Got a leaf (the car, not from a tree)

[Slow1]

Realistically, I'm a year or two out from buying. I think this market segment is going to have many more choices by then.

I certainly hope that there are. My hope is that we'll have a good electric/hybrid solution available to replace our minivan. We have 6 in our family so we need something with more seatbelts than the standard sedan/car. I read somewhere that there may be some sort of minivan type vehicle in the next couple years (I think it was the Town and Country).

t you will do a LOT better with battery life than CA folks with the 2011 battery.

Hoping for the best. Reading on the 'issues' it does seem mostly to be a southern US problem. I don't know if that is just because fewer were sold up in this area or really due to the heat etc. I also don't see a lot of info for 2012 or any for 2013 model years (I'd think there would be something if there were).

I also suspect that Nissan may have modified their battery indicators between those years too. I've been told by my local dealer's "Expert" that at full charge the car is not at full chemical charge i.e. risk of overcharge/damage from sitting at 100% is reduced/eliminated. Perhaps this will help too... In any case I'm not going to worry about it now - I'll just enjoy the car and see what happens when it does. For now the only thing bugging me is seeing my power usage double at the house.

Oh an another thing - I did find out that charging at 240 is in fact more 'efficient' than 120. Apparently whenever the leaf charges there is about a 300watt overhead so 120v falls into the 75-80% efficiency (I.e. over 20% of the energy from the wall is 'lost') but this 'loss' falls to about 10% when charging at full 6Kw rate.

 

[begreen]

Choices should improve. In 2016 VW will be introducing the 7 passenger CrossBlue. It will be a generator hybrid with 661 mile overall range and about 14 mile electric range. 4WD will be accomplished with a large electric motor on the rear wheels and smaller one up front. Genset will be diesel or gas. Mitsubishi is now selling a similar Outlander in Japan, Australia and Europe where it has been a hit. It gets >60mpg and has a 30+ mile electric range. Chevy is rumored to be working on a similar crossover with Volt drive.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/volkswagen-crossblue-concept-prototype-drive-review
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/vehicles/outlander-phev

 

[Where2]

Choices should improve. In 2016 VW will be introducing the 7 passenger CrossBlue.

As a loyal VW owner, I still won't hold my breath waiting for the TDI version of the CrossBlue. I'd venture to guess if it ever shows up, it's price tag will be upward of what the old V-10 TDI used to cost in the Touareg. In comparison to the cost of a Leaf, I'd say it'll cost about what two basic leaves and a family pack of annual passes to Disney are worth... The 661 mile range would be nice, but I already get that with the ten year old VW TDI wagon in my driveway, if I just drive in the city.

 

[Slow1]

I hear you. There are a lot of promising 'maybe' vehicles out there. I'm sure the marketing folks at various companies look at the reactions to their prototype vehicles to help decide if there is enough demand to justify the development. Those of us who are basically early adopters are likely to get more excited than the rest of the general population, but the real profits are not made selling to early adopters.

I do take heart in seeing more movement in these early prototypes towards stronger hybrid designs as well as more plug in options. If nothing else, perhaps it will encourage businesses to install more ESVEs. Then businesses need to see the return on them too - few will actually do it just to be nice. On that front, I know we've frequented businesses near the one public ESVE in our town more since buying the car. Discovered a nice frozen yogurt place there as well as the restaurants we already knew about but hadn't visited in a while. Not exactly saving myself any money, heh. Wish there were some near places we go more regularly - i.e. grocery store or home depot or heck, even McDonalds. But I suppose it takes a LOT of extra burgers to pay for the install alone....

 

[woodgeek]

It helps that the price of EVSEs is dropping. When EVs get popular, many will prob have 40kWh+ packs, and will want >10 kW EVSEs. MAybe we should not build out a ton of smaller ones.

 

[Slow1]

It helps that the price of EVSEs is dropping. When EVs get popular, many will prob have 40kWh+ packs, and will want >10 kW EVSEs. MAybe we should not build out a ton of smaller ones.

