how can I protect a fuel line from the cold?

[snowleopard]

Oh gosh! That worked! Except that is not a picture of my sunroom. Those are the steps on the east side of the house. Trying again here:

East end of sunroom where Toyo would go, and hearth room at the west end of sunroom.

Thought about putting unit in hearthroom because it's centrally located, but that just seemed wrong. I was concerned about putting it in the sunroom because of the way the walls come down to meet the door frames, but the sunroom is narrow and the Toyo has a fan on it, so if I locate it so it will blow into the kitchen from the sunroom, and through the kitchen, to the base of the stairs, I think it will work just fine.

I hope.

 

[snowleopard]

One more picture. Or more. Through the pass-through window, you can see the kitchen through which the heat should, in theory, move. The east end of the sunroom and the kitchen were the least-warm places in the house last year. There is an island in the center of the kitchen, so hoping the heat will circuit around it some. Figured out last week that the plumbing does not run along the base of the east wall to the sink, but rather comes through the ceiling joists and down the wall, thus less likely to freeze up. This is a Good Thing.


And this is a picture of the garage and wall from the kitchen.

 

[Dune]

Ok, you "could" heat the tank/fuel lines "enough" to keep it from gelling up. I know water will keep from freezing (to a point) if you keep it moving. I don't think fuel is the same because its made up of several different molecules that all have their own boiling/freezing points or whatever paraffin does. When you say heat the tank I've just got a picture in my head of an electric blanket draped over the top of a 1/2 full oil tank somewhere in the middle of a wind-swept field. The expense of the pump, the second fuel line and the additional pump (I don't think the pumps on space heaters are going to pull the same vacuum as an oil burner) not to mention the cost of btus to heat the oil is probably not the best solution for this particular installation. But you could do it. I believe the OP is trying to do this as economical as possible.

Is it the aesthetics of putting the fuel filter in sun room that would be the problem or the potential smell? Properly installed there will be no odor save once a year when you change it. You could also box it in, or just make a planter (probably need a plastic plant so close to the heater!) and hide it.


It would be tricky trying to pull through from one tank into another. You'd need a tank that could hold a vacuum. Maybe its common but I think you'd end up in a situation with two pumps and trying to control supply/return lines in between the reserve/primary tanks. Starting to get expensive. Its a thought to have a reserve tank in the garage that you could tee to your primary fuel line. That way it would be a matter of a few valves and priming the lines if you ever woke up to a cold house.

"MOM! There's a moose fighting with the snake again!"

It would just be cheaper to put a tank next to the house than properly insulating the lines and the tank, and rigging the return line.

 

[JustWood]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks, Lee, for the link. I looked around on the web for that product after you posted about it, but couldn't find it.

I wonder if there's any problem with running that in the Toyo. I know that they're a little persnickity.

 

[btuser]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

 

[JustWood]

In the mid 90's I was toasting injector pumps every 12-18 months which prompted me to start using this product. I've not rebuilt one since I started regular use.
It pays for itself in better mileage.
If I heated with oil and had a tank I'd be inclined to use the cheaper $7/bottle cleaner/antigel and maybe slightly over treat with it early on in the heating season. That 911 and artic is pretty expensive. I've found it at my local Wally World. Look there.

 

[snowleopard]

So what do you think overtreating it would look like? I have a 500 gallon tank and a 300 gallon tank, set up with stopcocks to draw off both or isolate single tanks. If I move the tank, it will be the smaller one. Anyway--how much would you use?

 

[JustWood]

1- 32oz bottle treats 100 gallons. If you think you may have some water I'd add 48 oz per 100 gal. Directions say it doesn't hurt to overtreat.If you get the Arctic Express there is no need to over treat. There is another similar product made by Stanadyne that I've looked into but have never tried. Power Service works for me and if it ain't broke don't fix it !

 

[semipro]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

If you compare the chemical ingredients and physical properties listed on respective MSDSs this stuff seems to have a lot in common with gasoline.

I wonder if diesel drivers used to add a little gasoline to their fuel for winter operation and this company decided to capitalize on it.

Edit: I got curious and did a short search of the web and found it has been a common practice to add gasoline to diesel for winter operation. Here's a quote from one site:

"In the COLD,COLD country, adding some gas to the diesel was a common practice to prevent gelling and aid cold weather starting. Adding kerosene or #1 diesel is the better thing to do under those conditions."

 

[JustWood]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

If you compare the chemical ingredients and physical properties listed on respective MSDSs this stuff seems to have a lot in common with gasoline.

I wonder if diesel drivers used to add a little gasoline to their fuel for winter operation and this company decided to capitalize on it.

Edit: I got curious and did a short search of the web and found it has been a common practice to add gasoline to diesel for winter operation. Here's a quote from one site:

"In the COLD,COLD country, adding some gas to the diesel was a common practice to prevent gelling and aid cold weather starting. Adding kerosene or #1 diesel is the better thing to do under those conditions."

Been in the trucking/logging biz for 24 years and never heard of anyone doing this.
Googled it and first thing I came up with is this.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/mixing_gasoline_and_diesel.htm
Gas in diesel is a major NOT!

 

[btuser]

The fuel is seasonally blended before it gets to us (at least here in NE) and I've never bothered putting stuff in my tank. My truck sits unplugged for a week in the coldest weather and has never not started for me. I honestly don't even cycle the plugs 1/2 the time and it still starts up.

 

[semipro]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

If you compare the chemical ingredients and physical properties listed on respective MSDSs this stuff seems to have a lot in common with gasoline.

