In 5 years there will be no permanent Arctic ice left.

[SpaceBus]

here is your blk/wht boxView attachment 244188

You look at a colorful box to access this forum... It's a metaphor.

 

[CaptSpiff]

....... The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.

Really ???

Here's what I hear being said: "Give me all your money and I'll decide how to save the lives of your grandchildren's grandchildren."


The delivery of the "climate change" fanatics is so poor it smells of snake oil.

Lets talk about realistic paths to ecological and environmental improvements that do not economically displace half of the population.


Fact: NYS-DEC just last night rejected a NatGas underwater pipeline connecting supplies in NJ to the Rockaway's, Queens County and Long Island (basically the back door to NYC). This pipeline would lay next to an existing underwater pipeline and increase the area's NG capacity by 14%.

Fact: During the past 3 winter's the 1-2 week Polar Vortex events, the regional gas companies have declared Operational Flow Orders (OFO's) causing price spikes and the industrial users (including many of the largest dual fuel Electrical Generating Plants) to change over to heavy #6 bunker oil. NYC recently implemented a mandate for in-city industrial users of #6 heavy oil to convert to #2 or NG.

Claims: The additional NG availability would allow residential home heating customers the choice to convert from #2 heating oil to NatGas when their systems are ready for upgrade. The regional gas company states it will reintroduce a "new construction gas moratorium" to protect the system from future supply shortages. Industrial user will face higher cost of conversion without available fuel supply competition.

Claims: "Environmental activists" protesting outside the NYS-DEC offices in NYC are claiming victory and are cancelling their "Hunger Strike" in opposition to the pipeline. They strongly oppose any new "fossil fuel supplies" into the region (because we're all gonna die in 12 years if we do).


That smell of snake oil I mentioned earlier,... that's the smell of more liquid petroleum products being transported via barge, truck and trailers throughout NYC and Long Island. More traffic on the highways, more traffic in the communities, more liquid pertolium spills on the ground and into the drinking aquifer. Sounds like another ecological and environmental win to me.... (for Big Oil and the Koch Bros).

rant mode off

 

[paulnlee]

For your reading pleasure, or not. " Dark Winter" by John Casey. Very short read

 

[Doug MacIVER]

I am posting this here, not for discussion or comment, it is close to the topic. Info onlyhttps://www.huffpost.com/entry/jay-inslee-jobs_n_5cdc8ae4e4b09648227aae06

 

[Doug MacIVER]

part of the problem is this prediction stuff? throw enough against wall, yada-yada. Midwest/ Cali. as an example
#1https://www.21stcentech.com/climate-change-update-return-dust-bowl/

#2https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-1000-years-climate-change-predict-scientists

#3https://www.climatecentral.org/news/why-californias-drought-isnt-going-anywhere-17277
Notice dates?

Fast forward, today we are readi
#! https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/news-and-prophecy/midwest-flooding-not-over

#2 podesta got both covered?https://thinkprogress.org/the-impac...roughts-more-floods-fewer-crops-af7b033f1a7c/

#3 this one is optimistic.http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/blogs/food_blog/it-s-official-dust-bowl-brewing-is-coming-soon-to/article_8d9dc9ce-e210-11e8-a091-1b05fd675622.htm

just to bring out the alarmism.

back to arctic, I follow this everyday. Why, I'm curious how it's doin, http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php You can follow 51 yrs of Arctic temps here

 

[Woody Stover]

And that hypothesis is backed by?

Well, I heard somewhere that other planets in the solar system are warming as well. I think there are a lot of factors at play in warming, including the sun.
Regardless, it's ridiculous that we are still driving around in hundred-year-old technology. Hey, we were supposed to flying around like the Jetsons by now!

In the meantime, some rub their hands with glee at the prospect of an ice-free Arctic.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dail...tinction-vs-mike-pompeo-at-the-arctic-council

Yeah, another chance for businesses to save money and create more jobs for us working-class Americans in the heartland. We'll be thrilled...until we come home from work one day and our houses have floated away.

I am not denying that there is a certain amount of factual evidence too support climate change - but most of what we hear are for the benefit of few making money off of it.

I don't think anybody makes more off it than Big Oil. They have a big stake in keeping things as they are, and they have the firepower to make it happen. I agree, though, there's more than just us causing the planet to heat up. Still, at least we can control what we are doing to contribute to the problem. But changing would require work and sacrifice, and who the heck wants to do that?

In the meantime, the very measurable and serious concern is the absorption of CO2 into the oceans. The consequences of ocean acidification are global and with potentially dire results.
(broken link removed to https://public.wmo.int/en/resources/bulletin/monitoring-ocean-carbon-and-ocean-acidification-0)

That absorption is helping with the atmosphere right now but like you say, you have to pay off the loan at some point.
Frank Zappa said it; "The Ocean is the Ultimate Solution."

