I wasn't talking about the national level, you indicated earlier, national interests would keep many countries from participating. I was talking on an international level about your desire for a global ruling class that can impose and enforce any societal rules it wishes in the name of (settled) climate science.
Have we reached a tipping point?
- Thread starter begreen
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil. -
Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
I wasn't talking about the national level, you indicated earlier, national interests would keep many countries from participating. I was talking on an international level about your desire for a global ruling class that can impose and enforce any societal rules it wishes in the name of (settled) climate science.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Yes, that would be the petrochemical companies which have their toes in every pool. The petro companies are not alone in this. There are plenty of other industries, but everything overwhelmingly relies on the petro companies for every logistical need. The only mass transportation that doesn't use oil would be trains, but coal is hardly the answer either.
As you can see a fiercely competitive renewable/electric drive marketplace can solve most of the issues that we currently face. There's a wonderful biomass plant near me, but how could it ever be green energy when it takes petroleum to process the fuel? Solar and wind just cut out the petro companies all together. Now you can use electric tools that don't pollute, aside from initial production of the tools. Which is another point, plastic tools. Remember when tools lasted a lifetime? Well industry does and they don't miss it. They would much rather sell far more tools that will always break, more energy use.
You see this never ending spiral of waste. Converting carbon fuels into gasses will never be sustainable and we must change. No matter what kind of weird scenario you are suggesting that pro renewable folks want is irrelevant. You are the past, renewable energy is the future. No matter can be destroyed or lost, we are currently just making a bunch of solid and liquid matter into gasses and smaller solids. This is stupid, no matter how much I like chainsaws and race cars, this has to end.
Just laying out what I keep hearing and asking for clarification.
As much as I hate to admit it, I am a millennial, so hopefully I'll be around for awhile!
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Millennials are setting up the groundwork for the kids that are just now getting into high school to really alter the paradigm. Millennials will be voted into office in a few years by the new generation. It won't be some kind of dystopic overlord situation, simply elected leaders that support industry that won't destroy the planet. The goal is to continue the status quo with a balanced energy exchange, not live out A Brave New World.
Clarification - I expressed no desire for a global ruling class. These are your words. Your thoughts. It would be a lot better if world powers realized it's sink or swim and aligned toward a common purpose. The cost of not doing so is much greater than maintaining the status quo.
I guess I misunderstood you then, that seemed to be what you were getting at. What would you propose then? Paris climate accord type of deal? That approach is problematic at best. A handful of countries sit around a table and nod their heads, agreeing to take action that will damage their own economies. Countries that don't participate laugh as they improve their global position as other countries hurt themselves. Some of those countries are nefarious with imperialistic ambitions. Some of the participants agree, but do nothing. Quite a joke actually.
30+ years of failed predictions of imminent doom are also starting to weigh awfully heavily on the global cooling/global warming/climate change/whatever it's called now movement.
This is where I want our country and Japan to take leadership in exploring and developing carbon negative solutions. If we lead and develop alternatives then others like India will adopt and follow.
Coming up with exact dates is not going to happen, but where is the sense in putting the gas to the floor as one heads toward a cliff? Does one depend on the brakes (technology) at the last minute? Good luck with that plan.
It doesn't matter till they are correct, right? This reminds me of a tragic situation that occurred in March 2014 up north in Oso, WA. Many years ago developers got some riverside real estate in a quiet valley for cheap. They started selling lots and putting in infrastructure in spite of warnings that the area might not be geologically stable. This was ignored of course, because the scientist predictions hadn't come true for the last decade. Houses started going in, developers made money and then a hill a few miles away collapsed. The warnings went out again and were poo-pooed. It's a beautiful riverside spot and the land is cheap, what could go wrong? Scientists again pointed out instability going back to 1937, but they were ignored. That was a long time ago was the response. Thena timber company started logging the mountain above. The loggers were given clear boundaries set up to ensure a safety zone for the developing community down below. But as usual, greed took over and while no one was looking the logging crept over the boundary. Warnings went out and again were ignored. There were now too many houses and too much money invested to change the plan. Besides, life was good. Then one Sunday morning, after a spell of heavy rains, the entire mountainside collapsed. Heavy rains and soil saturation had reached the tipping point. In a matter of minutes, the mountainside let loose and a massive mudslide wiped out everything including the highway almost a mile away. 43 people were killed.
Coming up with exact dates is not going to happen, but where is the sense in putting the gas to the floor as one heads toward a cliff? Does one depend on the brakes (technology) at the last minute? Good luck with that plan.
Check out what the melting permafrost is revealing.
www.smithsonianmag.com
These feedback loops are already happening, regardless of what we do now.
I think it now comes down to adapting and surviving. What does survival mean? I don't know. Are geographically advantaged cities that plan, have economies of scale and people talent, are they going to thrive? Or is it going to be small rural communities ?
I think areas that don't flood, burn and have ample fresh water sources, are the places to be. This means mass migrations. Its what humans do to survive.
Was This 18,000-Year-Old Puppy Frozen in Siberian Permafrost the Ancestor of Wolves, Dogs or Both?
DNA tests on the well-preserved remains can't determine whether the little canine was wild or domestic
These feedback loops are already happening, regardless of what we do now.
I think it now comes down to adapting and surviving. What does survival mean? I don't know. Are geographically advantaged cities that plan, have economies of scale and people talent, are they going to thrive? Or is it going to be small rural communities ?