That is an interesting question to ponder. While I agree that larger batteries etc will come and the desire to charge faster will grow I think it really depends on the intent of the installed EVSE.

For example, on major roadways (highways etc) where the use case of the EVSE is to "charge and go long way to next charger" having the fastest EVSE available is a good idea to minimize the stopover (i.e. stick your DC fast chargers there). Then the use case of a long road trip is better handled.

However, if the use case is more local then I could see the argument for many smaller EVSE installs that basically provide a charge at a rate to encourage folks to utilize a business and get a bit of a charge. Example - if I am driving locally and make 3 stops a few miles from each other and could plug in at each then a slow charger is fine - i.e. assume each stop is 5 miles from the next and it makes for a loop (20 miles total), then if I get 5 miles at each stop I should be fine/happy. Assume those stops are 30 minutes on average than a 6Kw L2 charger at each would well make up for my usage. The power draw then from each business (presumably the ones providing power) would be minimized and it is more likely to be used by customers. My assumption here is that car owners primarily charge at home and only add while out to keep moving to other local destinations.

Personally, I like the idea of charging where I plan to be anyway (i.e. at the grocery store) rather than go somewhere specific and 'fill up' as I wait (the gas station model).

Perhaps this is another change of mindset for drivers - long rang is critical between fill-ups if you have limited locations to fill, but if you can 'top off wherever you are' then longer range becomes less important until you have to go far between stops...

 

[woodgeek]

It will be interesting to see how it shakes out. I am currently of the opinion that there is probably a 'sweet spot' at around a 150 mile range. If battery cycle lifetimes are ~1000 full depth cycles, that works out to a 150,000 miles for a battery, is conveniently larger than most peoples' daily drive needs (allowing plenty of margin for heat and AC and extreme cold and battery age).

In contrast, we have 75 mile range EVs, which are very useful, but which lack that margin, and the battery will likely be mostly shot before 100k miles, while the rest of the car is in very solid shape (of course, it can be swapped for new, prob for $2-3k when the time comes).

An EV with near future battery tech and Tesla-like range (250 miles) will have to be a lot more expensive and muscular to pull the heavy battery around while maintaining good performance, the battery will still have useful life even when the rich owner is 'tired' of the car (>150k miles) or its styling. I think they will remain a luxury niche relative to the (currently not available) 150 mile EV.

A 20 minute fast charge every couple hours (in a 150 mile EV) is no bigs on a road trip, nearly consistent with snack and potty breaks, versus in our EVs, stopping every 50 miles or 45 minutes or so. Especially if you only have to stop once or twice on a 250 mile trip, versus 4 times for the current leaf.

So, the sweet spot for QC systems is to do 50 kWh batteries in 20 minutes....150 kW. EV SUVs (shudder) would need something more like 80 kWh and 250 kW (shudder).

 

[Slow1]

All excellent points. I agree that getting to 150+ mile range (with QC network to support) will be necessary for wide adoption of EVs for long distance driving.
I suppose I'm being simple minded thinking about local use, but I have to imagine that local use is the main way that most folks use their vehicles with only the occasional long distance drive. Given this, I think the current range is likely good enough for most folks - even if they don't realize it. It is interesting how many folks when I talk about the car and they learn the range immediately think of a need to drive farther and ask about it... while I can't say we never drive more than 80 miles in a day, I can say it is relatively rare. Kind of like an interview I saw with an EV driver in LA - he reported a lot of folks ask "what if you want to drive to Vegas" as if it is a daily event... his response was "I've never done that in any car, how often do you go there?"

And another note - one has to change their thinking to allow for using the whole range; in our gas cars we rarely let the tank get below 1/4 full. We're adjusting quite well to the idea of arriving home with less than 10% remaining - and won't panic even if at 5%.

