If only the federal politicians behaved like the members here at hearth.com . . . if only . . . things would be a heckuva lot more civil.
got to love Mass government??????
- Thread starter Doug MacIVER
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
I strongly disagree. Both political parties are not equally to blame for the federal budget deficits. Since the 80s Republicans keep passing tax cuts that don't pay for themselves, and they keep increasing defense spending. They drive up huge deficits that Democratic administrations have to deal with later on.
The Bush tax cuts didn't pay for themselves. The Trump tax cuts are not paying for themselves either because the deficit is growing again, in a time of economic prosperity - which is remarkable in itself. The current fiscal policies of this Republican administration put us in the course of stagflation - high interest rates and low growth.
When the next recession hits, we are going to be choked out by high interest rates. The only choice the fed is going to have is to do more QE.
now there you go vin! you leave out the fed, got to be in there. the fed has nothing to do with tax cuts or tax increases. the fed is the one that prints the dough you and I spend. they are the ones that tell you what your mortgage payment is and how much the banks charge your dredredit card.
. if all you folks just paid more , as you can voluntarily, we would be all set. I say let's all pay our fair share, tell us what it is? the Fed is the real force behind our economy and they see inflation as the enemy,so make the economy and consumer slow it down. in the mean time just pay your fair share! then we won't ever run into another tough economic time, until we give houses away again to those that could never pay rent? remember Gw ran into the tech bubble rt after Bubba left office? wasn't that the last Balanced era?
. if all you folks just paid more , as you can voluntarily, we would be all set. I say let's all pay our fair share, tell us what it is? the Fed is the real force behind our economy and they see inflation as the enemy,so make the economy and consumer slow it down. in the mean time just pay your fair share! then we won't ever run into another tough economic time, until we give houses away again to those that could never pay rent? remember Gw ran into the tech bubble rt after Bubba left office? wasn't that the last Balanced era?
meanwhile back to Mass. on the same topic as my last comment, Mass has a voluntary tax payment ! you can elect to pay the old 5.7% tax rate, if you so choose to> I may be wrong here, but! some 700-1000 of over million tax payers chose that option. I would guess from that , most of those million taxpayers want to keep their .7% in their pockets! even in this blue of blue almost triple blue state.
got to correct this , its 1200 and they pay 5.85% not 5.7%. they donate some extra $1/4 million to the states 40bill.+ budget.
got to correct this , its 1200 and they pay 5.85% not 5.7%. they donate some extra $1/4 million to the states 40bill.+ budget.
Last edited:
So your saying the $10 Trillion with a T, added to the Natl debt during the Obama years was all the GOPs fault ? Frankly we dont see much change in the debt and deficit no matter who is in office. Other than out borrowing,printing and spending each previous administration. It only goes up. Politicians are equal opportunity spenders. The only question is how badly will it end.
The Bush tax cuts were a fiscal disaster. Two unfunded wars were a fiscal disaster. Add recession spending, and here we are.
From the article link below.
![[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/228/228767-7384049d33cbc8f293573a137f2aca97.jpg?hash=3W_nQ73boT "[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????")
I am glad the Federal Reserve stepped in with QE during the recession, otherwise we would be in far worse place economically. And the Federal Gov't should have spent more money with a bigger stimulus package for infrastructure at the beginning of the recession. Instead we continue to waste billions in tax cuts - most of the Trump tax cuts are being spent by corporations on stock buy backs. They are not doing capex and they are not passing it along to employees. When the economy turns, the market loses are going to be savage and all that tax money spent on buybacks is going to evaporate. At least with infrastructure spending you are left with the roads and bridges, something tangible that adds productivity potential. Oh well, we are going to do this all over again.
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/10/17215440/deficits-rising-congressional-budget-office-ceo-debate
I agree on that point ,every war since WW2 was probably a mistake for US to get involved. And tax cuts while in deficit make no fiscal sense long term. Its worth to note that the Democrats insisted on plenty of their own pork loaded into the last budget in order to vote for it ,ballooning the final numbers. ,so no fiscal responsibility there either. Both parties are spending us into ruin ,only thing different is the agendas.
