when I reduce the air. If I had to make some sort of comparison between my Montpelier and the F3CB, is that the former feels "tight" and the latter feels "leaky."

Here is a picture of the chimney for the Jotul:

Looking at it a bit closer in full light, the chimney is more like 10' or 11'

 

[grambo]

Does anyone here have experience with a damper in their stove pipe? What are the benefits and/or drawbacks?

I'm thinking I could reduce the wind effectively reversing the draft backing down the entire chimney by adding a damper at the top of the interior stove pipe assembly. I could then open it up once more heat has been generated. Or would that only trap smoke when the fire is starting and help it billow out from the connections?

And, in the event that my draft might be too strong once the fire is established and I might be overfiring (which seems to be why the Jotul's own air control doesn't seem to affect the fires intensity). I could control that with an additional damper.

 

[firefighterjake]

Not sure if it would make a difference or not . . . have you tried opening a nearby window a crack when starting a fire? Generally I only have to do this early and late in the burning season when the outside temps are close to the inside temps. I'm not sure a damper would help your wind situation.

What I do know is that the hearth is too small and the stove is not meeting clearance requirements . . . this should be addressed.

 

[begreen]

I can't see a key damper helping this situation. One thing to check, is the little start air control closed?

 

[grambo]

Yea, I make sure to shut that after the fire has become well established and that little tab gets hot.

I have been perusing this site and admiring all of the knowledge/experience available and I came across all of the cool custom block-off plates for wood inserts. And so I decided to look at what my installer did:

I can only laugh at this point.

It looks like they crudely cut out old pieces of metal from another job and just laid them on top of the smoke shelf. They aren't fastened/sealed in any way and as you can see have some large gaps around the flex liner. They did try to stuff some of the gaps with what must have been spare insulation, but must have ran out as there is another sizeable hole on the other side of the liner. Needless to say, I've been on Amazon putting together a shopping list, and my boss is pretty good with metal cutting/bending.

 

[Woody Stover]

Yikes.

 

[glennm]

Hi
I have the same two stoves as you do. My Montpellier is a nice stove but not really large enough for my needs. My neighbour has a regency i3100 insert that seems to put out a lot more heat than my VC. The Jotul is a great little stove, but it is small. No long fires since you can't put much wood in it, but my draft controls on the Jotul work as well as the Montpellier!

 

[Osagebndr]

After seeing that I can't help but wonder if the pipe is put together properly. Sorry but I hate to see an install look like that. Check it out , smoke coming from pipe joints bothers me also

 

[kennyp2339]

Multiple things going on here grambo, nothing to severe but they need to be addressed as soon as possible. The free standing stove should not be used right now. Its just to close to a combustible wall to be considered safe. The stone veneer does not offer any protection because its mounted to a combustible wall, stone conducts heat, That's why brick chimneys feel cold on the inside when its very cold outside. The stove needs to be moved, the chimney should be adjusted for a strait shot up, and you will need a larger hearth pad. The free stander should be looked at by someone who knows that type of stove, just to make sure whats already broken is the only thing that is broken. The insert looks good, but please do not stuff any old insulation in there unless you know its fire proof (Roxul insulation from home depot, rated to 2150 deg, if you ever hit that temp, you have bigger problems going on then just insulation going on fire)

 

[Rickb]

I get smoke from my pipe if the stove is cold and I dont light the fire top down. You can also get the draft going by lighting some newspaper then putting your wood in once that has warmed the flue a bit. I also have to open a window a crack and leave the stove door opened a crack for a few minutes. As to the rest of the install stuff I wont comment since it looks like you already have good responses.

 

[grambo]

Thanks for the reassurance, input and advice, everyone.

Glennm: That's great information for me to compare to. It struck me as very odd that there is no noticeable change in the Jotuls performance when reducing the air. Thanks!

Osagebndr: I also wonder if the pipe assembly is done well. Some of the crimped ends are exposed more than I think should be.

