I hat this @#$% EKO

[Sawyer]

BTU"S are based on GPM x spilt . Example - 6 GPM with a 25F spilt = 75MBH. The actual temp has no bearing on BTU's But for water heat a higher start temp with wider Delta-t is the most usable water temps, obliviously. Don't have the 26-99 curve in front of me, it might be a push to get 6 GPM out of that pump @ 300 ft Pex

Uponor (300'/1/2" Wirsbo hePex@ .75gpm=5.7' Head loss @1.5gpm= 22.36' head) Looks like about 13gpm at 22.3 feet of head on that 26-99.

 

[deerefanatic]

OK,

Pex from the boiler shed (where the pump is) to the shop is approx 150' one-way of 1" O2 Barrier Pex.. Then the floor consists of 4 runs in parallel, 250' each, 3/4" Pex-al-pex...

Insulating the perimeter to below the frost line would mean going down between 7 to 10 feet! :bug:

The zone valve setup works pretty good as it stays open about 95% of the time.. The way I've got that gate valve throttled it will maintain a constant 145F water when the boiler is at 180 ish....

I don't think this (the shop) is helping me any, but the house is a pretty major load too, and I'm all out of money for working on any of this stuff as it stands.. Even after the so-called "weatherization" people were done, there are drafts in this place that will make a polar bear shiver...

I'm going to try and call the PO's today and see if they'll tell me how they did the shop.

 

[deerefanatic]

OK, just got off the phone.... I talked to the PO's son. He told me there is no insulation at all under the slab... Plastic, but no insulation. And yes, the water table is fairly hi. We have very heavy clay soil around here, and our basement is constantly wet... So I think you guys nailed this on the head....

Ain't that cool.

 

[sdrobertson]

Sorry to hear that Matt. Not allot of cheap options I can think of except putting in a air handler. You should be able to find a used squirrel cage fan and use a large radiator (bus or semi truck) and start moving heat to get you through the winter. I know the floor will be cold, but you'll know if the boiler will keep up then even with less than perfect wood.

 

[deerefanatic]

A friend of mine has 5 or 6 large cast iron radiators that he's going to put in his house... He said I can use them this winter as he's not going to get to getting them put in this winter... So that may work for this winter until I see what's going on....

For that matter, I have a good sized squirrel cage.. and a large copper radiator out of an old chevy truck.. Guess I'll get to work rigging that up.

 

[slowzuki]

That copper rad should work well, sometimes on craiglist etc you can find old air handlers too. I got a hx from a big chiller that goes in a duct for free from someone putting in a heat pump.

 

[Sawyer]

Not to steal your thread Matt, but can an air conditioner coil be used for heating? Seems like it is still just a coil.

 

[salecker]

Hi
Depending on the insulation job done on the underground lines,they may be part of the problem.Especally if you have moist soil.If you insulate around the shop slab,you can angle the foamboard away from the slab it will deflect the frost away from the slab,insted of going straight down the edge.
Good Luck
Thomas

 

[barnartist]

Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.

 

[slowzuki]

Its just a heat exchanger. The one I have couldn't handle the full output required for a shop but certainly could handle a room or two.

Not to steal your thread Matt, but can an air conditioner coil be used for heating? Seems like it is still just a coil.

 

[mr.fixit]

Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.

Yeah-the headline might read,"Wisconsin Man Heating The Ground With Wood Boiler Possible Cause Of Polar Ice Melting!"

 

[Huskurdu]

Based on what has been said on tis thread, your wood consumption would be about 1/2 if the wood was dry (20% MC).

Is this really a proven fact? That seems quite a drastic statement. Just wondering as I'm using more than I'd like and will definitely buy a moisture meter is that is the case. Sorry about the hi-jack.

 

[Sawyer]

Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.

Yeah-the headline might read,"Wisconsin Man Heating The Ground With Wood Boiler Possible Cause Of Polar Ice Melting!"

Got a neighbor with bubble wrap insulation on his underground that could share this title.

 

[deerefanatic]

Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.

Yeah-the headline might read,"Wisconsin Man Heating The Ground With Wood Boiler Possible Cause Of Polar Ice Melting!"

I never laughed so hard! haha.. Does put things in a little more positive light. I would go and change the title, but actually, it may be good to leave it so other disheartened folks will read it and maybe see the errors of their ways, like I'm beginning to maybe see.

Oh, the underground lines aren't the problem. They have 5" of corbond all the way around them... They don't even loose 1 degree down there. And they're 5 foot down

We'll see how this truck radiator pans out, then go from there with the decision making.

 

[bigburner]

still would like to know the numbers on the shop, heat load verse BTUs being used.

 

[Sawyer]

Oh, the underground lines aren't the problem. They have 5" of corbond all the way around them... They don't even loose 1 degree down there. And they're 5 foot down

I knew that wasn't your problem Matt, remember, you are the one that educated me before I buried my lines and I also do not loose a degree in 200'. I almost let my neighbor convince me to use the bubble, thankfully you and some others on the forum knew better!

 

[Piker]

Despite the fact that there is a tremendous load on the boiler because of the uninsulated slab... there is still something awry with the fact that the boiler had 1/4" of crud in the heat exchanger. A huge load, means nothing but hard firing... hard firing does not produce crud in the heat exchanger. Crud in the heat exchanger makes for terrible heat transfer into the water, and is caused by poor combustion which is caused by either wrong settings or terrible wood. Am I missing something? Deerfanatic... you said yourself that the boiler was keeping up much better when you went to a new pallet of wood... you just can't ignore that. Am I missing something?

