I have a brainstorm idea, dont hang me, just questions

[bholler]

True, the heat needs to be eventually transferred to the room to achieve efficient heating. How efficient the stove is at doing this can be measured by two things:

1) exhaust gas temperature
2) exhaust gas volume (velocity)

All heat that doesn't go up the flue ends up in the room, no matter how well insulated the various burn chambers are. The stove should be designed such that, once the exhaust gasses are completely combusted, they pass by enough radiating surfaces to cool them to the desired temperature. Too much cooling and the flue won't work properly, not enough and efficiency goes down.

You will note that in my proposed design, at low burn rates, the exhaust gasses have a more direct route to the chimney while, at higher burn rates, the gases are directed via a more circuitous route, exposing them to more surfaces so the heat can be transferred to the room via radiation or convection. In otherwords, a super-insulated combustion chamber is not incompatible with high final efficiencies. The goal is to separate the area of the stove where combustion happens from those areas of the stove where the heat is transfered to the room. Current designs do this but to a smaller degree. By separating these functions, a much larger BTU output range can be realized while simultaneously increasing overall efficiencies.



Yes, with currently available stoves. The design goal of the stove I'm proposing would bring long, clean and efficient burns to non-cat stoves.

I understand what you are proposing and why you are doing it. In theory it works. But in practice everyone who has tried it so far has created a tempermental hard to maintain stove. I am not saying it could not work just that it has been multiple times before with poor results.

 

[begreen]

How about blowing the secondary burn downward into a beautiful vortex of awesomeness?

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Looks like a Wittus TwinFire. That is the most radiant stove I have experienced. The heat blasting from the front when in secondary burn mode is impressive.
http://www.wittus.com/wipwoodtwinfire.htm

Walltherm requires a good, well insulated 6" chimney to draft properly. Suggested height is 22' (7mtrs).

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

There are and have been several stoves that use secondary combustion chambers like you describe.

Please provide specific examples. Because I've never seen a woodstove with a dome shaped chamber with secondary air inlet holes designed to create a tornado shaped circulation. As far as I can tell, it doesn't exist.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

In theory it works. But in practice everyone who has tried it so far has created a tempermental hard to maintain stove.

You are not making any sense. Because no one has tried what I proposed in a previous post. Can you provide a specific example?

I am not saying it could not work just that it has been multiple times before with poor results.

Again, I've never seen a woodstove with a domed top to the firebox incorporating secondary air inlets that create a tornado shaped secondary combustion which exits the center-top. Without specific examples, I have to be skeptical of your claims. With specific examples we might be able to identify design deficiencies. Obviously, a designer without above average talent is going to fail in one or more respects.

 

[begreen]

Rocket stoves work on the vortex principle. Dovre and Dutchwest used a turbulator to mix secondary gases in a vortex burn for more complete combustion. IIRC Burley introduced side fed secondary air in a vortex like config.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Rocket stoves work on the vortex principle. Dovre and Dutchwest used a turbulator to mix secondary gases in a vortex burn for more complete combustion. IIRC Burley introduced side fed secondary air in a vortex like config.

These are

Rocket stoves work on the vortex principle. Dovre and Dutchwest used a turbulator to mix secondary gases in a vortex burn for more complete combustion. IIRC Burley introduced side fed secondary air in a vortex like config.

Yes, aware of those. But I would like to see an example similar to what I described (if it even exists).

bholler?

 

[bholler]

These are


Yes, aware of those. But I would like to see an example similar to what I described (if it even exists).

bholler?

No not exactly like what you said. But many that work on vortexes. Many that have heavily insulated fireboxes and then heat exchangers. The dome to me might add a little to efficency but it will also add massivly to production costs which is probably why you havnt seen a production version of one. But i have seen multiple concepts incorporating domes in different configurations.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

But i have seen multiple concepts incorporating domes in different configurations.

What are you referring to above?

 

[bholler]

What are you referring to above?

Various concepts i have seen through the years at shows conventions workshops ect. Most were one off custom made units. When you are in and around the industrybfor a long time you see lots of stuff and much of it never goes anywhere

 

[blades]

in one of my older stoves of the tube design both primary air and secondary air supplies were controllable to a extent, still had that dang wide open window wash which perhaps negated some of the control ability. Prior to the EPA sticking there nose and feet into things there were several designs with domed or hex type upper portions as well as a few with rather massive heat exchangers in the exhaust stream. One out of a garage in MN incorporated a simple cleaning system for the exchange tubes as they were contained within the confines of the stove proper. Sadly the mandatory certification and associated costs there of caused a mass exodus of some very innovative items here stateside. So one has to look overseas for some different takes on the box as it were. Currently on local CL is a stove touted as a prototype, it is some what interesting - at least the advertising hype any way- something that never made it into full scale production according to the hype. name on it is AFS Ember Hearth, Milwaukee CL posting # 6245921913 ( I have no association with this) Perhaps I just wasn't aware of it before. The name Ember Hearth does ring a bell softly. Wasn't it the Earth stoves that used a round chamber? Seems the last models had 2nd burn or perhaps that is being added by a company that refurbishes them if they around yet also. There was a wood furnace that touted a domed upper area for 2nd burn a while back. Prehaps still around haven't looked around lately. Australian firm with a exhaust stream heat exchanger sans the magic box syndrome. Course those folks across the big pond are quite a way ahead of US manufactures mostly due to conventional fuel prices being considerably higher there than here.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Course those folks across the big pond are quite a way ahead of US manufactures mostly due to conventional fuel prices being considerably higher there than here.