 

[woodgeek]

I agree completely. 90% of our driving is <50 miles, and 10% is over 100 miles. I (obviously) agree with you about the utility of the existing Leaf. But it does end up being a second car for some suburbanites (with typical or shorter commutes), or a first car for urban types, and roadtrips are, for the moment a PITA. And there are driving conditions (highway, cold, topo, old battery) where the above utility might be impacted. Doubling the range and a QC network will remove these remaining (minor) issues.

The bigger thing comes down to innumeracy. If you are comfortable with numbers, you can estimate/trust your range versus distance and be happy. I think this means most americans are out....and will never be comfortable being anywhere close to running out, or having to do a little computation in their heads.

IOW, innumerate folks will always have range anxiety.

 

[begreen]

The Volt solved these questions nicely for us. We are all electric for 90% of our driving,but not range challenged when we want to head out of town which is maybe 4-5 times a year. No range anxiety and I don't have to plan my trip around the car.

 

[Slow1]

I have to admit that if the Volt had 5 seatbelts I likely would have bought one given a decent deal. With 4 kids, we rather have to be able to have that extra seat much of the time - like anytime I"m at work and the wife is carting kids about

I do like the all electric too though - a bit less complex on the maintenance schedule although time will tell just what does break in these cars.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that would be a challenge for sure. We are sort of empty nesters now. More than 4 is a rare situation for us and we have a Eurovan that seats 7 if need be like when company arrives.

 

[BrotherBart]

I can hear the designers now. "First it was not enough cup holders. Now not enough seat belts. What next..."

 

[Slow1]

I can hear the designers now. "First it was not enough cup holders. Now not enough seat belts. What next..."

I do have to laugh on this one. One of my wife's first complaints was the cup holders are too small for her water bottle. Go figure.

Too bad it isn't like the old days when we could just pile people into the car without regard to seatbelts eh?

Having to have a larger vehicle is definitely one of the costs of a large family. Our "family" car is a Toyota minivan that seats 8 which allows us to pick up grandparents and truck everyone around. It has just over 150K miles on it - I do wonder if it will last long enough to get a plug-in to replace it

 

[semipro]

I agree completely. 90% of our driving is <50 miles, and 10% is over 100 miles. I (obviously) agree with you about the utility of the existing Leaf. But it does end up being a second car for some suburbanites (with typical or shorter commutes), or a first car for urban types, and roadtrips are, for the moment a PITA. And there are driving conditions (highway, cold, topo, old battery) where the above utility might be impacted. Doubling the range and a QC network will remove these remaining (minor) issues.

If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.

 

[CaptSpiff]

This Trailer Tender would be uninteresting were it not for the Reverse Wheel feature. I think 99% of car drivers dread the thought of having to backup with a trailer.

With this overcome. it seems like a solution to long range EV travel. And I can see commercial rest stops along Interstates renting these for a 200 mile trip.

Could a $25 one-way rental fee support the business model?

I wonder how large a 50 to 75 KWh tender would be?

 

[woodgeek]

If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.
View attachment 135446
http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.

Ugh. What a horrible idea. I think by the time EVs take off there will be no market for such ridiculousness. Decent range and QuickCharge and you're done. How long does it take me to find, attach, and pay for this system versus a QC stop or two while the kinder are in the bathroom?

I don't see how this can even be connected to any EVs I know of, which lock out propulsion during the charging cycle for obvious safety reasons.

 

[CaptSpiff]

Ugh. What a horrible idea. I think by the time EVs take off there will be no market for such ridiculousness. Decent range and QuickCharge and you're done. How long does it take me to find, attach, and pay for this system versus a QC stop or two while the kinder are in the bathroom?

I wish for what you wish, but reality seems to be meandering in a different (or much slower) direction.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/toyota-and-nissan-choose-different-green-car-paths

I don't see how this can even be connected to any EVs I know of, which lock out propulsion during the charging cycle for obvious safety reasons.

