GREEN$$$$

[tradergordo]

Yea, the large discrepancies in electric rates REALLY bug me. My parents live in Ohio and pay 9 cents per kWh, I live in Pennsylvania, just a couple hundred miles away, in the most coal rich state in the country, I've got a coal power plant right near my house, and I'm almost within sight of a nuclear power plant, and I'm paying 15 cents per kWh. This is 57% higher than the national average according to the department of energy. I asked my utility company and the Pennsylvania public utility commission (who approves all rates) about this but neither could give me any explanation for why the rate is 57% higher than the national average or why our neighbors in Ohio pay almost half what we pay. I for one can't WAIT to get "off grid" as soon as some viable technology comes along that makes economic sense.

Dylan, our's here in CT... (I have CL&P) is around 13 cents / KWH right? I can't believe some pay $27.00 / month for electricity. I am kind of a elecrtical usage nazi here, all flourescent lights, hot water heated by oil burner, line dry laundry, etc, and I average between $85.00 and $95.00 per month.

Chris,

I was researching electricity rates and noticed that effective Jan 2006, CL&P rates went up 18% and 5% more in Apr for a total increase of 23% in 2006 alone. I saw an explanation for this here:

(broken link removed)

Seems that due to deregulation, CL&P can't generate any more electricity so has to buy it elsewhere..... thus leading to much higher costs. They say that the avg user who uses 700 KW-hrs per month can expect a bill of about $120/month (about 17cents/KW-hr) AND, that if it weren't for them buying 2006 energy in ADVANCE, your bill would be 3 cents/KW-higher........that would make a bill for 700 KW-HRS be about $141/month. Translation: they're telling you you're getting a bargain at $120 (you're not) because it could be $141 (so they say)....... All I know is that you folks are getting shafted up there in New England......BIG TIME.......700Kw-hrs here in the Dayton, OH area costs about $77 and I think that's high!

 

[tradergordo]

Some day I'd like to get one of those electric meters where I can see what everything is using and adjust accordingly.

I finally bit the bullet and told the wife I wanted this for Christmas. I know I'll probably end up adding more wall switches or in the least power strips so that I can easily power down everything that sucks down electricity even when "off" (like TVs, printers, monitors, set top boxes, DVD players, etc.)

 

[tw40x81]

I've been waiting for Fred Seton to finish up with the co-generation add on to his wood fired boiler. I don't have one, but I would seriously look into it if this co-generation thing worked.

 

[njtomatoguy]

Dylan-

No false info here...

svs.charge for electric. $2.44
dist.chg 5.66


sub total _delivery 12.77

Supply 8.02
6.37

sub total supply 14.39

Total for electric 27.16
Actual reading oct 23
Actual reading nov. 21

I had this same conversation with my neighbor when he was checking out my splitter-- THAT"S Impossible, He says..
But,

I'm single.
I do laundry once or twice a week
My house is tiny, 2 br 1 bath ranch.
I cook all my meals, but do dishes by hand.

I do not:
Light the rooms I do not use.
Use a dishwasher twice a day like he does.
Have the house set at 80 in the winter and 65 in the summer.
have a 6 light lightpost in the yard, lit from sun-down to sun-up.
have a soffit light(flood) over every window in the front of my house, lit from sun-down to sun -up
have a motion sensor light(2 Floods) in my driveway that go on every time thwe wind blows.
His wife does laundry 3 times a day. Electric washer and dryer.

His bill $ 268 on the equal payment plan..

 

[tradergordo]

But I'll go back to what you said before: tv and computer on 24/7, and your refrigeratror set at "8". IMNSHO, you're consuming seven kw-hrs per day right there. Something sounds fishy.

That all comes off the "special" outlet connected to an extention cord, plugged into his neighbor's juice

 

[begreen]

LOL. You're bad TG. :lol:

 

[njtomatoguy]

Dylan- thanks for the insight--

I have let the meter reader in on the past two months, so I assumed it was accurate- now I have to figure out what's wrong with the billing so I don't get whacked with an adjustment. I walked around the house and figured this out

ELECTRIC:
In the bathroom, I have 1 flourescent tube instead of the previous 2

Kitchen- I got a new microwave, which I unplug when not in use. Coffee pot also unplugged when not in use. Fridge turned to 6 today, 9 being the coldest

Utility room. 1 cf bulb in fixture near washer/dryer instead of 100 watt.