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
The deficit and the national debt are two entirely different things. Increases in spending (wars, welfare...corp/social, unfunded liabilities, health care..ect) all of that has been done over and over for the last 2 decades. Both R's and D's are to blame.
Bush doubled the national debt. Obama doubled the national debt (2 fold as much as Bush). We will see that Trumps plan does, but I certainly like tax cuts. Americans keeping more money they earn? Never a bad thing.
But who really doubled the national debt? Congress approves spending increases. Now was are hitting more debt limits, not because we don't take in enough revenue, but because there is no limit to how much the government machine can spend. If we were written a check for 50 trillion today, it would all be gone tomorrow and we would still have our debt.
To think that tax cuts for the American people is the cause (as if we are to blame) for the governments massive national debt is not true.
The fed controlling the value of our money instead of individuals/market controlling the value of our money, should make every American take pause. Our future will always be more secure (sometimes volatile) when we control our future, not someone else that thinks they know better.
Bush doubled the national debt. Obama doubled the national debt (2 fold as much as Bush). We will see that Trumps plan does, but I certainly like tax cuts. Americans keeping more money they earn? Never a bad thing.
But who really doubled the national debt? Congress approves spending increases. Now was are hitting more debt limits, not because we don't take in enough revenue, but because there is no limit to how much the government machine can spend. If we were written a check for 50 trillion today, it would all be gone tomorrow and we would still have our debt.
To think that tax cuts for the American people is the cause (as if we are to blame) for the governments massive national debt is not true.
The fed controlling the value of our money instead of individuals/market controlling the value of our money, should make every American take pause. Our future will always be more secure (sometimes volatile) when we control our future, not someone else that thinks they know better.
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
Tons of companies are investing and tons are giving back to employees. Never mind the fact that the money was not the governments in the first place. When you say "we continue to waste billions on tax cuts", that money goes into people pockets and it was theirs in the first place. How could that be a waste when people will invest, spend and save? It isn't my fault the government can't balance a checkbook. I earn my money
As a salesman in many (if not all) industries, places are investing like crazy. It is a good time to sell automation.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Exactly. The second you hear someone claim that a tax cut is a waste of money, you can immediately ignore everything else they have to say. What a distorted line of thinking...
Its not the tax cuts, but the increases in spending at the same time that make little sense. Unless Deficits and debt dont,matter. That is a subject for discussion in itself. Id like to know how the members here feel about all the debt and borrowing. And how long they think we can go on at this rate.
Last edited:
been goin on since the big one
WWII got stick this in though "The budget moved from a $734 million surplus in fiscal year 1929 to a $2.7 billiondeficit in fiscal year 1932. President Herbert Hoover initially regarded deficits as a short-term necessity while the economy underwent correction." then there is this (broken link removed to http://rooseveltinstitute.org/history-lessons-deficit/)
Last edited:
So you like the tax cuts even though it has raised the debt? It is going to be close to $900 billion for the fiscal year ending in September.
If you like the tax cuts so much, then you really can't complain about federal deficits and debt. You just care about paying as little taxes as possible, even if that means the federal gov't taking out more debt to pay for them.
That's what I don't get, you complain about the federal debt, and then advocate tax cuts that grow the federal debt.
If you truly cared about the federal debt, a much more sensible position would have been to advocate for a continuation of the Obama era tax rates (or even go back to the tax rates before the Bush tax cuts), and a continuation of the 2013 sequester budget deal that would have saved $1.5 trillion over 10 years.
I am just pointing out that your positions contradict.
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
Yes. Tax cuts are always good.
My positions are not in contradiction at all. You believe we are in this mess because of not enough taxation. I believe we are in this mess because of too much needless spending.
Here is a snipped of our budget from Wiki. See how much it is increasing?
![[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/228/228802-c78f4cf1d551179c20e15c9afb530d7a.jpg?hash=_0JG3BUY-W "[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????")
Last edited by a moderator:
The deficit would fix itself if the Govt would simply freeze spending at current rates. Revenue would quickly catch up. Not only wont they do that ,they wont even address the RATE of increased spending.
Unfortunately history shows us that tax cuts are not always good. Infact they are usually bad and they have never paid for themselves. But i do agree the biggest part of the problem is in spending. And a large portion of that spending is on wars that we have no way of winning and the absurdly bloated defense budget. And now it is proposed we add another branch to the military????