Kennyp: In regards to my insert, I'm pretty deadset on crafting my own steel block-off that I can secure in the old fire-box mortar joints with tapcons and high temp silicone sealant, like others have done here. I've been looking at 2" Kaowool ceramic insulation rated to 2300 degrees to go on top of that. It's probably overkill, but that's my style and can't see any downside to my plans. Just seeing how nice a job one can do compared to the "professional" work done in my case, I have to do it.

In regards to my F3CB, I got in touch with the owner of the company that did the installation today. I sent the pictures, as well as a few more, to him to show illustrate my concerns as I have done here. In my email to him I also mentioned that I was 100% sure there would need to be a new hearth pad made and that the kitty corner idea would have to be scrapped to get the clearances needed. I haven't heard back from him yet.

I agree that the stove pipe should be a straight shot up. But I'm almost 100% certain that would entail moving the ENTIRE interior and exterior chimney. That means replacing everything they cut out for the original install, as well as replacing a metal roof panel....ugh.

 

[grambo]

After encountering the smoke backdraft I had been putting my propane torch right up near the baffle exit to the flue to warm it up for a minute or two before I even light my fire.

And to put a little more info out there, I only burn kiln dried.

 

[kennyp2339]

Grambo - for the insert, I don't think you need to go that far in depth, as long as the block off plate is not wiggling around I would leave it as is, I don't think the ceramic insulation will provide any real R - rating, I think it will just hurt you wallet more than ever, plus ceramic tends to break down, were the roxul holds up better and has a R*15 rate. I would just pack the base of the chimney above the block off plate with the roxul then re install the metal to give it a finish touch, it shouldn't fall in, as far as sealing all the way around the plate it think it way over kill and if you ever have to remove the plate to replace the liner its gona be tough.

 

[FionaD]

You have my sympathy Grambo. I had the installation from Hell last year.. And it looks like yours will need even more work to put right than mine did.

I have the Jotul F3 and, although I love it, I do find that it fires pretty enthusiastically in high winds - which we get quite often here too in winter (approx 20ft flue inside stone chimney... 1 x 45 deg bend from rear stove exit and 1 x 90deg soon after). I do see a marked difference in the behaviour of the stove when I turn down the air though.. In that the flames move to being secondaries... They flame pretty wildly though in high winds and I do wish I could slow them down, they are clearly in sync with the gusts of wind as they blow. Could that be what's happening with you?

But personally, I would be inclined to get the istallation sorted out before worrying about the air control response, it might well be that some of the fast burn issues may be some sort of knock on effect... I know that I get 100% longer burn times since my own bad installation finally got sorted.

Good luck.. And do keep us posted.

 

[begreen]

Grambo - for the insert, I don't think you need to go that far in depth, as long as the block off plate is not wiggling around I would leave it as is, I don't think the ceramic insulation will provide any real R - rating, I think it will just hurt you wallet more than ever, plus ceramic tends to break down, were the roxul holds up better and has a R*15 rate. I would just pack the base of the chimney above the block off plate with the roxul then re install the metal to give it a finish touch, it shouldn't fall in, as far as sealing all the way around the plate it think it way over kill and if you ever have to remove the plate to replace the liner its gona be tough.

How does ceramic break down? Kaowool is ceramic and has been used around stoves for quite a while including as a baffle blanket. Wrapped around the liner and packed up in the smoke bell it should last the lifetime of the pipe. The main advantage of Roxul is that it is cheaper and easier to find.

 

[kennyp2339]

Begreen, if you have to remove the ceramic "blanket" after it has been exposed to high heat it turns into a mess, little shards of it goes everywhere, I did it last weekend and swear to never use ceramic again for outside issues, if its inside a stove like a baffle blanket then yes, or a boiler / furnace then yes, block off plate, now way, not worth it in my opinion

 

[bholler]

Begreen, if you have to remove the ceramic "blanket" after it has been exposed to high heat it turns into a mess, little shards of it goes everywhere, I did it last weekend and swear to never use ceramic again for outside issues, if its inside a stove like a baffle blanket then yes, or a boiler / furnace then yes, block off plate, now way, not worth it in my opinion

That is all we ever use and it has never been an issue even on old liners that we pull it is fine.

And so I decided to look at what my installer did

Also to the op i cant be sure but it looks like the liner on that insert was installed upside down