Goodbye to EPA exempt woodstoves

[BrotherBart]

Is this the stove?

 

[CheapBassTurd]

Bartdudesir,
That is exactly the model. Is this a way of telling me it's only
good for a mailbox??? Ouch.

Cheeeeeeeeeeeap

Edit: Looking at the size of the mailbox for comparison our unit is much larger.

 

[BrotherBart]

That is the large rural mailbox.

 

[Smoked]

I think there needs to be a grams per hour/ cu. ft. ratio. Or maybe a ratio for GPH/BTU output but if only GPH, smaller stoves should be better if efficiency is the same. I like being cleaner. I try very hard to burn mine right for safety and for my neighbors but government needs to be smart too! I know, what am I thinking...

 

[bholler]

That is exactly the model. Is this a way of telling me it's only
good for a mailbox??? Ouch.

I am sorry but that stove i believe is the worst stove made today and you could not pay me to burn one in my house

 

[jatoxico]

Boy, tough crowd eh @CheapBassTurd ? Guys are funnin' ya but the truth is several folks have had those here and after one or two seasons changed them out because they are tough to control. Have you installed it yet? Give us an idea where it's going and your install (plan?).

 

[bholler]

Guys are funnin' ya

No i am afraid i am not those things seriously scare me

 

[firefighterjake]

Definitely in the learning curve here.
Me n' mama just picked up a United States Stove #2421 (Chinese casting) that was WAY on sale
a few weeks ago. Listed as EPA exempt under method 28A, whatever that is. Did I mention learning
curve? The "pig" is a two burner potbelly three feet deep, 20" wide, 22" height. The internal size will
come down with the addition of the base slab and side bricks.
The main thing is those pesky 500+ dollar monthly bills just to be warm. For $125 a week savings I'll
be happy to do the work in bringing down our costs. (She and I both work full time positions and just
make the bills as it is.)
This why peeps and myself call me the Cheapster. lol
I have SO much to learn before blowing the house up, and it looks like everything I need is here.
Great site, fellas!

There's being "cheap" and being "frugal" . . . and there can be a difference.

As mentioned, many folks who have had these stoves have not been happy with the lack of control and have replaced them within a short time with something that burns less wood and is more controllable . . . Englander and its line of sister stoves are often favored by folks looking for an affordable, decent stove at a good price point.

 

[CheapBassTurd]

Thanks for the "welcome" gents.

I noticed there was no Introduction page.

We just got the thing cuz it was big and on sale at Tractor for $300 (US). Been wanting
a woodstove every time we see that 500+ dollar heating bill every month every winter.

If this thing is tough to control I'll probably fab a smaller intake as I saw the thing has a
big draw, even with the slider shut.

We're doing the corner of the living room close to the center of the house with stoneboard
replacing the sheetrock with molded stone fascia to absorb and radiate heat. We have two
wind machnes and ceiling fans to move the air, as well as running the furnace blower. The
main thing is "Cheap" heat, and in one of our 4 day power outages to be warm and be able to
cook up here in farm and wooded country. Going with all straight pipe for easy cleaning.

Thanks again,
CheapMark

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the "welcome" gents.

Welcome and i am not trying to be a jerk but they are dangerous stoves

If this thing is tough to control I'll probably fab a smaller intake as I saw the thing has a
big draw, even with the slider shut.

The problems are the leaky seams poor fitting top and very poor quality castings that are very prone to cracking. I have seen way to many of them with cracks through the entire side panel to ever trust one.

We're doing the corner of the living room close to the center of the house with stoneboard
replacing the sheetrock with molded stone fascia to absorb and radiate heat. We have two
wind machnes and ceiling fans to move the air, as well as running the furnace blower. The
main thing is "Cheap" heat, and in one of our 4 day power outages to be warm and be able to
cook up here in farm and wooded country. Going with all straight pipe for easy cleaning.

Make sure you follow proper clearances it needs allot of clearance and that stove behind it does not make that wall non combustible you still need clearance from it. Also make sure you use the proper chimney pipe and all of the required fittings for it.

 

[CheapBassTurd]

Holler,
Good points. We're using the 1" ceramic spacers between the stone wallboard
and the studs per the instructions. The pig will still be out over a foot, rather than
the three feet required with regular sheetrock. The piping is as required by our
homeowners insurance as well as the instruction book.

Being a foundry guy 17 years, 12 in the testing lab, my pre-fessional opinion is
that the casting (junk) is little more than melted together scrap metal in a poorly made mold.
There's two fissures, and a ton of nitrogen pinholing in the surface of the thing, and I can already
see the weak points that a crack can propagate from. All that aside, me n' mama chose
the unit by price, and it looks like the rustic decor in the shanty. I'm figuring it will hold
together with good bricks and even heating of the metal. Felt thick enough to hold up
to many cycles. Now I'm second guessing and wishing we got one of the better units
n' just spent the extra few hundred bux in the beginning. My fault for buying before doing
some homework. Gonna run it at least this season. Performance and appetite report to follow.