I think areas that don't flood, burn and have ample fresh water sources, are the places to be. This means mass migrations. Its what humans do to survive.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Latest NOAA report on the Arctic.
www.arctic.noaa.gov
Summary
Report Card 2019 - NOAA Arctic
Arctic Report Card: Update for 2019Arctic ecosystems and communities are increasingly at risk due to continued warming and declining sea ice Archive of previous Arctic Report Cards 2019 Arctic Report Card Arctic Report Card 2019 Vital Signs Other Indicators Frostbites More Information About...
www.arctic.noaa.gov
Summary
Weather is not the issue. Rather than sending in more money, tell your representatives to focus on addressing the impacts of climate change. Wasting less on war would be a good place to start.
Despite the media predictions after our current president was elected, he has not started WWIII. As far as war goes, we are in a relatively peaceful time at present.
Your comment about not sending money to the government to combat climate change is confusing. I can't recall any representative recently proposing a climate change solution that didn't come with a massive tax, restructuring of society or redistribution of wealth.
We do have a 16yr old girl named by time magazine as person of the year. She quit school, and is now preaching the cause of climate change, maybe she'll save us all. I feel bad for her, she is a child being used as a pawn by the left, entering a rough life of politics at a young age. She is rich though, and will continue to get richer, so I guess I don't feel that bad. She'll be the new Al Gore, do as I say not as I do.
We can point to the same subsidies at the state and federal level for the fossil fuel industry that is costing the tax payer billions of dollars. That is a redistribution of wealth that has been going on for decades. The same for pollution created by drillers/refiners etc.,, that is a cost that is passed on to every body else. Why should a company get to pollute the air and water we need to survive and not pay a price for it? That is something the government should regulate because it benefits us all. All the regulations now being rolled back for clean air and water will have serious, negative health effects on thousands of people, maybe you and I, too.
And shouldn't we transition to cleaner energy, like solar and wind, now that we have the technology to do it? It will give us cleaner air, water, mitigate global warming while creating thousands of jobs here at home.
At some level you have to realize you don't have an argument, rather a list of talking points that are well past their shelf life.
Tell the almost 10,000 troops in Afghanistan that. We are still in an 18 yr war in there. Total cost is approaching $1 Trillion. Add another trillion for their medical and disability payments coming. And almost 7000 US deaths so far (not including the many suicides). Mighty costly for a "peaceful" time.
Instead of sending more money, stop wasting it on wars and amping up the military budget. We outspend the budgets of all major nations - combined - on the military. We crank out tanks and humvees by the thousands just to park in the desert. And that is just one instance.
Again, misinformed. She is taking a break and has not quit school, though she is getting one heck of an education in the meantime. And though her family is well off, she is not rich. More mythos. For her age, she’s quite remarkable and must also be very courageous.
Last edited:
CaptSpiff
Minister of Fire
Thanks for that NOAA report and that CBS_News YouTube video on Arctic Melting.
I did not enjoy the CBS_News video of the exasperated former weatherman who gave up his lucrative career to become a Climate Alerter.
When the video ended, YouTube presented 6 related videos including a documentary from DW (the German equivalent of PBS) TV.
That also covered the melting Arctic ice, but from a Greenlandic and Inuit perspective. A perspective I have honestly not thought much about.
They are clearly looking forward to the relaxing of this long Ice Age the earth has been experiencing. Perspective is everything.
Infinite consumption of a finite resource is a short term proposition. While a few thousands in Greenland may temporarily benefit from the warming, millions will suffer and die. Warming Greenland is not all good. They were dealing with uncontrolled wildfires there last summer. All a matter of perspective.
Last edited:
CaptSpiff
Minister of Fire
Boy,... you hit that one a mile!
We've made so much progress to become energy self-sufficient, while not harming our population by letting energy costs rise to negatively affect our economy. And we've set ourselves up to transition our fossil based economy into one which soon will be heavily renewable based. The country no longer needs the Middle East products. It is high time for us to reduce our police actions and bring our troops home.
But you know who does need the Middle East oil? Europe, Japan and South East Asia. They have been some of the biggest beneficiaries of the US subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. Time for them to carry a bit more weight, starting in Europe. Instead of asking their countries to increase NATO funding to 2% of their own GDPs, we should tell them the US will begin a 5 year time line to reduce NATO funding by the US to the annual avg % of all individual members. With 100% of that savings going into US infrastructure and clean energy transition.
I'm seeing a Pelosi/Trump hug-fest in the future. (Hey, ... cough-cough, ... maybe this stuff is a lot stronger today than back in the day)
We can agree on the US global policing role, however, as much as you hate military spending, it is necessary to some degree. If we hadn't spent money to have a powerful military in the past, we'd probably be speaking German right now (and also not allowed to argue, which maybe you'd prefer)
She'll be rich soon!
Last edited by a moderator:
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
Lol, this is not a peaceful time. Perhaps more peaceful than 1944 or 1968, but not exactly peaceful when multiple genocides are taking place and concentration camps are filling with Muslims and Latinos.
SpaceBus
Minister of Fire
No, we would not be speaking German as they didn't want a war with us. The United States only got involved at the tail end. The Russians won the war in real life, Americans won it in text books.
CaptSpiff
Minister of Fire
Perhaps in another thread you can explain in a few sentences how you define "concentration camps".
Tipping point be tipping.
Australia fires
www.bbc.com
![[Hearth.com] Have we reached a tipping point?](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/254/254477-46f9a3592ca3a4a8a2395aa4d3796d25.jpg?hash=X74Du6enaL "[Hearth.com] Have we reached a tipping point?")
Moscow winter
www.reuters.com
Australia fires
Australia fires: Military to be deployed to help rescue effort
Aircraft and ships will be sent to New South Wales and Victoria, as thousands flee to the coast.
www.bbc.com
Moscow winter
Moscow wonders where winter has gone as temperatures hit 133-year high
Residents of Moscow are wondering where winter has gone as the highest December temperatures for 133 years deprive the Russian capital of its customary covering of snow.
www.reuters.com
Similar threads
- Locked
