I need a liitle help identifying my new saw

[DMZX]

XL12, as was previously stated, very noisy. Low chain speed, but lots of torque. Those things built like old Soviet products, heavy and bullet proof.

After running one all day long I use to wake up the next day with my hands seized up in a claw. No anti-vibration on the XL.

 

[ScotO]

If it were me I would buy a more modern saw with a break on it. Them old saws are a bit dangerous. A new saw is much cheaper than a trip to the Emergency room!
just my .02

That is not necessarily true about the danger. Sorry, but many folks have run those saws for years without any problems. Shoot, the saw I started with was an old gear drive with no safely frills. Heavy bugger though.

Danger is sometimes over-rated. Folks want to be protected from all so-called danger and then they seem to manufacture more danger out of lesser things.

I agree Dennis, everybody wants "guarantees" and "insurance" ....where's the "accountability" anymore?.....there is not ONE NEW SAW that impresses me, esp. in the price and quality, which almost all of the old saws had.....NOT ONE!....they are cheap, plastic, throwaways.....anyways, with proper knoweledge and always being aware of what you are doing (which if you don't do either, you shouldn't be running ANY saw) you should have no problems.....keep yer chain sharp, keep yer tip away from everything, keep the bar and chain lubed and adjusted properly and you're good to go.....I LOVE those old, noisy saws!! and one more thing, these old saws will last for many years to come if you STAY AWAY from synthetic mix......the synthetic mix (when combined with ethanol) provides little to no real protection for the piston/cylinder.....even in the new saws....Use a good, marine quality TCW3 oil for your mix.......

 

[Bubbavh]

I agree with you guys on accountability. What I was saying here is the old saw here is real Heavy with a lot of torque and no antivibe or break. If you are going to be using this you will get tired faster and with numb hands it can get away from you. Stuff happens when you get tired.
It was just an opinion!
Bub

 

[wkpoor]

If it were me I would buy a more modern saw with a break on it. Them old saws are a bit dangerous. A new saw is much cheaper than a trip to the Emergency room!
just my .02

That is not necessarily true about the danger. Sorry, but many folks have run those saws for years without any problems. Shoot, the saw I started with was an old gear drive with no safely frills. Heavy bugger though.

Danger is sometimes over-rated. Folks want to be protected from all so-called danger and then they seem to manufacture more danger out of lesser things.

I agree Dennis, everybody wants "guarantees" and "insurance" ....where's the "accountability" anymore?.....there is not ONE NEW SAW that impresses me, esp. in the price and quality, which almost all of the old saws had.....NOT ONE!....they are cheap, plastic, throwaways.....anyways, with proper knoweledge and always being aware of what you are doing (which if you don't do either, you shouldn't be running ANY saw) you should have no problems.....keep yer chain sharp, keep yer tip away from everything, keep the bar and chain lubed and adjusted properly and you're good to go.....I LOVE those old, noisy saws!! and one more thing, these old saws will last for many years to come if you STAY AWAY from synthetic mix......the synthetic mix (when combined with ethanol) provides little to no real protection for the piston/cylinder.....even in the new saws....Use a good, marine quality TCW3 oil for your mix.......

There was a day when I thought petty close to you, that was until I attended my first racing GTG. There were many classes some for bone stock saws. I got my but beat so bad it was very embarrassing. Didn't take me long to learn that chainsaw technology had progressed a long way. Those old Homelites would be like putting a 1950 Chevy against a 2011 Camero. Sure the old cars are neat and nostalgia but ain't no way going to perform like the new stuff. I now run saws with a 1/3 the weight and twice the power. I don't run ethanol but I do run synthetic mix. Wouldn't dream of using a marine mix in a chainsaw. That is reeeeeeal old school. They make 2 cycle oil for chainsaws....use it! Put down the old Homies (as we call them) and pick up a modern powerful lightweight tool.

 

[ScotO]

If it were me I would buy a more modern saw with a break on it. Them old saws are a bit dangerous. A new saw is much cheaper than a trip to the Emergency room!
just my .02

That is not necessarily true about the danger. Sorry, but many folks have run those saws for years without any problems. Shoot, the saw I started with was an old gear drive with no safely frills. Heavy bugger though.

Danger is sometimes over-rated. Folks want to be protected from all so-called danger and then they seem to manufacture more danger out of lesser things.