Yes, EPA regs really put a fire under the belly of domestic manufacturers. A lot of really poor burning models were squeezed right out of the market. No great loss. Innovate or die. But nothing does it as fast as high heating prices!

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Various concepts i have seen through the years at shows conventions workshops ect. Most were one off custom made units.

Pics?

 

[bholler]

Pics?

I am sure i have some pics at home on stacks of old photos. But like i said most went nowhere and were pretty unimpressive. No reason for me to take pics. If you think you can make it work make a prototype and start testing. I am by no means saying it cant be done. Just that people have tried and failed. So far the only real proven way to burn low and slow is with a cat. But the new smart stove from quad may change that

 

[begreen]

So far the only real proven way to burn low and slow is with a cat. But the new smart stove from quad may change that

MF Fire's Catalyst smart stove?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I am sure i have some pics at home on stacks of old photos. But like i said most went nowhere and were pretty unimpressive. No reason for me to take pics. If you think you can make it work make a prototype and start testing. I am by no means saying it cant be done. Just that people have tried and failed. So far the only real proven way to burn low and slow is with a cat. But the new smart stove from quad may change that

For many years people tried to make heavier than air flight possible. Many said it was foolish to try. Nobody succeeded until two brothers took the time to understand the principles involved. Then it was easy.

To my eye, current stove designs look like all those aeroplanes before the age of flight. Poorly engineered, poorly thought out, all failures. People try and fail all the time.

 

[bholler]

MF Fire's Catalyst smart stove?

No the new quad with the smart controller

 

[bholler]

For many years people tried to make heavier than air flight possible. Many said it was foolish to try. Nobody succeeded until two brothers took the time to understand the principles involved. Then it was easy.

To my eye, current stove designs look like all those aeroplanes before the age of flight. Poorly engineered, poorly thought out, all failures. People try and fail all the time.

No i didnt say dont try i simply said you need to do more indepth research to find out what was done already. What has worked and what hasnt. And why they failed. Many of the early attempts were not well documented at all. You will have to search old industry show photos ect.

Honestly i dont see how you could possibly say every or even many of the stoves on the market currently ate failures. It somply isnt true they are sucesses without question yes they can be improved upon without question. But that does not make them failures.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Honestly i dont see how you could possibly say every or even many of the stoves on the market currently ate failures. It somply isnt true they are sucesses without question yes they can be improved upon without question. But that does not make them failures.

True, "failure" is a strong word, probably too strong. I don't think I would have spent nearly $4000 a few weeks ago if they were all "failures".

But lots of room for improvement, for sure.

 

[lsucet]

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/About-Us/Press-Room/Press-Releases/Quadra-Fire-Launches-Hearth-Industrys-First-Wood-Stove-With-Programmable-Wall-Thermostat.aspx)

That is the one you are talking about, bholler

 

[Squirrely]

It would have a light weight refractory ceramic domed central combustion chamber designed to reflect heat to the center of the firebox floor.

What about a magnetic field to hold the hot gasses in suspension in the center of the combustion chamber. Oh wait... that's nuclear fusion.

Nevermind.

(sorry, couldn't resist

)

Greg

 

[lsucet]

That is the only one I can find in the website. Is that new one listed in the site or not yet?

 

[Squirrely]

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/About-Us/Press-Room/Press-Releases/Quadra-Fire-Launches-Hearth-Industrys-First-Wood-Stove-With-Programmable-Wall-Thermostat.aspx)

The smartest wood stove ever
The Quadra-Fire Adventure Series stoves are built for performance and easy operation. The key to the advanced system is Quadra-Fire’s exclusive Smart Burn Technology (SBT). SBT is a patented technology that automatically controls the heat output of your stove.

• Programmable wall thermostat – Input up to four different temperature schedules to operate during weekdays and weekends
• SBT Activation button – Eliminates all manual air controls and tells you when to add more wood
• Control board – The “brains” of the stove, this advanced control board gathers input and information, and automatically tells the stove what to do, and when to do it
• Two thermocouples – Located inside the firebox, they provide combustion temperature readings automatically

“Gone are the days when homeowners are constantly required to tend to their stove to achieve a desired temperature,”

Four reasons not to buy a Quadrafire.

I actually enjoy tending a fire, and don't need to be told when to add wood.
And I'd never own any appliance with the word "Smart" in it. Smart is the new Stupid.


Greg

 

[begreen]

There are other stoves by Nestor Martin for example that use automation technology, actually a few years before it showed up in the US. Hwam has their automated 3630 IHS stove and so does Rika with their Rikatronic. The US made MFire Catalyst has automated fire control too, but they added a cat to the final product, so not a non-cat.

 

[lsucet]

Yeah I saw that but bholler is talking about a new one and that one was released in 2015. I will like to know more about it.

I will like to see what manufacturers are going to do for better efficiency. I think that we are at the end of the road with existing models/technologies.

If I understand correctly, efficiency is based on how much btu stays in the house and not up the chimney. Maybe is more complicated than that, but we all get the idea. Existing systems need temperature to draft and we already have some stoves in the market that can run real low temperature in the flue.

I don't know how much they can go and make more efficient without going into of more sophisticated system and force induction or something. I just saying.

 

[bholler]

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/About-Us/Press-Room/Press-Releases/Quadra-Fire-Launches-Hearth-Industrys-First-Wood-Stove-With-Programmable-Wall-Thermostat.aspx)

That is the one you are talking about, bholler

Yes it is to early to tell how it will do long term though