Insert into a prefab....newb w/pics...long post

[jc5922]

So I've been reading for a few days and answered a lot of questions. But I've still got some. I've got a prefab fireplace that was built into my basement probably iin the early '90's(before we bought the house). House is about 2100 sq ft. We installed a new heat pump in the summer. I'm looking to supplement the heat pump as the cold air return is only about 15 ft from my basement fireplace. The basement room that the insert will be going in is about 500 sq ft. Current chimney is a 9 and 3/4" pipe that is in perfect shape(other than being so dang big). It's part of a double chimney, one fireplace upstairs and one down.

I know some of you guys recomend tearing these out and starting over, but that's not really the direction I want to go. Not really in the budget plus I like the tile work around the existing fireplace. The fireplace opening dimensions are 19.5" highx19" deepx 25"width in the back x32" wide in the front. The height really limits me to just a few stoves. I've been leaning towards a Buck Model 18. But that's an awfully small stove. Good news is I've found an almost new one for $700...literally had 2 fires in it. New they'll run in the $1400 range. I've talked to a couple of installers(I plan on doing this myself, installers just sold stoves also) and they've said I could cut the bottom out of the prefab unit to make the opening even with the hearth. That would give me an opening height of 22" but it seems kinda odd to go in whackin'. If I could do that, I've had a Buck model 21 priced to me for $900, floor model, with blower and surround. Seems like a really good price to me.

I've also looked at a Jotul C350,that will fit without any cutting, but it's out of my price range at about $2200. Archgard has an insert that should fit for about $1400, but that was one of the installers that said to start cutting. Country Stove by Lennox has a couple of units that will fit in the $1300 to $1600 range, but I'm worried the 4 3/4" lintel(distance from front of stove to the start of the flue opening) will give me trouble. I might could make those work by removing the shield inside the fireplace, but it'll still be real close and I don't have room for an offset box. I also found an Englander 13 nci brand new for $400, but again, I'd have to cut and then it'd be close. Plus the Englander is not approved for prefab units(I'm guesing it burns to hot??). If I can cut the bottom out and make the opening even with the hearth(and take full advantage of the opening from tile to tile) I'm really leaning towards the Buck 21 for the money.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also any suggestions on wheres the cheapest stainless steell flex liner kit would be greatly appreciated. i'm assuming thay i'll need the cap, flex, and the peice that attaches the flex to the stove. I know the current 9 and 3/4' pipe is way to big and has to be sealed off top and bottom. Total length is about 20ft, maybe 21 or 22. What about using single wall stove pipe for the straight part, that leave me needing 5 or 6 ft of flex. But I know most frown on the single wall pipe. Thanks, and sorry for the long first post.

 

[jc5922]

Don't know why the pics aren't showing, here's direct links to them.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-58-36_758.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-59-40_319.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-59-15_22.jpg

 

[begreen]

Just post the images directly to the forum. It works much better. Here are the instructions. Your resampled images should post fine.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/27_2/

For a larger insert with a low profile, look at the Enviro Kodiak 1700.

 

[ernie]

Be careful, we get this question all the time, "can't I just cut the bottom or top out of my prefab to let a bigger insert fit". no you can not. You can generally remove the doors, door frame, smoke guard and damper. That's all! You must leave the liners in and in some cases, you must use the original chimney cap. You must put a liner all the way to the top of the flue. You may be able to use some insulation around the flex liner but maybe not if the flue has an off set.
Do not cut the floor out or the area above the door.
Your best choice is the Buck 18. There is nothing on the market quite like it that is purposely designed to fit a common 36" prefab. Otherwise tear everything out including the flue back to the original studs and put in a new high efficiency fireplace like a Lennox Brentwood. Once you tear it all out you can see what youvhave for framing depth and then choose a that will fit.
Ernie

 

[cejenkinsjr]

I'm new on here too. I just had a contractor cut the floor out of my pre-fab to accommodate a blaze king princess insert. It has me nervous, however we haven't caught the house on fire. glad to hear someone else has suggested this

 

[ernie]