 

[WinterinWI]

The global climate is changing, it's foolish to bicker about why.

The "why" is what matters. Without understanding all aspects of what is happening, the solution suggested by the original article (radical WWII style transformation) is speculation. It may be based on data and our current understanding of why, but our knowledge to evaluate all factors of our planet/solar system is woefully inadequate to make grandiose claims like the original article that started this thread.

Of course the climate is changing, it always has. Efforts should be made to advance our understanding, and we should try to be environmentally responsible without crippling ourselves. The article in the initial post is just another recycled message with a political purpose. To sum it up: The earth's fate is sealed in 3.6 years, do as I say if you want you kids/grandchildren to survive.

I can feel the eyes rolling from anyone who heard the same story 25 years ago.

 

[begreen]

Yup, that is an issue. The problem is that Gore and others were not completely incorrect about the issue or the need to address it. They are criticized for speaking up early and championing gradual changes early on to minimize impact instead of drastic and much more expensive late measures during a crisis. Unfortunately, most Americans are complacent until things reach a crisis state. It's much easier to whip the masses via gross disinformation into a contrived, but very costly war.

 

[begreen]

In the meantime, Europe got the message and started making changes in the 1990s. By now they are further along and gaining momentum toward the goal of fossil fuel independence and reduced emissions. They also have tackled waste head-on, making dramatic progress. All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact.

 

[Doug MacIVER]

well every thing ends off topic?Answers lakeroadster at the end with? " It's much easier to whip the masses via gross disinformation into a contrived, but very costly war." the in second post adds at the end ?(europe) " They also have tackled waste head-on, making dramatic progress. All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact." in the middle says? "Unfortunately, most Americans are complacent until things reach a crisis state." Ok stop reminding us we are the problem, own up to your one sided drivil(sp). America sucks and we just don't get it,your healt hcare mess is melting ice, and because everyone hates us. geez stick to the topic, starting to question why we are still here.
then there is the non answer to the erroneous chart? chart posted as the dial for global change, ie, no ice in the attic????

 

[Ashful]

In the meantime, Europe got the message and started making changes in the 1990s... All this while providing national healthcare and keeping their economies intact.

REALLY? Holy crap, begreen... you need to get to Europe sometime. You know I travel there semi-frequently for work, and can tell you it has become a mess over the last decade, in every sense of the word. I sincerely hope we aren't following their lead.

Not knocking their environmental efforts, but seriously... Europe is almost becoming unsafe for travel, in the last three years. And their economy... oh, holy chit... their economy!

 

[SpaceBus]

REALLY? Holy crap, begreen... you need to get to Europe sometime. You know I travel there semi-frequently for work, and can tell you it has become a mess over the last decade, in every sense of the word. I sincerely hope we aren't following their lead.

Not knocking their environmental efforts, but seriously... Europe is almost becoming unsafe for travel, in the last three years. And their economy... oh, holy chit... their economy!

What makes it so unsafe for travel? I lived in Europe full time (Italy and the UK) from 03-07. I get economies appear to be unstable, brexit, etc. But is it really any different from any time period in European history? People are trumping up immigrants and diaspora from the middle east like the world is ending, as if migration is new....

 

[Ashful]

What makes it so unsafe for travel? I lived in Europe full time (Italy and the UK) from 03-07. I get economies appear to be unstable, brexit, etc. But is it really any different from any time period in European history? People are trumping up immigrants and diaspora from the middle east like the world is ending, as if migration is new....

I was spending about a week per year there in 03-07, and yes, those were good years. In 2017 Germany’s immigration rate jumped from 30,000 per month to over 200,000 per month, completely outrunning their MOI’s ability to process them. They have had to repurpose school gymnasiums and other large public buildings to cot floors just to bed all of them while they await processing. The other larger mainland nations aren’t far behind, mostly varying by their economic standing, as the immigrants don’t want to immigrate to those countries having financial difficulty.

Out in town, you will now find most public attractions surrounded by concrete highway barriers and metal detectors, thanks to a recent rash of terrorist attacks. Tourist kidnappings are up 20% in five years. Germany’s net crime rate has been increasing at 10% per year, the last three years, and according to their MoFA, 90% of that increase is committed by recent immigrants.

Europe today is not what it was 10 years ago. I have been traveling there pretty consistent since the mid-1990’s, and the change in some countries (eg. Germany) is shocking.