Its insane . And what are we getting in return for these wars beside thousands of dead and crippled american young people. And trillions in debt. Plus the US always feels the need to rebuild everything it blows up then blows it up again. The ongoing cost of those last few wars are not even included in that $700B defense budget. So probably closer to a Trillion a year that figured in. Are they also figuring in the lifetime cost of supporting crippled soldiers and their families? Probably not. Our biggest threat is probably China and they just have to wait until we go completely broke trying to police the world, to move into the lead.
And the unfunded prescription drug program was both a mess and a bit hit on the budget.
As are the unfunded parts of obamacare,the premium subsidy program as well as the medicaid expansion. Expected to add trillions. So once again, both parties running up debt.
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
People keeping what they earn is always good for the American people...which is (quite frankly) all that matters. More important than budgets/deficits, history has shown that liberty and personal freedom are not compatible with bloated governments. They are briefly compatible, but not in the long-term.
Totally agree in military spending. We can keep a very strong military with the troops at home, other than very strategic bases. Everyone is clamoring to the idea that we have to go bomb everyone to keep safe. The notion is absurd.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised when the defense contractors are heavily financing campaigns for both D's and R's.
If the fed wasn't able to print money, we wouldn't be able to finance any of these wars. It is no coincidence that the age of continual war coincides with the age of endless debt.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Your use of “good” and “bad” is based on a lot of unclassified assumptions. Good for who? Bad for what?
Government is insanely wasteful, the less money passing thru their hands, generally the better it is for the tax-paying citizens. My job is very dependent on military spending, but I’m also the first to agree that they have a unique way of finding the most expensive possible way of accomplishing their goals. Again, on the too-simplistic “good” and “bad” characterization, that’s good for me and bad for you.
History has shown us that tax cuts le as d to short term gains causeing a bubble which is unsustainable. That is what happened after the reagan tax cuts and the bush ones. But i am sure it will be different this time
Last edited:
You are looking at the spending numbers without pointing out how they relate to GDP. As GDP grows, so does government spending .
Looking at historical Federal spending as % of GDP, like the St. Louis Fed does here, you can see that spending is holding a tight range and not moving much beyond that range.
![[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/228/228836-e6a58afb31bfc90911937fb78068a4c7.jpg?hash=l0RVfmMtRi "[Hearth.com] got to love Mass government??????")
You make it sound like Federal spending is out of control when it is not. It is well within historical range, providing the services that help keep society safe, stable and prospering. It is the same Federal government that has overseen the greatest economic growth, technological advances and wealth creation in human history.
The chart has no relation to accumulated debt. How do you suppose the 21T and rising will ever even begin to start going down ,when even in prosperous times it still goes up ,and in recession it explodes. More likely we will soon be paying $1 Trillion a year in interest alone ,which is 1/4 of the entire Federal budget. It Eventually(if its not corrected) interest will consume every dollar the taken in that not borrowed or printed. Interest on this debt is the fastest rising Govt expenditure. ID be interested in your solution to this scenario.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/opinions/trillion-dollar-debt-interest-opinion-macguineas/index.html
sportbikerider78
Minister of Fire
It absolutely is out of control. When your government is dropping $1M bombs to kill a guy in a desert that makes $1/day, then delivering entire skids of $100 bills to say "sorry", then the pentagon 'loses' hundreds of billions with zero accountability...you got a problem.
Couple of points.
1) GDP increases with government spending. Government spending makes GDP increase, as the spending of tax money to buy anything is spending.
2) As the capitalist machine makes more money making goods, exporting goods, why does that mean the government needs to spend more? Let's say I make sneakers. Last year I made 100M sneakers. This year I hire 20 more employees and make 200M sneakers. How exactly did the government help me make sneakers?
3) The federal government didn't foster growth in the economy like some grandfatherly figure that helps private enterprise. I don't know where you create these ideas from. The federal government does nothing but stagnate growth by wrapping everything in expense, red tape, and overly burdensome regulations. Individuals have thrived by sheer grit and determination despite government regulation/taxation, not because of it.
The founding fathers created guidelines for a government that has fostered an incredible country. However, they created a very, very limited government...which is not what we have today.
- Status