I agree Dennis, everybody wants "guarantees" and "insurance" ....where's the "accountability" anymore?.....there is not ONE NEW SAW that impresses me, esp. in the price and quality, which almost all of the old saws had.....NOT ONE!....they are cheap, plastic, throwaways.....anyways, with proper knoweledge and always being aware of what you are doing (which if you don't do either, you shouldn't be running ANY saw) you should have no problems.....keep yer chain sharp, keep yer tip away from everything, keep the bar and chain lubed and adjusted properly and you're good to go.....I LOVE those old, noisy saws!! and one more thing, these old saws will last for many years to come if you STAY AWAY from synthetic mix......the synthetic mix (when combined with ethanol) provides little to no real protection for the piston/cylinder.....even in the new saws....Use a good, marine quality TCW3 oil for your mix.......

There was a day when I thought petty close to you, that was until I attended my first racing GTG. There were many classes some for bone stock saws. I got my but beat so bad it was very embarrassing. Didn't take me long to learn that chainsaw technology had progressed a long way. Those old Homelites would be like putting a 1950 Chevy against a 2011 Camero. Sure the old cars are neat and nostalgia but ain't no way going to perform like the new stuff. I now run saws with a 1/3 the weight and twice the power. I don't run ethanol but I do run synthetic mix. Wouldn't dream of using a marine mix in a chainsaw. That is reeeeeeal old school. They make 2 cycle oil for chainsaws....use it! Put down the old Homies (as we call them) and pick up a modern powerful lightweight tool.

I have torn apart dozens of these newer saws that had the piston ring fried because of modern mix oil....everything is throwaway anymore, no thanks for what I do with my saws (and I cut a hell of a lot) I'll stick with old school.....

 

[Bubbavh]

I have torn apart dozens of these newer saws that had the piston ring fried because of modern mix oil....everything is throwaway anymore, no thanks for what I do with my saws (and I cut a hell of a lot) I'll stick with old school.....

Newer 2 cycle oils (for air cooled engines) are designed for the newer fuel (10% ethanol in most cases) and the better oils even include fuel stabilizers.
The saws you have pulled apart with fried piston and rings are due to bad fuel (old or not mixed properly) or cheap oil or the wrong oil. Not because of modern oil.
I'm a big fan of the Echo power blend for all my air cooled engines. It cost a little more but it has fuel stabilizer and is a very good oil.

 

[wkpoor]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

 

[smokinj]

I have to disagree on the SawStop. If it triggers, you have to replace a cartridge, about $70, and the blade. The blade gets embedded in an alumium chunk and stops within a tooth rotation and retracts beneath the table. Super cool to see, but priceless if it saves a finger or worse. Or that of, say, a son. It's the first tool I'll purchase for the shop once I get to that point. All the reviews are outstanding, not only have the safety, but also a top notch cabinet saw. Yep, it will set up back an extra few bills, but next time you're talking to your buddy and notice the digit missing on his finger, ask yourself how much is it worth. Are must "accidents" due to carelessness or stupidity? Yep. Are all? Nope. And when it comes down to it, does it matter? Yeah, I agree, it does. But then again, it's a whole 'lot cheaper than a trip to the ER, as stated above.

My understanding is if you cut in wet wood, you may trigger it. So you can override the safety mechanism with a key switch if you desire. It works by sensing the capacitance of the material being cut. Wet, like me and you, and we change the frequency of a signal applied to the blade. When it changes enough, it triggers the mechanism.

It'd be one thing it if was a crappy saw with a safety...but they made a top notch cabinet saw that rivals all the others. Have a high end commercial version, a nice serious hobbyiest cabinet saw, and I think they annouced a cheaper contractor style.

For my 10 fingers, and especially when I think about my wife and son, not sure I could purchase a better insurance plan. Just imagine if such a thing was mounted to our chainsaws. That accidently swipe through the leg, foot, arm, head, whatever....wouldn't be a problem. Yep, that's what boots and chaps are for, I agree. But for those of you with stitches...wouldn't it have been nice to buy a new chain and $80 for a new module instead of paying for 30 stitches? Sh!t happens...might as well prevent it if you can.

Off the soap box now.