 

[firefighterjake]

Holler,
Good points. We're using the 1" ceramic spacers between the stone wallboard
and the studs per the instructions. The pig will still be out over a foot, rather than
the three feet required with regular sheetrock. The piping is as required by our
homeowners insurance as well as the instruction book.

Being a foundry guy 17 years, 12 in the testing lab, my pre-fessional opinion is
that the casting (junk) is little more than melted together scrap metal in a poorly made mold.
There's two fissures, and a ton of nitrogen pinholing in the surface of the thing, and I can already
see the weak points that a crack can propagate from. All that aside, me n' mama chose
the unit by price, and it looks like the rustic decor in the shanty. I'm figuring it will hold
together with good bricks and even heating of the metal. Felt thick enough to hold up
to many cycles. Now I'm second guessing and wishing we got one of the better units
n' just spent the extra few hundred bux in the beginning. My fault for buying before doing
some homework. Gonna run it at least this season. Performance and appetite report to follow.

You are not the first to buy a woodstove based on looks and price . . . and certainly will not be the last. As long it gets you by and you can burn safely . . . feel free to ask questions as you go though . . . folks here are pretty darned smart . . . well most folks . . . I don't speak for myself.

 

[jatoxico]

My fault for buying before doing
some homework. Gonna run it at least this season. Performance and appetite report to follow.

This could be a good year to pick up a better stove in the off season with oil and gas prices being what they are. A little research up front so you don't have to re-do much if/when that time comes e.g. stove pipe wise etc since that stuff ain't cheap and you don't want to have to replace it if you don't have to.

Englander from HD can be had pretty cheap (I know you like that word) and is a heating beast (NC30). I think some have gotten for like $650. Drolet is another well made but inexpensive line as well. Start a thread w/ description and pics of your install, much help here.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Reminds me of auto manufacturers. Back in 1975, they complained mightily how difficult and expensive it would be to design cars that would meet a corporate average fuel efficiency (CAFE) of 18 mpg by 1978. In 2011, the standard was 30.2 for cars and they were meeting it just fine. Now they're worried about all-electric vehicles... But folks can still drive their 1975 Chevy Vegas as long as they want!

We are already paying for the price of electric vehicles as auto manufacturers are required to make a certain percentage of their total sales electric. This makes them very expensive to make in small quantities as the market does not want them in the quantity they are being force onto the market. And no one would buy them for what they really cost to make. That means we eat the price when we buy the other cars of that maker since they have to maintain profits to stay in business.

The market needs to decide what people drive, not a politician or director of the EPA. People want cars that get great mileage. How come I can't go buy 20 different models of turbo diesels that get 40+mpg like in Europe? The answer is EPA regulations and taxes which are about 25% more on diesel than gas.

I don't in any way believe that environmental issues don't matter. I'm simply saying that when we ask the government to regulate, they regulate the wrong things and we end up paying the bill and the issue doesn't get any better.

I would LOVE to be driving around a mid-sized turbo diesel SUV instead of a 4L V6 that gets 19mpg. I would pay a premium for that for better mileage because I keep cars for a long time.

 

[bholler]

We are already paying for the price of electric vehicles as auto manufacturers are required to make a certain percentage of their total sales electric. This makes them very expensive to make in small quantities as the market does not want them in the quantity they are being force onto the market. And no one would buy them for what they really cost to make. That means we eat the price when we buy the other cars of that maker since they have to maintain profits to stay in business.

yes but electric cars like the better stoves we have now and the high mileage cars we have would not be developed unless the companies were forced to do so. You can make allot more money with out all of that r&d. So most companies would not do it. Where do you think we would be as far a stove tech without the first round of regs? How about gas mileage?

 

[sportbikerider78]

Who says electric cars are the right option? Sure, in cities they might make a great deal of sense, but at least half of Americas population is rural. In most places they are still burning fossil fuels to get that electricity.
If auto manufacturers had the US demand for diesel, they would have poured their own money into development and many cars that do not exist now, would have had a really good chance.
Yes, instead of companies being regulated and told what to do (hybrid/electric), the market demands good mpg cars, and people buy them. Honda Civics were a very popular car even when gas was $1/gallon. People like saving money.

Personally, I don't think the federal and state governments want us to have really good efficient cars. Think about the billions they would lose in tax revenue. It is an outright conflict of interest.

