Heat Storage....Finally...!!!

[jpelizza]

ok looks like tank is coming Friday i set up delivery time.

- I'm going to get the aqua stat to turn on/off circulator to and from primary loop to tank.
- going to get grufundos 15-58 3 speed circulator
- will use 1 1/4" pex to and from primary loop to tank
- will put ball valve shut off from primary loop to circulator (circulator will be on pex line from primary loop feeding heat to tank), and one ball valve shut off from tank supply to primary loop.
- on farmtek.com i can get a few wired mini digital meter panel for tank temps. http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplie...1&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=910879
- i might just put baby monitor with video looking at tank temps in basement and then i can check tank temps easily from first floor looking at monitor.
-will put 1inch foam and or the plastic from dry core under tank. my basement is finished floor with click in lay laminent/engineer material
-only other thing i'll need is proper flange for circulator, and pex tool to handle 1 1/4", hopefully i can rent one...

hows this sound?

 

[NateB]

It sounds like you may always be circulating water to your tank until the temp falls below 90 deg. If your aquastat see 90 deg it will keep pumping till it gets below 90. If you run your boiler it will start the aquastat, and heat the tank up to 170, and after the boiler stops the aquastat will continue to pump, but the heat will be coming from the tank.

 

[jpelizza]

It sounds like you may always be circulating water to your tank until the temp falls below 90 deg. If your aquastat see 90 deg it will keep pumping till it gets below 90. If you run your boiler it will start the aquastat, and heat the tank up to 170, and after the boiler stops the aquastat will continue to pump, but the heat will be coming from the tank.

That is correct in how I see it as well!, just got tank delivered few minutes ago, hope I can get it up and running soon!

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[peakbagger]

The box goes together quickly. Moving the liner into place is not as fast. It requires patience and ideally get it warm.

 

[jpelizza]

The box goes together quickly. Moving the liner into place is not as fast. It requires patience and ideally get it warm.

Ok, good to know [emoji106]


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[NateB]

Put your sensor probes in as you assemble it. Also the insides of the tanks made me very itchy, like fiberglass insulation, so don't rub against them to much.

 

[jpelizza]

Put your sensor probes in as you assemble it. Also the insides of the tanks made me very itchy, like fiberglass insulation, so don't rub against them to much.

All info appreciated thanks!


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[jpelizza]

This is where tank will be going in basement, getting it cleared out today and will start to assemble tank.

As you can see this spot was mostly storage to summer toys that were in garage but now half of room will be my tank that will store my “ATU’s”....”American Thermal Units”...[emoji2]

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[Marshy]

You really want that tank liner to be 70F so it's not brittle. Yes the black insulation board does have a fiberglass like layer on it so gloves and log sleeves is a good idea as mentioned.

You might want to talk with @Chris Hoskin at Tarm about getting a BLT controller. They offer them as a stand alone controller to integrate a primary and secondary heating system.

My existing zone control on the left for my oil boiler (secondary), the BLT controller on the right.

These are the low voltage terminals for the BLT (below). You can see the tank aquastat works with the BLT to determine what system should be providing heat to the zones.

 

[jpelizza]

You really want that tank liner to be 70F so it's not brittle. Yes the black insulation board does have a fiberglass like layer on it so gloves and log sleeves is a good idea as mentioned.

You might want to talk with @Chris Hoskin at Tarm about getting a BLT controller. They offer them as a stand alone controller to integrate a primary and secondary heating system.

My existing zone control on the left for my oil boiler (secondary), the BLT controller on the right.
View attachment 224148

View attachment 224149

These are the low voltage terminals for the BLT (below). You can see the tank aquastat works with the BLT to determine what system should be providing heat to the zones.
View attachment 224150

Thanks for info!, I’ll look into that but I’m not sure I’m smart enough to understand all of that, maybe after I look at it a few times...


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[jpelizza]

Room cleaned out, carrying pieces down now...

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[NateB]

Something I thought of. If your aquastat turns on your circ at 90F. You are going to have issues with low return temp to your boiler for a long period of time until your tank get up to 140F. Returning 90 F water to your boiler will make a mess of your boiler, by keeping the fire to cool and filling your HX with creosote. Along with many other issues relating to thermal shock and corrosion.

Do you have return protection on your boiler?

 

[jpelizza]

Something I thought of. If your aquastat turns on your circ at 90F. You are going to have issues with low return temp to your boiler for a long period of time until your tank get up to 140F. Returning 90 F water to your boiler will make a mess of your boiler, by keeping the fire to cool and filling your HX with creosote. Along with many other issues relating to thermal shock and corrosion.

Do you have return protection on your boiler?

I do not have return protection...
I would think most times I’ll be firing up another burn well before it’s drawn down to 90 degrees...
Also if that is the case and my boiler gets to say 170 won’t it return say 120-130ish after going through heat exchanger??, wouldn’t think it be all the way back down to 90 returning to boiler...but idk on that so....

Good point for sure! Thx...


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[Bad LP]

You need boiler protection.