I wonder if diesel drivers used to add a little gasoline to their fuel for winter operation and this company decided to capitalize on it.

Edit: I got curious and did a short search of the web and found it has been a common practice to add gasoline to diesel for winter operation. Here's a quote from one site:

"In the COLD,COLD country, adding some gas to the diesel was a common practice to prevent gelling and aid cold weather starting. Adding kerosene or #1 diesel is the better thing to do under those conditions."

Been in the trucking/logging biz for 24 years and never heard of anyone doing this.
Googled it and first thing I came up with is this.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/mixing_gasoline_and_diesel.htm
Gas in diesel is a major NOT!

You realize I'm not recommending adding gasoline just but pointing out that the Power Service products appear to be very similar to it?

 

[JustWood]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

If you compare the chemical ingredients and physical properties listed on respective MSDSs this stuff seems to have a lot in common with gasoline.

I wonder if diesel drivers used to add a little gasoline to their fuel for winter operation and this company decided to capitalize on it.

Edit: I got curious and did a short search of the web and found it has been a common practice to add gasoline to diesel for winter operation. Here's a quote from one site:

"In the COLD,COLD country, adding some gas to the diesel was a common practice to prevent gelling and aid cold weather starting. Adding kerosene or #1 diesel is the better thing to do under those conditions."

Been in the trucking/logging biz for 24 years and never heard of anyone doing this.
Googled it and first thing I came up with is this.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/mixing_gasoline_and_diesel.htm
Gas in diesel is a major NOT!

You realize I'm not recommending adding gasoline just but pointing out that the Power Service products appear to be very similar to it?

Petroleum distillates and aromatic hydrocarbons as ingredients tells you it's similar to gasoline ?????????????????

 

[semipro]

Cheaper yet to run some of this stuff.

I've run this stuff in the winter for 12+ years without one single problem. Also run the cleaner in warmer months just for preventative maintainance in diesel engines.
http://www.powerservice.com/aedf/
http://www.powerservice.com/d911/

I've heard the rumors of this stuff and am inclined to believe. Just have to remember to use it.

If you compare the chemical ingredients and physical properties listed on respective MSDSs this stuff seems to have a lot in common with gasoline.

I wonder if diesel drivers used to add a little gasoline to their fuel for winter operation and this company decided to capitalize on it.

Edit: I got curious and did a short search of the web and found it has been a common practice to add gasoline to diesel for winter operation. Here's a quote from one site:

"In the COLD,COLD country, adding some gas to the diesel was a common practice to prevent gelling and aid cold weather starting. Adding kerosene or #1 diesel is the better thing to do under those conditions."

Been in the trucking/logging biz for 24 years and never heard of anyone doing this.
Googled it and first thing I came up with is this.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/mixing_gasoline_and_diesel.htm
Gas in diesel is a major NOT!

You realize I'm not recommending adding gasoline just but pointing out that the Power Service products appear to be very similar to it?

Petroleum distillates and aromatic hydrocarbons as ingredients tells you it's similar to gasoline ?????????????????

Look at the physical properties and ingredients such as ethyl-benzene, naphthalene etc.

 

[Wallyworld]

In the 80s VW used to recommend gas as a anti gel for their diesels. I think a gallon per tank full.

 

[btuser]

Injectors in modern engines are not the same animal. Its common for injectors today to be pushing 18,000psi+. A nice little trick from long ago was to fill your new fuel filter with transmission fluid, then run the engine clean. No longer recommended.

 

[Hogwildz]

Thanks, fellas.

Three-eigths copper tubing is standard.

I've considered a smaller tank by the house. If I went new, it would be about $500 for a 100 gallon tank and stand. I could also put a 55 gallon drum next to the house and run that--haven't ruled either of those out, but since I'm set on a hillside and the soil is frozen, that's not the easiest solution to implement. It might be that a nearby tank will be less expensive than running the line.

The coldest I would expect to see is around -40F, in the low swings. We had a prolonged cold snap last winter where temps stayed in -20 to -30 range at my house for several weeks. If I run it next to the wall I'm thinking of, and want to keep it on an angle, it's going to be exposed to the cold rather than sheltered by the snow.

Had no idea that hydraulic hose was that expensive--that rules this out. It's $26.54 for a 20' roll of tubing--probably $100 for tubing, connectors, and insulation if I go that route. I may throw some heat tape in there as a just-in-case. That's still the least expensive and easiest solution.

Thanks, Hog and Lee, will check this out. That would be the easiest--avoiding the gelling problem in the first place.

I know our heating oil supplier actually mixes kero in the oil during the winter to also combat gelling.
If you decide to get another tank. You can find them on Craig's list for pretty cheap.
I have never had a problem with gelling with the additive mixed in. But I am not getting -40 below temps either.

 

[firefighterjake]

It probably will not help with your own situation, but here in Maine we sometimes get a week to two weeks when the temps dip pretty low . . . maybe not -40, but well below the donut. I had some issues with my oil gelling up which I was able to fix without resorting to using the more expensive blend or going with K-1 . . . although I think if I routinely had -40 degree temps or outside tanks I would run the better blend.

In my own case I had an indoor tank in an unheated and uninsulated garage. I ended up building a room around the tank and insulated it. I also have a 100-watt lightbulb that helps warm things up . . . it's acutally kind of surprising how much a little lightbulb in a small area can heat a place up when the place is insulated. Finally, I wrapped insulation around my oil line and filter . . . it seems as though some heat from the room with the boiler works its way down the line.

In the past few years I haven't had any problems since going this route . . . not sure if any of this would help you . . . but it's what worked for me.