I have not been back to Italy since about 2009, so no comment there. I have been in the UK a few times, most recently around 2016, and they seem more isolated from the problems hitting mainland. The UK isn’t really “Europe”, in most social contexts, they are at such odds with the mainlanders. No wonder they want out!

 

[SpaceBus]

I was spending about a week per year there in 03-07, and yes, those were good years. In 2017 Germany’s immigration rate jumped from 30,000 per month to over 200,000 per month, completely outrunning their MOI’s ability to process them. They have had to repurpose school gymnasiums and other large public buildings to cot floors just to bed all of them while they await processing. The other larger mainland nations aren’t far behind, mostly varying by their economic standing, as the immigrants don’t want to immigrate to those countries having financial difficulty.

Out in town, you will now find most public attractions surrounded by concrete highway barriers and metal detectors, thanks to a recent rash of terrorist attacks. Tourist kidnappings are up 20% in five years. Germany’s net crime rate has been increasing at 10% per year, the last three years, and according to their MoFA, 90% of that increase is committed by recent immigrants.

Europe today is not what it was 10 years ago. I have been traveling there pretty consistent since the mid-1990’s, and the change in some countries (eg. Germany) is shocking.

I have not been back to Italy since about 2009, so no comment there. I have been in the UK a few times, most recently around 2016, and they seem more isolated from the problems hitting mainland. The UK isn’t really “Europe”, in most social contexts, they are at such odds with the mainlanders. No wonder they want out!

This immigration thing is quite serious and is a direct result of Western nations destroying the Middle East and their local climates becoming too hot anyway. People want to refuse these immigrants, but they have nowhere to go. Their countries are rubble and 130f during the day. I'm not surprised crime is increasing when there are an additional million people living in every country in Europe. Trust me, those immigrants don't want to be there any more than you want to leave your lifetime home to live some place nobody wants you.

Like begreen said, this is all a result of selfishness, particularly of the western world.

I agree, the UK isn't mainland Europe, but I was able to travel from the UK to Slovakia, Italy, Germany, and many other nations on the super cheap. I actually hate the UK and have no desire to ever go back. English people are jerks. Wales and Scotland are alright, but have never been to Ireland or the Isle of Mann.

 

[Ashful]

I’m 1/4 English, so 1/4 jerk. [emoji14]

All recorded crime comes down to affluence, or lack thereof. When people complain about immigrants, they’re really mostly complaining about poor, disenfranchised people. Of course, it’s not hard to understand NIMBY attitude, either.

I wonder how mass migration affects polar ice? Lots of calories being burned, there. [emoji14]

 

[SpaceBus]

I’m 1/4 English, so 1/4 jerk. [emoji14]

All recorded crime comes down to affluence, or lack thereof. When people complain about immigrants, they’re really mostly complaining about poor, disenfranchised people. Of course, it’s not hard to understand NIMBY attitude, either.

I wonder how mass migration affects polar ice? Lots of calories being burned, there. [emoji14]

The mass migrations are a symptom of climate change, but I'm sure the fossil fuels used to move these thousands and thousands of people around the globe is making the problems worse. It's a difficult situation. This is why I don't understand why people fight about humans causing this issue or not causing it. The climate is already changing, so let's just focus on damage control since the "fix the problem" boat already sailed (or never existed). The southeast is turning back into a swamp/under water, deserts are getting hotter, things are changing and polluting more certainly isn't going to help, even if that wasn't the root cause of these shifts.

Regardless of the actual amount of damage being done by living unsustainable lifestyles something needs to change. Lobster, haddock, cod, and herring were once seafood staples are now going away. Laws are soon to go into effect that will cripple the fishing industry, but they will also keep these species around for the future. Nobody is saying we need to stop eating seafood, but that we need to sustainable plan to eating seafood. This is just one example of thousands. It's like the whole world is being managed in the same way the DoD runs business.

 

[begreen]

Huge tangent. The point about Europe was how they have been making progress for a quarter of a century toward reducing CO2 and waste. I will say that I expect to be in Europe in the fall so I will see how it feels to me. I have friends that just got back this week from 40 days in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France and England. They go every other year so I'll ask them about changes, though overall they say they had a great time. I also have a friend and coworker that now is the CEO of a major German software company. He and his family moved there about 5 yrs. ago, so I will ask their opinion. He has never mentioned security in several conversations. His kids love their schools. But this is all for another thread and topic. In the meantime, there are parts of Philly, NY, Chicago, LA and even Seattle that are not exactly where one wants to wander around in, especially after dark. Europe is more vulnerable due to location and is seeing a lot more climate refugees. This will not get better. Seems like this thread has worn itself out. Start another if one wants to do society comparisons.