GREEN$$$$

[MrGriz]

Well, this thread seems to have jumped the tracks and should be headed for the ash can any time now....

I agree with Cast, the purpose of this forum is not to point out that someone is currently doing without or lacking something. The purpose is to point out alternative and possibly better ways to achieve things like heat for your home and water, reducing your gas and electric bill. Also, to do these things with a varied investment in time and money for equipment. That way, people (rich, middle class, poor, ...) can stretch what they do have and possibly obtain some of the other things they would otherwise have to do without to supply their basic necessities.

Winston, pardon me if I sound like kind of a smart a$$, but sometimes I just have to get things right in my head, so I'm sure we're on the same page. You sound like a 20 something (?), educated (?), working poor / lower middle class (?), with a computer and an internet connection but no refrigerator or water heater (?), who is harboring an illegal immigrant (?). I just want to be sure that I understand where your perspective and comments are coming from.

Just what are you suggesting with your comments. If the purpose and advice of this web site is mis-directed, where would it be on target? What would you see as the proper direction or goals of our discussions?

So far I have seen a large number of people become less dependent on electricity and natural gas or LP for heat and hot water. I have received good advice on how to better insulate my home and further lower my energy usage and bills. I have received tips on how to more efficiently burn the wood that I acquire and better ways to cut the cost of my wood supply. There have been discussions on alternative 'green' methods of construction, which will help those people become more self sufficient, allowing them to stretch their budget farther. Forum members have posted countless other ideas for each other to save money on the gear that is necessary to scrounge and process wood. If this forum isn't about people helping people be less dependent on traditional sources of energy and get more for their money, I'm not sure what it's about.

Sure, we have our off topic discussions also, but it's all in good fun and still promotes an exchange of ideas. In fact this thread was started by a member who is excited about the amount of money he is currently saving on his gas and electric bills as a result of his switching to wood heat and a number of other energy saving ideas he got right here. I'm sure he is able to do things with the money he is saving that he would not have been otherwise able to do.

Sorry if this turned into some what of a rant. If I misunderstood your point, I apologize. If I did, please elaborate.

 

[jjbaer]

The implication I came away with this paragraph was that it was not worth the time or space to publicize doing without a water heater (social exclusion). Authoritarian elite groups generally try to suppress the free flow of information and that is how I interpreted this paragraph. The "insight into...the masses" and similar thought-ending cliches suggested to me an elitist take on my posting. If my interpretation was wrong, my apologies.

Comment: you should learn to cut to the chase, Winston, and learn to stand-up for your beliefs. If you want to discuss the plight of people who have NO hot-water available, then by all means, start a new thread on this forum (just like the person did who started this thread) and ask this question for people to discuss: "what should we do about those who have no hot water capability".
But be prepared to field questions like I asked you but, unlike you did with me, you'll need to answer them. What do I mean, you ask? I told you that 2 people working at minimum wage easily earn more than poverty wages even for a family of 4 but you glossed over the discussion as to why many of these people don't opt to do this. Be prepared when you open a thread of your own to answer the questions people ask.

Of course, the U.S. government uses an absolute method of determining poverty. Experts debate over whether the more accurate picture of poverty is achieved using an absolute method of poverty-a firm dollar figure cutoff in this case-versus a relative measure of poverty. My emphasis is on a relative measure of poverty, and many government programs use 150% or 200% of the U.S. government's poverty guidelines in determining eligibility for various social welfare programs. It is a widely discussed point in poverty circles.

Yes, I aspire to one day own a water heater. But right now the old wood stove and solar heating with have to do all my water heating needs on those cold winter days. Have you ever taken a cold shower in a 60 degree room? It really wakes you up!

I would not say this web page is elitist per se, but some of our forum members come off that way. Not mentioning any names at the moment.

Comment: Ok, let's use the 150% figure.....since the Government uses $20,000 as poverty level for a family of four, 150% is $30,000. Back to that same couple working $6/hr jobs that I spoke about earlier......except let's throw in some overtime and work each of them 50 hrs/week. Two people, each working 50 hrs per week at $6/hr, earn over $30,000/year, even more if you add overtime for the additional 10 hrs per week. So, I ask you again, why can't people fend for themselves and pull themselves out of their plight?

Yes, I do consider it a luxury to go without a water heater and refrigerator. The back-to-the-land approach and simple living techniques are in my opinion sorely needed in this power/money/technology driven world we live in. What happened to the nuclear family?

Comment: first you tell us we don't talk enough about the poor, then that we have hot water but the poor can't afford it, then insinuate we're "elitists" and now tell us "you consider it a luxury to go without a water heater and a refrigerator"..... so, what is it NOT to have hot water....a curse upon the poor or a "luxury" as you now call it??

Just the other weak my Mexican immigrant friend got his job whacked in house construction. Sure he is here illegally, but he works hard and wants to own private property and a fridge and water heater and good food. He is bunking with me right now until he can find steadier work. Just today he walked around town looking for work but there seems to be a backlash against hard working illegal immigrants in some areas in America. How can a great nation like America allow this to take place? My Mexican friend deserves the best just like everyone else...what happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit...hard work just don't get you nowhere anymore. Its like I give my friend Castiron money or some business money and get a stuffed dog in return. Simple exchange of values.

Someday I hope we can all live under the blanket of peace and humanity, but right now the situation is trying for many families. We will continue to pray and hold out hope for a better tomorrow. It is another day but who knows if the sun is rising or if the sun is falling friend Castiron.

Comment: ok...there's a thing called "laws" and those "laws" say people have to be here legally......you, on the other hand seem to gloss over that yet want jobs and the good life for everyone who finds their way to our country. Did it not occur to you that the very reason for these laws is so that we can "match" the rate at which people come to the USA against the "job creation rate" and thus avoid the very situation your friend now finds himself in (here illegally and with no job)????

And you said:

"my Mexican friend deserves the best just like everyone else...what happened to life, liberty, and the pursuit...hard work just don't get you nowhere anymore"

and I say to your friend "go back to Mexico and apply LEGALLY to enter the United States" and THEN we'll talk about his getting a job and enjoying the "good life".

 

[JayY]

Is this thread officially trash? I would like to get back on the path and discuss energy usage. This thread has some very interesting info over a long period and it is a shame to watch it turn into political debate that is completely unrelated to the subject.

I don't have my energy usage in front of me but I know that I often only use 2 or 3 kw in my barn but it still costs me $23 a month. Most of this is the service fee. National Grid in Western NY charges barns the business rates whether there is a business or not. If the thread gets back on track I will look up my residential costs/usage for comparison.

I am not surprised that so many have discovered CF. This technology has really caught on. I am somewhat surprised that Solar energy has not come up. Just like wood heat, it gives the individual some freedom from the energy companies.