Not saying that the wood quality was the only issue here... for sure an uninsulated slab will use more wood than an insulated one. Sounds like several things working against you. With that... I digress.
good luck


cheers

 

[Piker]

Based on what has been said on tis thread, your wood consumption would be about 1/2 if the wood was dry (20% MC).

Is this really a proven fact? That seems quite a drastic statement. Just wondering as I'm using more than I'd like and will definitely buy a moisture meter is that is the case. Sorry about the hi-jack.

Going from what deerfanatic stated his mc content was (28%)... using half the wood by going to 20% is not accurate. I had mentioned earlier that he could probably cut his wood usage in half by burning high quality wood and doing it in a clean boiler with the right setup. This was a notion just taken from what I have seen out there first hand. My gut instinct was that while some of the wood was at 28%, most of it was probably more. I've seen boilers coated with terrible amounts of creosote before... almost always caused by green wood. Cold combustion air into a dirty boiler coupled with green wood is a recipe for massive wood usage.

cheers

 

[deerefanatic]

Yes, you are probably right piker... I opened up my primaries too... I had closed them down in an effort to reduce my high stack temperatures.. But decided a clean burn with hi stack temps is better than dirty burn and having to scrub those hx pipes all the time...

I know this thing's throwing creosote.... I had a chimney fire in my stove pipe when I had the loading door open about a month ago...

The radiant slab is now disconnected. I've got that old truck radiator hooked up and running... I'm just running the pump and fan 24/7... Basically, the floor did this same thing. Right now, my temp drop is about 7 or 8 degrees vs the 30+ degrees the floor was pulling... We'll see how hot the shop is in the morning...

 

[Piker]

Yes, you are probably right piker... I opened up my primaries too... I had closed them down in an effort to reduce my high stack temperatures.. But decided a clean burn with hi stack temps is better than dirty burn and having to scrub those hx pipes all the time...

I know this thing's throwing creosote.... I had a chimney fire in my stove pipe when I had the loading door open about a month ago...

The radiant slab is now disconnected. I've got that old truck radiator hooked up and running... I'm just running the pump and fan 24/7... Basically, the floor did this same thing. Right now, my temp drop is about 7 or 8 degrees vs the 30+ degrees the floor was pulling... We'll see how hot the shop is in the morning...

I don't know for sure, but I think what you thought were high stack temps weren't really all that high for the unit. I think I recall seeing some of no fossil's numbers being in the 500's, and the larger econoburn boilers (200's) that i have installed have stack temps well over 600° even with a clean heat exchanger. I think your best bet is to shine that heat exchanger up spotless, and tune the air on the boiler to maximize the stack temps. Burn hot, burn fast, burn clean. With storage, there should be ZERO creosote in the stack. None whatsoever.

The most important thing here is to be able to look back and say that the cost of the system was justified, and of course to be able to live with the system from an operational and fuel usage perspective. Just going by what I have read here, you haven't yet tapped into all that your system can offer. I don't think it will take more money to make it work better, though that always helps... but it may take some thoughtful planning on the seasoned firewood issue, and of course a little trial, a little error (sometimes alot of error) and patience.

good luck

cheers

 

[heaterman]

OK, just got off the phone.... I talked to the PO's son. He told me there is no insulation at all under the slab... Plastic, but no insulation. And yes, the water table is fairly hi. We have very heavy clay soil around here, and our basement is constantly wet... So I think you guys nailed this on the head....

Ain't that cool.

No need to discuss that any further. Ditch the infloor and find some rads. I'm willing to bet once that is accomplished you thing you have a different boiler. Why anyone would choose to not insulate a slab is beyond my comprehension.

 

[free75degrees]

I might be thinking about this wrong, but doesn't the dirt under the slab have an R value, just not as good as real insulation? Say the dirt has R value of .25 per inch and good insulation has r value of 3 per inch. So the insulation is 12 times better. You'd need 12 times as much dirt to equal the good insulation. Well there is almost an infinite amount of dirt. Once a good thick amount of dirt under the slab gets warm it should start to perform like a much thinner amount of insulation. Is this wrong?

 

[heaterman]

I might be thinking about this wrong, but doesn't the dirt under the slab have an R value, just not as good as real insulation? Say the dirt has R value of .25 per inch and good insulation has r value of 3 per inch. So the insulation is 12 times better. You'd need 12 times as much dirt to equal the good insulation. Well there is almost an infinite amount of dirt. Once a good thick amount of dirt under the slab gets warm it should start to perform like a much thinner amount of insulation. Is this wrong?

Yes.

Dirt is not insulation. It's more like a heat sink. Your assumption is partially true if one was talking about pure sand................but wet clay like Matt is dealing with? Nada, uh uh, no way Jose.

 

[MaineMike100]

Can't find the reference right now but somewhere I remember reading that wet sandy soil has an R value of 1 per foot, so it would take 12 feet of soil under the slab to get the desired R12 insulation. Just think about heating that huge block of earth, the size of the shop X 12 feet deep, and arguably 12 feet laterally from each wall under the surrounding area. Talk about snow melt! I think the air handlers or cast iron radiators is the way to go to get you through the rest of this winter, then re-evaluate the slab repair options. My .02

 

[Fred61]

Can't find the reference right now but somewhere I remember reading that wet sandy soil has an R value of 1 per foot, so it would take 12 feet of soil under the slab to get the desired R12 insulation. Just think about heating that huge block of earth, the size of the shop X 12 feet deep, and arguably 12 feet laterally from each wall under the surrounding area. Talk about snow melt! I think the air handlers or cast iron radiators is the way to go to get you through the rest of this winter, then re-evaluate the slab repair options. My .02

You could be close to being right if you leave out the wet part. I've read alot of "facts" before but I wrote them down first.