 

[maple1]

I do not have return protection...
I would think most times I’ll be firing up another burn well before it’s drawn down to 90 degrees...
Also if that is the case and my boiler gets to say 170 won’t it return say 120-130ish after going through heat exchanger??, wouldn’t think it be all the way back down to 90 returning to boiler...but idk on that so....

Good point for sure! Thx...


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140 is the magic number. Return temps below that for any periods of time will likely cause creosote condensation. Especially important when heating storage - usually lots of cool water to get back up to temp.

 

[BoiledOver]

Danfoss has you covered for boiler protection with the ESBE series thermic valve, SEE HERE. And since the element is sold separately, SEE HERE. Or if you prefer, elements with differing opening temps can be had.

 

[peakbagger]

I have the "poor mans" return protection on my old Burnham. I have a temperature switch stuck in the water jacket located at mid level on the boiler. It controls the circulator pump on the boiler so that it wont turn on until the temp goes over 140F. Its also serves at the end of night when the storage is up to temp and the boiler is out of wood to eventually turn off the pump once the boiler jacket drops under 140. Otherwise it just runs as long as the boiler is turned on.

 

[salecker]

Another way to provide boiler protection is with a near boiler pump.
Econoburn recommends this on their boilers.
You need a aquastat and another pump.The pump circulates water in the boiler till you get to your high set temp on the the aquastat, then the pump to storage takes over till your boiler drops to your low set temp.Then it repeats.
I use this setup as my boiler is in another building without any makeup water.

 

[BoiledOver]

There are several ways to skin the boiler protection cat for sure. Two compelling features to using a thermic valve are; no electronics needed and it is self governing. Start the storage circ at the beginning of the fire and let it do its thing. The valve will circulate through the boiler only until the entire unit is up to temp and then will slowly open as output rises. At 18F above the elements designated temp the valve will fully open. Meaning, if you have a 140F element, when the return from storage hits 158F it will be fully open to and from storage. In summary, it cracks open a bit when the entire boiler is up to 140F and will gradually open further until the return reaches 158F and then will be fully open to and from storage.

As a fourth option. There is also a loading unit which accomplishes the same thing. See one (broken link removed to https://store.tarmusa.com/collections/loading-units-and-accessories/products/lk-810-loading-unit)

 

[NateB]

I used the Danfoss unit that BoiledOver linked to, and I would recommend you put one in. I do have a question for everyone, because I am not sure what will happen. If his tank does get low in temp say 100 - 120F, and the boiler is fired. Will the return protection run choked down for a long time? I think it will, because all the heat load from the tank will be on the boiler. Would that make the boiler less efficient, until the tank got to 140F?

 

[maple1]

I used the Danfoss unit that BoiledOver linked to, and I would recommend you put one in. I do have a question for everyone, because I am not sure what will happen. If his tank does get low in temp say 100 - 120F, and the boiler is fired. Will the return protection run choked down for a long time? I think it will, because all the heat load from the tank will be on the boiler. Would that make the boiler less efficient, until the tank got to 140F?

Not sure exactly what you mean there. But, colder storage (100-120) would theoretically mean that the boiler return temp would be at 140, for a longer period of time. (More supply going around the bypass would mean less going to storage therefore slower to get up above 140 at the bottom). IMO overall boiler efficiency is greater with cooler return temps - that cooler water should pull more heat out of the gasses before they go up the chimney. The effect might be minimal, but I think that's what it is. And also why I run cooler storage than when I first started.

 

[Marshy]

I'm not familiar with all of the return protection devices/methods but I am familiar with mine. Basically, the hot supply from the boiler is mixed with the returning water from the storage so that it is 140F or greater. The upper limit on my boiler jacket is like 200F. So, until the water returning from the storage tank reaches 140F its being being mixed with boiler supply. Once the tank return temp is 140F without mixing the valve will open all the way. My valve is thermostatic just like your car engines thermostat.

http://www.lkarmatur.com/en/products/thermic-valves--check-valves/lk-821-thermovar_55554462.aspx

Of course, with this kind of valve you will need a small circ pump for the boiler to constantly circulate while the boiler is being fired.

 

[maple1]

Mine is an LK810. Likely basically same as yours but it has a built in circ. Kinda pricey, but it works great.

 

[Marshy]

Mine is an LK810. Likely basically same as yours but it has a built in circ. Kinda pricey, but it works great.

Same principal, just yours has the pump integrated into it. They call those a loading unit.

 

[NateB]

Not sure exactly what you mean there. But, colder storage (100-120) would theoretically mean that the boiler return temp would be at 140, for a longer period of time. (More supply going around the bypass would mean less going to storage therefore slower to get up above 140 at the bottom). IMO overall boiler efficiency is greater with cooler return temps - that cooler water should pull more heat out of the gasses before they go up the chimney. The effect might be minimal, but I think that's what it is. And also why I run cooler storage than when I first started.

I agree it would be technically more efficient, but only if it would have enough flow. I would think it would take a long time for the boiler protection to open if it had 1000 gal of 120f water behind it. I think it would open a little, close and repeat for a long time. I don't really know for sure, it would be great to hear what jpelizza does and how it works for him.