Just to clarify, this is the stove pipe between the furnace and the chimney? If so, and it is the cheap old single wall stuff, going to double wall can help a lot too (it keeps the internal temps up better)
Hot air wood furnaces that meet the new EPA regs...
- Thread starter brenndatomu
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil. -
Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
lampmfg
Burning Hunk
I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming 2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though. That is if there still is an EPA
I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming 2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though. That is if there still is an EPA
Ooh, that sounds like a pro Trump. Not saying that is good or bad, just to keep politics out of the thread.
sloeffle
Minister of Fire
IMHO, we ( the public ) should be happy that the EPA is forcing manufacturers to build cleaner burning wood appliances.I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming 2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though. That is if there still is an EPA
Why should I be forced to breath dirtier air when we have the technology at a reasonable price to manufacture appliances that are more efficient and release less CO, CO2, NO, NO2 and SO2 ?
lampmfg
Burning Hunk
Believe me, if there is one company that wants the EPA around it's us. Otherwise, why would we have even gone through this testing process, we will be terribly upset if they don't enforce or change the regulations at all. However, there will be a lot of happy companies like most that currently claim to burn clean right now. If they deregulate we probably will quit manufacturing them all together since most people will choose the cheaper so-called clean burning option.
The EPA just updated their list of warm air furnaces and there are only 10 units that are certified. We did an analysis of them,
http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-wood-and-pellet-furnaces-must-be.html
Most are pretty basic, with average efficiency less than 60%, and one US Stove model only gets 33% efficiency. Not sure this class of heater will really survive the 2020 EPA standards, except for ones that use pellets. If the Europeans made more furnaces, using electronic controls like oxygen sensors, cord wood units may be able to pass. But in my opinion, this class of heater is still in the backwaters from technology point of view.
http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-wood-and-pellet-furnaces-must-be.html
Most are pretty basic, with average efficiency less than 60%, and one US Stove model only gets 33% efficiency. Not sure this class of heater will really survive the 2020 EPA standards, except for ones that use pellets. If the Europeans made more furnaces, using electronic controls like oxygen sensors, cord wood units may be able to pass. But in my opinion, this class of heater is still in the backwaters from technology point of view.
maple1
Minister of Fire
lampmfg
Burning Hunk
John,
Since the May list was published, the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 manufactured by Lamppa Manufacturing in Tower, Minnesota has been certified by the EPA. The VF100 is a gasification warm-air furnace and it tested at 0.093 pounds/mmBTU. Thus, it is 10 times cleaner than the current standard and 40% cleaner than the 2020 and beyond standard. The VF100 is a cord-wood furnace.
Regards,
DoubleB
Minister of Fire
The list, and some results, are at this link: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-04/usepa-certified-forced-air-furnace-list.xlsx
It was buried a few pages deep in Mr. Ackerly's post.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I saw that later, but didn't realize Mr. Ackerly was with EPA or in on that analyzing.
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
He doesn't appear to be.
(broken link removed to http://www.forgreenheat.org/about/board.html)
Some people do...just not me...at least not at this point. Firewood for me is "free" ...pellets not so much. Now if I ever get to the point that I can't handle firewood...maybe I'll revisit the issue.
Where is the PSG Caddy line on that list? I thought from their advertising they qualified under the latest EPA standards.
YES! In my shop I really could use a more automated wood burner and the pellet furnaces are loved by some folks. Especially on that "other" wood burning site. The brand I would love to have is a Fahrenheit
(broken link removed to http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html)
It also burns corn and other fuels. 3000-4000$ which is about the same as a quality pellet stove but much more capable and efficient.
I see Englander has updated the 28-3500 furnace to the new EPA certified 28-4000. IIRC, it is basically a NC30 with some mods to be a furnace.
(broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/englander-3000-sq-ft-add-on-wood-furnace)
(broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/englander-3000-sq-ft-add-on-wood-furnace)
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
I don't quite understand why these manufacturers are spending the resources to just get phase I certified? You'd think they'd want to go for the 2020 phase II right away. Phase II is only a few years removed and they will have to do a complete redesign again if they want to continue to sell. Phase I certification is just a small step compared to what they will need to do to become phase II compliant. Just doesn't make much sense to me. I understand they are probably just trying to buy time, but still.
Partly you are correct the other side is market share- warm air wood furnaces and outdoor boilers are not the primary market for wood burning appliances. The parlor stove is the bulk of the market.
Kuma is in a class by itself a they do not seem to market to the parlor stove types. There use to be a Wisconsin based wood furnace company that had a nice design ( true gasification type) some 10 years back, they did not make any stoves. didn't do much advertising either located mid- northern 1/2 of state. Wish I could remember the name or even what home base was.
Kuma is in a class by itself a they do not seem to market to the parlor stove types. There use to be a Wisconsin based wood furnace company that had a nice design ( true gasification type) some 10 years back, they did not make any stoves. didn't do much advertising either located mid- northern 1/2 of state. Wish I could remember the name or even what home base was.
JRHAWK9
Minister of Fire
So, do you think the warm air furnace companies who can't make them phase II compliant will just give up on warm air furnaces then?
depends on how much R&D $ they are willing to invest. Wood stove isn't much different than furnace on the warm air side of things just adding distribution system to it. Boilers more complex. Its just stateside they are behind the curve in comparison to European units because they didn't have the emission standards to meet. And then there is the price point, I can install a NG furnace with AC for under 2gs - Ain't gonna do that with a wood unit currently. Volume of the market.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
In addition to R&D costs, the next biggest concern is compliance. The 2015 NSPS, which captured the wood and pellet furnaces, both small and large, resulted in complex network of compliance matters.
We exited this market segment for this very reason. If and that is a big "if", EPA were to revisit the standards and compliance matters to reduce financial burden to small manufacturers, we may be interested in the market segment.
We exited this market segment for this very reason. If and that is a big "if", EPA were to revisit the standards and compliance matters to reduce financial burden to small manufacturers, we may be interested in the market segment.
maple1
Minister of Fire
When you say a big concern is 'compliance' - do you mean the cost of getting compliance certifications?
As opposed to the cost of actually making a unit that complies with the regs, operation/emission wise?
(I.e., the 'red tape' cost vs. physical 'doing it' cost. Doing it vs. proving it. So to speak...)
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Red Tape, heck yes! Read the NSPS, all subsections relating to QQQQ. That is what is meant by Compliance.
Similar threads