Living room- TV on 24/7, or when that's off, stereo on for dogs. Table lamp 18w CF, left on for dogs at night when I'm not home. 60w regular bulb in reading lamp next to recliner, used in am/pm when reading. Oscillating fan on counter between LR/Kitchen used ocassionally. Box fan has not been used since I removed window A/C in Oct. Lamp by couch CF only used when I have company.

Master BR-
Lamp on dresser- Used every day, CF.
Alarm clock- always on
Computer- always on, bought in march last year, energy saving monitor, printer off. Desk lamp CF, rarely used. cell phone charger unplugged unless actually in use.

Hallway light - MISSED THAT ONE! 100 watt - Changing that one out today!

Spare BR- Storage during remodeling- 1 lamp on dresser CF Rarely used.

Porch light- rarely used 60w regular bulb.

Carport light - rarely used - 60w regular bulb

GAS:
Water heater- set midway between warm and hot
Range- at least 20 yrs old, with pilot for oven and a pilot on each side for 4 burners
Furnace- Original to house, 1954 Pilot Off
Vent free wall heater- No pilot, Have not used since installing woodstove

Thanks for the heads up,

Bob

 

[njtomatoguy]

THANKS FOR THE EDUCATION, AND HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED

UPDATE-

Fridge on 7 instead of 9 for 1 month

Changed out all bulbs except reading light by recliner to CF

Turned off computer when not home- and all night- turned off printer altogether

Cooked more than 1 meal at a time in gas oven.

Turned off TV- When I am not actually watching it

I do leave a radio on for the dogs, when I'm not home

Did better with the laundry, full loads, twice a week. Still used the electric dryer.

Turned down temp on HW heater.

Made a conscious effort to use less hot water, short showers and rinsed dishes with cold instead of hot.

Used cold only while doing laundry.

So that puts Total Gas cost at 26.91 and Total electric cost at 34.03

for a grand total of $60.94

The gas is used for hot water and cooking only- have not used the furnace or the vent free wall heater at all since installing the stove.

This month, my plan is to minimze the use of the dryer, and see how low it can go!

 

[njtomatoguy]

240

240 kwh@ 0.054916667 Delivery = 15.64

240 kwh @ 0.076625000 Supply = 18.39

Actual reading dec. 23 90403

Actual reading Nov. 21 90163

Total kwh 240


Dylan, look at the pic of my house in pictures- It's a very small house..

 

[njtomatoguy]

Dylan

btw,

I think i remember one of your posts about coffe on the stove, I can't wait- electric coffee pot in am.

 

[bcnu]

Energy cost for Portland Or area:
basic charge 10.00
250kWh x 8.43 21.08
653kWh x 8.15 53.51
transmission charge 903 kWh x 0.32 2.93
distribution charge 903 kWh x 2.27 20.52

Total $107.74

subtract 31.60 credits Total 78.00 (Resource Value Difference - whatever that is?)

Using oil heat at about $2.30 gallon until the remodel finished and new wood stove in. Have a 40 year old oil furnace that works well but I'm going to look into updating the burner unit or whatever I can to make it more efficient. AC is provided by opening doors and windows and a lying on the basement floor basement that stays about 60 degrees on a hot summer day.

 

[njtomatoguy]

The only gas I use is Hot water heater, which I installed new about a year ago- no pilot- and an OLD oven/stove in the kitchen, which has 3 pilots- one for each set of burners, 1 for oven- I hate it, and the next thing I do will be to replace this beast with a new stove-electronic ignition, of course..

 

[BrotherBart]

Eat your hearts out guys. Running the down stairs data center and the house all electric and wood the bill this month was $37.64. Got a $47 return of capital credit from the co-op kissing our rears again to keep us from choosing another supplier.

In other words I go $47 back that they have overcharged me in the past.

 

[wahoowad]

njtomatoguy, isn't your Ryobi pulling some juice? I thought I saw your pics with that massive pile of wood in the backyard, right?

 

[Gunner]

njtomatoguy, isn't your Ryobi pulling some juice? I thought I saw your pics with that massive pile of wood in the backyard, right?