You miss the point. This thing has went off 3 time now 70.00 a pop. Great saw yes! Just a little to sensitive. Now this saw will be mine soon. The saw its self ROCKS. You just got to learn that it going to stop even when your just close. I can get use to it. (70.00 makes a quick study)

 

[smokinj]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

 

[wkpoor]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

 

[smokinj]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

Dont know.....25 cords in my saw would be 12-15 gallons just depending on How much "Big Thirsty" gets used. :lol:

 

[ScotO]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

we cut 30 cords of hardwood, and probably 20 or so of pine this summer (i give the pine away) never had one single problem with any of my saws, I run this sh*t ethanol gas and use TCW3 oil.....regularly check my cylinders and no issues whatsover....I do safegard my saw and run around 30:1, I do not trust the synthetic oil with ethanol gas.....found a local saw shop who sells aviation fuel, I am switching over to that this winter....that stuff I would trust to run the synthetic in, I do not trust it in the ethanol gas...ethanol gas goes through phase seperation, and a lot of those synthetic oils have teflon in them.....I have seen pistons out of motors that ran ethanol gas/synthetic oil that had a plastic-like film on the piston, and were scored to hell....not because of lack of lubrication, but because of phase separation....that also will allow water to lay in the small ports in the carburetors and can ruin them too....and the fuel lines....etc....you guys ain't gonna change my opinion on this subject, nor do I plan on changin your opinion......so you go ahead and run yer synthetic and replace yer piston/jug a couple of times to my not changin them at all.....to each is own...

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

we cut 30 cords of hardwood, and probably 20 or so of pine this summer (i give the pine away) never had one single problem with any of my saws, I run this sh*t ethanol gas and use TCW3 oil.....regularly check my cylinders and no issues whatsover....I do safegard my saw and run around 30:1, I do not trust the synthetic oil with ethanol gas.....found a local saw shop who sells aviation fuel, I am switching over to that this winter....that stuff I would trust to run the synthetic in, I do not trust it in the ethanol gas...ethanol gas goes through phase seperation, and a lot of those synthetic oils have teflon in them.....I have seen pistons out of motors that ran ethanol gas/synthetic oil that had a plastic-like film on the piston, and were scored to hell....not because of lack of lubrication, but because of phase separation....that also will allow water to lay in the small ports in the carburetors and can ruin them too....and the fuel lines....etc....you guys ain't gonna change my opinion on this subject, nor do I plan on changin your opinion......so you go ahead and run yer synthetic and replace yer piston/jug a couple of times to my not changin them at all.....to each is own...

We had a local lawn & garden shop that had a bunch of 2 cycle tools fail because the synthetic oil they were selling had separated out. They advised to shake the can every time fuel was added. Randy

 

[CaddyUser]

Yup, an XL12. Man that brings back memories for me - that was the saw that I learned to cut with.

We had two of them on the farm - dad bought them after our dairy barn burned to the ground back in the 70's. 'Uncle Bob' (actually Uncle-In-Law) taught me to hand sharpen, and all of the maintenance/repair on the saws while my oldest brother and he cut. Those two saws felled about 300-400 cord of lumber in what seemed to be no time at all. That lumber built the new dairy barn (125+ head of animals) with a little left over.

Bob was really good about safety with those saws, and taught me well. He walked me through felling, limbing, bucking - the whole process, right by me all of the time. Then it was time by the campfire drinking black tea and eating biscuits.

Good memories......

 

[smokinj]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

we cut 30 cords of hardwood, and probably 20 or so of pine this summer (i give the pine away) never had one single problem with any of my saws, I run this sh*t ethanol gas and use TCW3 oil.....regularly check my cylinders and no issues whatsover....I do safegard my saw and run around 30:1, I do not trust the synthetic oil with ethanol gas.....found a local saw shop who sells aviation fuel, I am switching over to that this winter....that stuff I would trust to run the synthetic in, I do not trust it in the ethanol gas...ethanol gas goes through phase seperation, and a lot of those synthetic oils have teflon in them.....I have seen pistons out of motors that ran ethanol gas/synthetic oil that had a plastic-like film on the piston, and were scored to hell....not because of lack of lubrication, but because of phase separation....that also will allow water to lay in the small ports in the carburetors and can ruin them too....and the fuel lines....etc....you guys ain't gonna change my opinion on this subject, nor do I plan on changin your opinion......so you go ahead and run yer synthetic and replace yer piston/jug a couple of times to my not changin them at all.....to each is own...