I don't think there's any way to make a Tender work with the present EV's. But the article above forecasts a slow slog of EV acceptance thru 2020, which makes me think we are not looking at the final designs.

I have an 03 Avalon (127K) and an 04 F150 (84K) in the driveway. I'm just beginning to look at replacing the Toyota, and I'm trying to get comfortable with the EV concept. The commute of 43mi RT says it's perfect. Problem is my LD drives annually: 4 to Albany (200 mi oneway), 8-10 to Poconos (175 mi oneway), and 6-8 to VT (275 mi one way), which will likely continue. I'm toying with getting a 3rd car, but frugality is fighting me. Looks like I'm heading toward a Hybrid or another highway cruiser.

Hoping for a brighter EV future.

 

[woodgeek]

I read that article a bit differently....sales growth post launch for the Leaf has so far exceeded that of the Prius, and it went on to be one of the most popular cars in the world. I get that Toyota is passing on the Li-battery EV concept, but as EVs grow, they will eat into Prius (and other hybrid) sales from the 'efficient/green' side, while conventional cars will eat its share from the cost side as ICE vehicles evolve. Indeed, conventional hybrid sales growth has slowed over the last couple years.

 

[Slow1]

Interesting looking at the specs for that e-NV200 van of Nissan's. Battery etc look to be basically the same as the Leaf (hmm... economy of scale anyone?). Stick a 3rd row in there and I'd consider it for my family vehicle as we'd be able to fit all 6 in it. I wonder if such a vehicle could sell.

I'm surprised, however, that they don't put a larger battery pack in it - but that must be a cost issue. I wonder what the "normal" driving distance is for local delivery companies? I can't imagine that UPS drivers drive less than 80 miles a day - this doesn't seem to meet that need too well. Maybe the local flower shop?

 

[begreen]

If only this sort of implementation of a tag-along fuel powered generator wasn't so unwieldy. Its really a shame that cars like the Volt have to haul around an engine when its unneeded most of the time.
View attachment 135446
http://www.autoweek.com/article/car-news/ep-tender-could-give-electric-cars-unlimited-range
Edit: This just got me to thinking how much I'd like an EV pickup that I could throw a generator into the bed of.

For a lot of folks the genset is needed daily when their round trip commute exceeds 40 miles. I like the concept of the Volt. Often we will head into Seattle and have a change of plans that exceeds our electric range. No big deal at all with a portable genset. Also, the Volt is an excellent highway car. It is a smoother rider than the shorter wheelbase EVs I test drove and significantly better than our Prius was. Overall I think they got it right with a lot of the core features on this car in spite of some ergonomic failures.

 

[Slow1]

For a lot of folks the genset is needed daily when their round trip commute exceeds 40 miles. I like the concept of the Volt. Often we will head into Seattle and have a change of plans that exceeds our electric range. No big deal at all with a portable genset. Also, the Volt is an excellent highway car. It is a smoother rider than the shorter wheelbase EVs I test drove and significantly better than our Prius was. Overall I think they got it right with a lot of the core features on this car in spite of some ergonomic failures.

Sure would be nice if they would add a 240v AC out plug so that in emergencies you could plug it into the house. I know, that would result in folks leaving the car running in the garage and killing themselves - too much liability. However, it would be a nice additional value in my opinion. I just installed a generator that I hope never to need, would rather drive it around and keep it running that way ha!

 

[woodgeek]

Realistically, you can get a 1500 Watt pure sine inverter and cables for <$300, that the Volt could run indefinitely (from gas) in the driveway, or that the Leaf could run for 15 kWh, and then get recharged at the nearest Chademo charger. If you want 240V, get a $30 step up transformer.

 

[Slow1]

I understand all that - the thought though would be that one could pull a lot more power from the generator part of the car and possibly power most of a home with the right connection. Just pulling from the 12v battery and having the car recharge it is all fine and well, but there could be a better path.

 

[DBoon]

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen in a long time...