SSShhhhhh.....he runs an extension cord to the neighbours for the Ryobi. ;-P

 

[colsmith]

I borrowed an electricity meter called a Kill-a-Watt from a woman whose "green" (reduce reuse recycle and something with a p) mailing list I am on. You can use it on anything that plugs into an outlet, just put it betwee the electrical outlet and the device's cord. We are learning interesting things about our freezers, waterbed heater, etc. Wish we could put it on the hot water heater, but that is direct wired into the house. We use a lot more electricity here than we did in our previous home, and we are trying to figure out why that is. Main difference is the freezers and the water heater. Old house was all natural gas stuff, and yet we had low gas bills and low electric bills. Anyway, we are finding out the kilowatt hours used by each and every big device, and making notes. Not sure what we will do about it yet.

We have also been very gleeful about the huge drop in gas usage from last year. Last year only our furnace was gas, now our kitchen stove is, so we still use gas even when heating with wood.

 

[njtomatoguy]

Yes, ryobi pulls a lot of juice- electric went up, even with all the things I did to get it to go down..

Nov. Electric 27.16

Dec. Electric 34.03

Nov. Gas 33.56

Dec Gas 26.91

 

[jjbaer]

Eat your hearts out guys. Running the down stairs data center and the house all electric and wood the bill this month was $37.64. Got a $47 return of capital credit from the co-op kissing our rears again to keep us from choosing another supplier.

In other words I go $47 back that they have overcharged me in the past.

I still maintain that the ONLY relevant information, when it comes to electrical consumption is: kwatt-hr/month, family size, house size, appliances electricity.

BUT, I don't wanna appear overly nosey.

Dylan,

You're correct....otherwise one cannot gauge if the bill is too high. I also recommend that if people are going to post here, that they tell the following (mine is after each):


- state they live in: (ohio)
- sq ft of house: (1700)
- people in house (2)
- major appliances: (NG furnace and HW htr, elec dryer)
- amount of insulation in house: (very good)
- kw-hrs used,# of days in bill, avg bill, and is it an estimated, actual or level bill: (500 KW-Hrs/mo, $50/mo, actual bill)
- NG used in therms (1 therm = 1 CCF = 100 cubic ft), # days in bill , avg bill, and is it an estimated, actual or level bill: (55 therms/mo, $55/mo avg, actual bill)

 

[jjbaer]

THANKS FOR THE EDUCATION, AND HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED

UPDATE-

Fridge on 7 instead of 9 for 1 month

Changed out all bulbs except reading light by recliner to CF

Turned off computer when not home- and all night- turned off printer altogether

Cooked more than 1 meal at a time in gas oven.

Turned off TV- When I am not actually watching it

I do leave a radio on for the dogs, when I'm not home

Did better with the laundry, full loads, twice a week. Still used the electric dryer.


Turned down temp on HW heater.

Made a conscious effort to use less hot water, short showers and rinsed dishes with cold instead of hot.

Used cold only while doing laundry.

So that puts Total Gas cost at 26.91 and Total electric cost at 34.03

for a grand total of $60.94

The gas is used for hot water and cooking only- have not used the furnace or the vent free wall heater at all since installing the stove.

This month, my plan is to minimze the use of the dryer, and see how low it can go!

Still not sure what happened that caused you to report only 185 Kw-hrs used at the start of the post, then you implemented major power reductions and now you're reporting even higher consumptions of about 240 Kw-hrs used?? Was your 185 Kw-hrs you reported earlier an estimated bill when in fact you thought it was an actual? Why the lower bill then and higher now that you've reduced power even more?

 

[jjbaer]

Still not sure what happened that caused you to report only 185 Kw-hrs used at the start of the post.....

I recall...and I prolly could've been a little nicer about saying so.

I think even a medium-sized refrigerator will consume about three kwatt-hrs/day....that's ninety for a month.

Yes and if you add to that the TV and computer, you're easily up to well over 200 KW hrs/mo just for those three items alone.....

 

[njtomatoguy]

castiron

Yes, ryobi pulls a lot of juice- electric went up, even with all the things I did to get it to go down..

Nov. Electric 27.16

Dec. Electric 34.03

Nov. Gas 33.56

Dec Gas 26.91

electric went up from 190 to 240 kwh, but gas consumption went down from 19.939 therms to 15.711 therms.

I did run about 1.5 cords thru the ryobi, and if that ran up the usage- well worth the $7

Winston- I like what you pointed out- and will concentrate on averaging out instead of each individual thing-

Still a hell of a lot better than the $152 Equal Payment plan..