We had a local lawn & garden shop that had a bunch of 2 cycle tools fail because the synthetic oil they were selling had separated out. They advised to shake the can every time fuel was added. Randy

;-)

 

[lctatlp]

Thanks for the ID on the saw.

I cut up a giant maple at my Mom's house up in Fremont NH this past Wednesday. 16" to 32" in diameter. No problems, but wow, I hold that saw tight.. Gotta be fighting this saw sometimes.
I read a bunch of post about buying a new saw over running these old saws. not sure what I think about it but I will be buying a helmet.
This saw cuts fast like u would not believe.

 

[ScotO]

Thanks for the ID on the saw.

I cut up a giant maple at my Mom's house up in Fremont NH this past Wednesday. 16" to 32" in diameter. No problems, but wow, I hold that saw tight.. Gotta be fighting this saw sometimes.
I read a bunch of post about buying a new saw over running these old saws. not sure what I think about it but I will be buying a helmet.
This saw cuts fast like u would not believe.

There's nothin wrong with that old saw, it will long outlive any of these new saws.....yes the old saws vibrate more, yes they are heavier, no they don't rev as high as the new ones....but they will be cuttin in 20 years while the new plastic ones will not be.....just use common sense, awareness, and always watch what you are doing...oh and use earplugs with that XL 'cause they are LOUD.....

 

[ScotO]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

Dont know.....25 cords in my saw would be 12-15 gallons just depending on How much "Big Thirsty" gets used. :lol:

What are you running smokinjay? I know my old 075AV is a gas guzzling beast too!.....111cc's tends to drink a little more than the average peep.....

 

[wkpoor]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

Dont know.....25 cords in my saw would be 12-15 gallons just depending on How much "Big Thirsty" gets used. :lol:

I'll bet the average Jo doesn't use 2 gallons a year. And thats a lot of cutting unless your making a bunch of small pieces out of big ones.

 

[wkpoor]

Yep I've torn them down too, and in every case it was simple lack of lube in the gas. I wouldn't dare trust one of my race saws to marine 2 cycle. My saws turn 12-14,000 rpm and you need oil designed for that kind of speed. Same oil is good for all chainsaws. Get on Arboristsite or racesaws.com and start talkin that trash and see where it goes.

Oh please we need a good oil thread....There about 20,000 of them wish I had some popcorn! :lol:

I try to stay off the oil threads. But really now, most people even if they cut 25 cords a year only burn a couple gallons or least less than 5. Why wouldn't you buy a good quailty oil made for chainsaws and not water cooled outboards?

we cut 30 cords of hardwood, and probably 20 or so of pine this summer (i give the pine away) never had one single problem with any of my saws, I run this sh*t ethanol gas and use TCW3 oil.....regularly check my cylinders and no issues whatsover....I do safegard my saw and run around 30:1, I do not trust the synthetic oil with ethanol gas.....found a local saw shop who sells aviation fuel, I am switching over to that this winter....that stuff I would trust to run the synthetic in, I do not trust it in the ethanol gas...ethanol gas goes through phase seperation, and a lot of those synthetic oils have teflon in them.....I have seen pistons out of motors that ran ethanol gas/synthetic oil that had a plastic-like film on the piston, and were scored to hell....not because of lack of lubrication, but because of phase separation....that also will allow water to lay in the small ports in the carburetors and can ruin them too....and the fuel lines....etc....you guys ain't gonna change my opinion on this subject, nor do I plan on changin your opinion......so you go ahead and run yer synthetic and replace yer piston/jug a couple of times to my not changin them at all.....to each is own...

You might have missed it but I don't run any ethenol at all. I only run AvGas so yes I wouldn't see any fuel mix related problems that people running pump gas might see.
Few yrs back I picked up a SuperXL for chits and grins. After having moved on to the new stuff it was like how in the heck did I ever use these things before. And believe me I was as gun ho as you for the old stuff. I tell everyone. Go to a local GTG and see for yourself. Don't take anyones word. That what it took to change my mind. After you see what the new stuff can do you'll be a changed person too.

 

[wkpoor]

Thanks for the ID on the saw.