I can't see how the Enviro 1700 would fit, it's too deep for most prefabs. The smaller one might if the flue collar would lineup under the flue hole on the prefab. That's always the problem though, most of the time the flue holeon the insert is too far forward to drop the liner into. It a big expensive mistake to buy a unit in "hope" that it fits.
I would make a template of the top of a prospective insert and put in in my opening, drop a plumb line from my flue center to see how it lined up my my choice of insert.
Many times the flat top ceiling prefabs just can not use almost any insert except a buck 18. Some of the older inserts like the bigger Heatilator with the big domes above the door opening can have more choices. We sometimes can use the quadrafire 2700i. It's biggest drawback is the trim shroud is in a fixed position and difficult to modify if you are trying to keep it within the brick openings. The problem I see with the quad is they make the trim panel too big.
Ernie

 

[begreen]

Looks like the the 1700 would squeak in, but it is asking for a 20" high opening for a prefab. What the pictures don't show is the height of the lower lip of the insert that you are considering cutting. Is it considerably above the insert floor?

 

[ernie]

Where does it say you can cut the lower part of the existing prefab?

 

[Mt Ski Bum]

Don't know why the pics aren't showing, here's direct links to them.

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-58-36_758.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-59-40_319.jpg

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu169/dwknjh6/Mobile Uploads/Resampled_2011-11-08_19-59-15_22.jpg

Pics still won't show... try posting them directly to the forum

 

[ernie]

What you need to figure out is where to center of the flue of the insert will be once it is in the opening compared to where the existing opening is on the original fireplace. Be sure to take into account where the trim panel hits the face of the prefab back to the center of the flue on the insert.
Since you have a 9-3/4 flue you have a bigger opening to hit. The types of pre fab fireplaces in area of the country vary. In my area there are tons of Majestic, Superior and Heatilator and most have 8" flues. There are some of the older heatilators with the 9" solid packed flue pipe too. Actually those are easier to put inserts into than the newer ones.
It's too bad so many builders have put in so many what I consider "junk" fireplaces! We have tons of BC36 units in our area. Most people don't know what they have until it's too late.

Ernie

 

[begreen]

Where does it say you can cut the lower part of the existing prefab?

Your concern is justified and I'm not saying this is an option unless the area being cut down is framing for a door assembly and not violating the insert floor. It would help to see a picture with the insert actually stripped down.

 

[btuser]

That mantle will come off and move out of the way to be re-installed when you finished.
Tile is pretty cheap, and easy to do. I re-did a fireplace and I think it was $50 for polished granite.

You need to get an iron-clad approval that you can put a particular stove inside a particular insert. Most manufactures don't go through the trouble of listing use with other companies stuff. Cutting into the existing insert would need to be an approved modification. Maybe check out the construction/clearances of the fireplace and if the clearances are acceptable then I can't see why the stove wouldn't be good to go inside, but most insurance auditors need to see a piece of paper from the manufacturer. I looked into it but decided by the time I was done I still wasn't going to get what I wanted, and the demo/rebuild is nothing compared to the cost of the stove/pipe.

Besides, another woman picked the tile for our hearth, so it had to go!

 

[jc5922]

The wife likes the fireplace the way it is, but she understands that it's not effiecent in any way. Plus the blue and slate tile match other tile work in the basement and it's impossible to match, already tried. Thus I'm using it as is. I like the Buck model 18, except for it's 1.3 cu ft firebox size, 22,400 btu rating, and it's c effiency rating. All seem kinda low for stove in this price range, but I guess thats the price you pay for having one that'll fit these prefab fireplaces without any modification.

The Lennox Country Striker c160 and Performer c210 will fit the opening, but again I don't think the flue opening is far enough back into the fireplace to attach my liner to. The Archgard 1600I will fit the opening, and the flue appears to go back into the fireplace far enough, as with any of the ones that will fit, it will stick out past the opening and have the open space under the front of the insert. I don't really think that's an ideal solution. They are some other models that will fit but pretty much all of them have the same issue of hanging over the front of the opening. Maybe that's ok, I'm not for sure.