 

[ChrisN]

I had a Chemistry professor at Three Rivers Community College ( Dylan would recognize that) who turned his water heater off on Memorial Day and turned it back on at Columbus Day. He also only cut his hair once a year, in the late spring and then just let it grow until the next spring. He was single.. for good reason I guess!

Winston, your ideas are interesting but might be coming from kind of an idealized position. As a family with two teenage boys and two working parents it would be near impossible to not have a 24/7 running refrigerator. Or, at the very least, it would make a big difference on our quality of life. As far as heating goes, I think it would work out better to heat only a communal area, like the main living space and close off bedrooms. That is pretty much what I do now with the Jotul. the kids bedrooms are upstairs and we have the stove in a great-room that is open to the upstairs via a loft. So everything in the downstairs living area and upstairs is toasty. Our bedroom is downstairs at the far end of the house and on cold nights can drop into the low 50's. Chilly but that is why we have lots of blankets!

Cutting out dryer use makes a big difference. We do a load of laundry almost every day, but dry inside in the winter and on the line in the summer. We might use the dryer for one load a week.

I think I average about 450kwh / month for my 4 bedroom house. Water is heated by oil furnace.

 

[jjbaer]

I feel there is too much "inside-the-box" thinking taking place in this thread. Consider shutting off the hot water heater and using only cold water (a savings of over 4,000 KW/year on an electric storage tank). Turn off the refrigerator and cook from scratch only what will be eaten (a savings of over 1,000 KW/year). Do not run the air conditioner-finish a room in the basement, run ceiling/box fans and "hibernate" for the warm months in mid to upper 70 temps. If need be, huddle the family into the master bedroom and run ONLY an electric space heater 24/7 during the cold months. 1.5 KW/HR Space heater @ 5100 BTU's hour will cost (36KW per day*180 days heating=6480 KW for 6 months of heating*0.15/per KW for electricity=$972 a year assuming space heater runs 24/7 for 6 months. One of those space heaters will heat a 20x20 room with TIGHT insulation. Average insulation maybe 20x15 room. Heating bill will probably less than that depending on outside temps, house insulation, etc. Conservative estimate with space heater is $800/yr at $0.15 per kilowatt hour. Take into account there is no "investment" in chainsaws, stove pipe, installation, SS pipe, the opportunity cost of time invested in wood cutting/splitting/stacking/etc. and you have a substantial savings over any other alternative form of heating. .

Winston,

I noticed you just recently joined (welcome) and I can see where someone would say "I have a better idea...just pull the plug on the item to save money" however, the purpose of this forum is to try to think of ways to "have our cake (save money) and eat it too (still have our modern conveniences)"...LOL.....

I sense the tongue-in-cheek laughter you're trying to convey by going to extremes and saying we "think too inside the box" whereas you're giving us the "big picture/outside the box" view. Here's the problem......most of us are already aware of what awaits us "outside the box" (doing without some of these luxuries) and most people "won't go there" and won't give up these items. Instead, forum members seek a "happy medium" whereby we can enjoy these creature comforts AND reduce costs.

You're correct that you could save about 4000 Kw-hrs per year (about $500/yr) by not using hot water, etc, but those are drastic measures that only a single person MIGHT resort to to save money and I'm betting that even single males out there are willing to pay a few dollars a month to enjoy warm showers....LOL..... The response people might be looking for along these lines goes like this:

Consider reducing water heating bills by doing these:

1) if you use electric, if possible, convert to Natural gas.
2) in all cases, reduce the temperature setting
3) insulate your hot water heater with a water heater approved thermal blanket
4) when away from home for extended periods (days to weeks) turn off the hot water heater
5) when it's time to get a new water heater, trade-off paying more $ for a higher efficiency model vs a lower efficiency model
6) Also when you purchase a new water heater, consider downsizing the capacity because about 50% of the cost to operate a water heater is in maintaining the water temperature even when you're NOT using any hot water at all!

And your suggestion to turn off all the heat and use space heaters also need not be that drastic: I have about a 1700 sq ft house and my natural gas bill (furnace and hot water) is about $600/year. This is due to implementing my above comments on the water heater, using a programmable thermostat to set-back the furnace temperature when needed and burning a small amount of wood to supplement my heat.