I cut up a giant maple at my Mom's house up in Fremont NH this past Wednesday. 16" to 32" in diameter. No problems, but wow, I hold that saw tight.. Gotta be fighting this saw sometimes.
I read a bunch of post about buying a new saw over running these old saws. not sure what I think about it but I will be buying a helmet.
This saw cuts fast like u would not believe.

There's nothin wrong with that old saw, it will long outlive any of these new saws.....yes the old saws vibrate more, yes they are heavier, no they don't rev as high as the new ones....but they will be cuttin in 20 years while the new plastic ones will not be.....just use common sense, awareness, and always watch what you are doing...oh and use earplugs with that XL 'cause they are LOUD.....

Hey Scotty, I see you over on the other forum. Question....would you go back to a pre EPA stove???? If the answer is no then why you so bull headed on the saws thing?

 

[lctatlp]

The XL ran just fine, although it may need a carb rebuild, or something else... not sure. Under 50% throttle it is bogging, once I get over that it rips.
Do you guys know where I can find a 20" for my saw? I got the saw with an 18" blade and chain but I was told it came with a 20"

 

[wkpoor]

Could be simple as Low needle setting. One thing to look at in an old saw is the fuel hose in the tank. Older hand held power equipment has rubber components that will desolve in ethanol fuel. Anything gooy will need replaced. Other then a basic tune lots of things can effect transitioning from low to high. Very first thing to do with 2 strokes is compression test. Gots to have good compression for it to run right.

 

[lctatlp]

Could be the low speed idle. I did take it to McDougals up here.
What should the compression test read?

 

[ScotO]

Thanks for the ID on the saw.

I cut up a giant maple at my Mom's house up in Fremont NH this past Wednesday. 16" to 32" in diameter. No problems, but wow, I hold that saw tight.. Gotta be fighting this saw sometimes.
I read a bunch of post about buying a new saw over running these old saws. not sure what I think about it but I will be buying a helmet.
This saw cuts fast like u would not believe.

There's nothin wrong with that old saw, it will long outlive any of these new saws.....yes the old saws vibrate more, yes they are heavier, no they don't rev as high as the new ones....but they will be cuttin in 20 years while the new plastic ones will not be.....just use common sense, awareness, and always watch what you are doing...oh and use earplugs with that XL 'cause they are LOUD.....

Hey Scotty, I see you over on the other forum. Question....would you go back to a pre EPA stove???? If the answer is no then why you so bull headed on the saws thing?

Actually I have a pre-EPA stove, in my workshop.....and my answer is, if the new EPA stoves didn't impress me, then yes I would....but these new EPA stoves DO impress me....I have run the newer saws, many of them.....don't get me wrong, they are lightweight and all, but I am bullheaded about the old stuff because it holds up better.....my buddy who cuts with me has an MS290, running an 18" bar, and the thing is a turd if you try to muscle it at all....I can push my old 041av to the limit and have a hard time bogging it down, I even got pinched in a huge willow with that Super this year and had to step back and let mother nature do her thing.....sure when it came down it did some damage, but I went over to that saw, pulled the cord and it started right back up.....later that evening I had it back together with parts from my Stihl graveyard and she was good as new again.....my other buddy has a MS660 Magnum, nice and light, screams like a banshee, but my 075 will turn bigger bars, and if you ask me it will run circles around that saw....maybe not as fast but I don't have a thousand dollars wrapped up in my saw, either....My point here is, I like what I like, you like what you like.....you talked about racing saws, I find racing saws senseless....just my personal opinion....I use my saws for cutting a lot of wood, sometimes very big jobs (I probably went through almost 15 gallons of gas this year alone), and I enjoy tinkering on them, I do all my own work and repairs (even building the dual ported mufflers, I even forge my own bucking spikes on a farrier's forge),....you may find all that stuff senseless, but I enjoy doing that...the moral of the story, I ain't knockin you for what you like, so why you knockin me? I just don't like the plastic crap, which all of these modern saws are anymore.....if I had to break down and buy a new saw, it would be a redmax......even my beloved Stihls do not impress me anymore.....they've all gone chain-store crazy, just like the sub-grade John Deeres sold at Lowes..all in the name of commercialism...so I am sticking with my old magnesium junk.....it serves me well!