I know it's concrete under the prefab unit, and concrete cinder block behind. We did some drywall work around the unit a couple of years ago and other than the frame around the front of the prefab unit, there's is nothing it's wide open space around the exterior of the prefab unit. I don;t really like the idea of cutting out the bottom, but it should would make things easier. And the $900 for the Buck 21 is a heck of deal, but will only work if I cut. What if I cut the bottom out, put down stove board, caulk the seems with high temp caulk, and then put a ceramic fiber under the stove? Good idea or just plain stupid?

Any suggestions on the chimney liner? Thanks for the help. Here's the pics again.

 

[gasavage]

Another low profile unit to look at is the Quadrafire 2700i. It's angled on the back side to aid in installation.

 

[begreen]

Pull the brass plated doors off so that you can get accurate measurements and to see if the bottom lip has a removable flange. All you need is an inch.

 

[btuser]

It sounds like you've got some things working in your favor. Hope it works out. Can't wait for pics.

 

[webby3650]

I'm new on here too. I just had a contractor cut the floor out of my pre-fab to accommodate a blaze king princess insert. It has me nervous, however we haven't caught the house on fire. glad to hear someone else has suggested this

Unfortunately, you only get one shot at burning the place down. I would be be scared too if I were you, is the princess approved for a pre-fab install? How did he get the liner hooked up? There is rarely room to get your hands around an insert in a pre-fab, with the angled outlet on the princess, it would not be easy in such a small space.

 

[begreen]

Yes, to be clear, there has been no suggestion to cut the floor out of this insert. That would make me nervous too.

 

[jc5922]

I came home from work tonight and took the doors off the front of the fireplace. I've got exactly 19 and 1/2 inches opening height. From the bottom of the hearth to the top of the bottom of the prefab is 2 and 7/8ths. The "firebrick"(I use this term loosely sense its a solid piece of prefab something or anrother) in the bottom of the fireplace is 1 and 3/8ths. The good thing is it's not attached to the sides of the prefab unit, but it is in the bottom real solid. I doubt I could get it out with out cuttin it someway. I really don't won't to do that, besides loosing the integrity of the prefab unit, I'd like to be able to reassemble this thing if say we decide to move ina year or two and take our insert with us. IT's looking more and more like the Buck Model 18. It'll almost mount up flush so they'll be very little over hang. Anymore suggestions would be great. I'm gonna call the guy tonight with the use model 18 and see if he till has it. In the pictures it look like new and he swear it only has had 2 firess in it. He says bottom dollar is $700.

Any sugestions for a block of plate and liner kit? I've got some pretty thick scrap sheet metal I thought about cutting into a plate to fit. It's not stainless but is at least a 1/16th thick. Good enough?

 

[webby3650]

I'm not sure you will need or have room for a block-off plate. If you just use some left over insulation from your liner, (use it to fill in around the liner in the throat of the fire place) you should be good I would think.

 

[jc5922]

I called the guy tonight that has the used Buck Model 18. He still has it. $700 is his bottom dollar. He said it has less than 16 hours burn time, 2 nights worth. Here's a few pics he sent me of it. Anybody know of any other insert's with a height less than 19.5 inches and a depth less than 19 inches...width doesn't seem to be a problem. Also, the flue opening needs to start at least 8 or 9 inches back from the front of the stove. The farther back the better. thanks for all the help.

 

[Mt Ski Bum]

looks like a FPX 33 Elite would fit in your fireplace... & it has a cool looking (to me, at least) arched face http://www.fireplacex.com/ProductGuide/ProductDetail.aspx?modelsku=99800176#Documents

 

[jc5922]

If I'm reading th manual right, the overall height of that insert is 21.5 inches...but I do like the flush mount and arched door.

 

[cejenkinsjr]

Unfortunately, you only get one shot at burning the place down. I would be be scared too if I were you, is the princess approved for a pre-fab install? How did he get the liner hooked up? There is rarely room to get your hands around an insert in a pre-fab, with the angled outlet on the princess, it would not be easy in such a small space,

The Princess 1010A insert is approved for original pre fab that are UL 127 approved, which i have discovered mine is not. The reason for cutting out the floor was to provide room at the top to lower the 6 in liner down, flexible tube, bend it and attach to the insert exhaust.

 

[kingquad]

I second the Enviro suggestion. The removable flue collar is perfect for these low height installs.