Also, sometimes to save money you must, in the short term, spend money. I insulated my home and bought a 96% efficient furnace and a DC variable speed motor to save on electricity. So, the reason we're thinking "inside the box" in this forum is because we already know what awaits us "outside the box" and it "ain't pretty"...LOL.....and most people WON'T go there....LOL..... Instead, we "nip at the edge of the efficiency box" where it's a "given" that we'll have these luxuries items and we instead discuss ways to save money without doing away with them entirely. It then becomes a trade-off between still having the item (hot water) but maybe using less of it and/or having a smaller tank, etc......

Also, when you suggest "getting rid of the fridge", again, that's more drastic than what one needs to do. The forum answer here might be to set back the cold settings in both fridge compartments and/or get a new fridge.....the total yearly cost to operate a new, modern, self-defrosting fridge is a whopping $55/year.......a little over $4/month for a convenience that most won't ever give up.......

Also, in your space heater idea, you said:

"Conservative estimate with space heater is $800/yr at $0.15 per kilowatt hour. Take into account there is no "investment" in chainsaws, stove pipe, installation, SS pipe, the opportunity cost of time invested in wood cutting/splitting/stacking/etc. and you have a substantial savings over any other alternative form of heating."

You're forgetting that for some of these people on the forum, their "investment" in stoves, saws, etc., allows many of them to have virtually NO heating bill..... NOW, take that $800 YOU'LL use per year on space heaters and THEIR "investment" is paid-back in about 3-6 years. Kind of makes their "investment" look pretty good..... Also, there's the added satisfaction that burning wood is pretty much "carbon neutral".......

BTW......I've often thought I'd implement your "no hot water heater" idea if it were just me in the house but, for the vast, vast majority, these are unrealistic ideas. Instead, forum members seek ways to keep these luxuries while reducing costs associated with having them.

Again, welcome

 

[jjbaer]

Castiron,

I appreciate your feedback and please forgive my extreme suggestions if they are not realistic and/or applicable for the majority of people. The majority of people will probably not see a situation like that, but the intention was for illustration purposes. As an American I believe some of us take certain lifestyle comforts and "luxuries" for granted. Electricity, hot water, central heating, plumbing etc. are not always available to every American family.

Indeed, most forum users are likely from a middle class background with families to support and care for, but there are those less fortunate and they are the ones I was trying to reach. I agree that mainstream America and corporate capitalism will look at my post and may say, "What time is this guy living in?" "Such extermism!" "Crazy reactionary man who lives like a hermit in Wyoming or Montana" etc. Yes, my post was in part intended to evoke some laughter, but the ones on Skid Row know how applicable my post may be.

Now onto reducing water heating bills:

1. Natural gas remains a volatile commodity traded on an exchange with little to no regulation. Hence, unless natural gas trades in a more stable manner in the future, consumers may be forced to have wide price swings in their natural gas bills. I agree with you that at this time natty gas is cheaper than electric when heating with hot water. However, the future of natural gas as a stable supply is not fully certain.
2. I agree
3. Great idea
4. Excellent suggestion
5. I like your perspective here.
6. Another great insight. I will add that water heating in itself is very inefficient, requiring 57 BTUs to heat one gallon of water. However, as you said it is a creature comfort for those that can afford it.

Drastic times sometimes call for drastic measures friend. The middle class is being squeezed by rising healthcare, insurance, gasoline, housing, food, heating, rents, etc. expenses. Can we say our children or grandchildren are going to be better off than we are? Will they be able to enjoy the same lifestyle? How will their quality of life compare? Rising federal budget deficits, trade deficits, Medicare/Social Security reform, potential income tax increases and outsourcing remain headwinds to the future of our children. Speaking as a man in his 20's, I'm not sure there will be a government bailout when I retire. Young people still have to pay FICA taxes to support beneficiaries on the system even though Social Security may be drastically different when we retire. These issues concern many Americans and may mean drastic political measures in the future.

I congratulate you on the energy efficient initiatives you have taken-insulation, furnace, and variable motor. As for the fridge, in winter cold weather, snow, and ice in a normal winter serves as my refrigerator. This weather has me twitter-painted.

Most on this forum probably have little to no heating bill from heating with wood. I praise everyone who does. I will mention the time value of money and inflation for the payback period (discounted cash flow analysis I guess). Also, the opportunity cost of lost wages and time may want to be accounted for, but this may be offset or exceeded by what is gained from the satisfaction of heating with wood.

I want to thank you for an excellent reply Castiron. Hopefully we are all better off because of it and each of us has gained a little more perspective into different people's experiences. My intention is to offer the view from the poor working class family who is trying to make ends meet. As much as we would like to, we cannot afford some creature comforts the average American does. It is my opinion that the poor folk are at times lost or forgotten in this world and maybe on this forum.

W. Smith

Winston,

Excellent post! I agree with your comment on natural gas......time could very well vindicate you as to the fluctuating price of NG. As far as your comment that:

"It is my opinion that the poor folk are at times lost or forgotten in this world and maybe on this forum"

I really don't see how this is the case. Your "do without" (hot water, refrigerator, etc) options are already known to poor, middle class and rich alike so publicizing these suggestions on this or any other forum doesn't provide any NEW alternatives for the poor that they don't already know about. What the forum does do, however, is for those who want to have these items (hot water, etc) it provides insight into what the masses may be doing in an attempt to not only have these items but to keep the price down and this, in turn, IS of value to the poor, the middle class and the rich...... so I guess I really don't understand your concern.

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say that a HUGE percentage of people in the United States have running water, both hot and cold and a refrigerator. Also, not having hot water isn't the end of the world and many cities do provide subsidized housing at little to no rent and they do have electricity, hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating systems, etc....so, I guess I don't understand your exact concern. Please elaborate for us as to the exact group you're referring to and what their plight is because I think we'd all like to know.

Thanks.

 

[jjbaer]

The group I was referring to was impoverished individuals and families. According to a 2004 estimate from the Census Bureau 12% (over 20 million) of the U.S. population lives in poverty. Rather than post anything new to the forum, my post may be viewed in terms of getting the word out about poverty (like getting the vote out). My concern is with those who have material need, specifically those who are deprived of essential goods and services. These include food (refrigerator), (hot) water, shelter, education, and healthcare. Extremism and lack of sanitation are effects of poverty. To suggest that the working poor not post on this forum because we cannot contribute anything "new" to the discussion is a form of social exclusion. Naturally we are used to not getting social justice-being glossed over, excluded, and forgotten by government, the elite, forums, etc. The government response to Hurricane Katrina is an example. The plight of this group is that many are homeless and live in ghettos. As you may know, power and wealth in the hands of an elite group does not necessarily lead to optimal outcomes. It seems our American Dream may be an illusion that never was attainable. It was all government propaganda.

Winston,

Help me here......let's take a man an woman whom you claim are the working poor. Did you know that a couple, both working at entry level food industry jobs, as in, say, a McDonalds, can each make over $6/hr....that's $12/hr combined and while not a lot, it equates to $24,000/year (with NO overtime) which, by the way is $4,000 ABOVE the 2006 definition of poverty in the 48 lower states ($20,000 for a family of 4 is the 2006 poverty level cut-off)..... Also, even if there is only one person working (let's say the mother is at home with the children) a man is able to work overtime so working 60 hrs per week, a man can earn over $20,000 per year. So, please tell me, except for in extremely remote areas, why is there still all this poverty when even an entry level job provides a paycheck that lifts one above the poverty level?

Also, I know at least around here, that people are eligible to have their medical bills paid if they earn under about $30,000 for a family of four and they also get discounts on phone service, etc.

Also, to somehow suggest that I insinuated that "the working poor not post on this forum because we cannot contribute anything "new" to the discussion is a form of social exclusion" is wrong. I never said that. What I did say was that ALL people already know about the "don't have a hot water heater" option but that does nobody any good to say it or post it if they currently have no hot water heater. What does help all people, however, is that if you're thinking about having a hot water heater, what's the cheapest way to go about doing it and that's what this forum does provide. Put another way: if I were poor and currently had no hot water heater, it does me no good at all to have someone tell me the obvious of "do without a hot water heater" because that's where I am now (if I were poor, that is). However, if I were poor and were aspiring to ever get a water heater, the information provided on this web page could make the difference between me being able to afford one or not.

It seems to me as though you've picked this web page to "single out" as being somehow "elitist" and then throwing out the "do without" option simply because others don't also have that luxury. Am I correct?