 

[bholler]

Who says electric cars are the right option? Sure, in cities they might make a great deal of sense,

I agree it does not make sense for everyone but for many people they do. So why not develop them. And they have come a long way in a short time so who knows they may make sense for more people in a few years. And yes many places fossil fuels are still being used to make electricity but that is changing also.

If auto manufacturers had the US demand for diesel, they would have poured their own money into development and many cars that do not exist now, would have had a really good chance.

Yes i agree but how is that the govt's fault? That is the market demand there just is not enough demand for diesels now especially after the vw mess i doubt that will change any time soon.

Yes, instead of companies being regulated and told what to do (hybrid/electric), the market demands good mpg cars, and people buy them. Honda Civics were a very popular car even when gas was $1/gallon. People like saving money.

Yes and what drove companies to develop those high mileage gas cars? Our regulations may not have made the original civic so efficient but the Japanese and European ones did.

I agree over regulation can be a bad thing but are you honestly saying that our stoves are not better now than they were before the first round of epa regulations? Do you not think our cars are more efficient safer and more reliable now than they were before the efficiency and safety regulations?

If you really dont like the regulations why dont you go back to driving a 1960"s car and get your self an old fisher and get rid of that evil epa compliant 30nc

 

[georgepds]

We are already paying for the price of electric vehicles as auto manufacturers are required to make a certain percentage of their total sales electric. This makes them very expensive to make in small quantities as the market does not want them in the quantity they are being force onto the market. And no one would buy them for what they really cost to make. ....

FWIIW I worried about small model runs when I bought my gen 2 Chevy volt. Who I thought, will know how to fix them. Turns out that Chevy is using the same power train ( 2 electric motors, one ICE) in the new 2016 Malibu; main difference is no plug and a much smaller battery ( ~1.5 kwh)

So, at least in this case, the electric car technology is being transferred to other model lines. SFAIK, GM runs a profit

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the "welcome" gents.

I noticed there was no Introduction page.

There are two brief intro threads at the top of the page in the title. Note that there is a Forums introduction section too.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/new-forum-hints-and-your-questions-suggestions.9/

 

[georgepds]

Who says electric cars are the right option? Sure, in cities they might make a great deal of sense, but at least half of Americas population is rural. In most places they are still burning fossil fuels to get that electricity.
....

You can see the trade off by zip code here:

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#.Vo1-nU2FPyM

 

[begreen]

FWIIW I worried about small model runs when I bought my gen 2 Chevy volt. Who I thought, will know how to fix them. Turns out that Chevy is using the same power train ( 2 electric motors, one ICE) in the new 2016 Malibu; main difference is no plug and a much smaller battery ( ~1.5 kwh)

So, at least in this case, the electric car technology is being transferred to other model lines. SFAIK, GM runs a profit

This is true with many car manufactures. Can't wait until it finally is incorporated into SUVs, trucks and vans.

(PS: That combo is only with the 2016 Malibu Hybrid. Estimated combined mileage of 47mpg, woo hoo!)

 

[John Ackerly]

i know this is probably going to stir some folks up but...... i have an EPA compliant stove but there were years when i had a home made stove or a barrel stove because i couldn't afford the sometimes outrageous prices the manufacturing company wanted for their EPA rated stove. jmho

There is not that much difference between some EPA certified stoves and exempt ones. The Englander 13NC sells for $600 - $650 and is a pretty decent stove. Second hand EPA certified stoves are more and more common too. If the smoke didn't impact others, regulations wouldn't be needed so much.

 

[begreen]

yes but electric cars like the better stoves we have now and the high mileage cars we have would not be developed unless the companies were forced to do so. You can make allot more money with out all of that r&d. So most companies would not do it. Where do you think we would be as far a stove tech without the first round of regs? How about gas mileage?

City air is way cleaner now since cars have had emissions regulations and they are much safer. Stats back that up very well as do the visuals. Remember LA in the 70s? Our govt. is not perfect, but we have made a lot of progress in many areas in spite of many attempts to thwart them, usually by the corporation(s) most affected by the changes.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I agree it does not make sense for everyone but for many people they do. So why not develop them. And they have come a long way in a short time so who knows they may make sense for more people in a few years. And yes many places fossil fuels are still being used to make electricity but that is changing also.


Yes i agree but how is that the govt's fault? That is the market demand there just is not enough demand for diesels now especially after the vw mess i doubt that will change any time soon.


Yes and what drove companies to develop those high mileage gas cars? Our regulations may not have made the original civic so efficient but the Japanese and European ones did.

I agree over regulation can be a bad thing but are you honestly saying that our stoves are not better now than they were before the first round of epa regulations? Do you not think our cars are more efficient safer and more reliable now than they were before the efficiency and safety regulations?

If you really dont like the regulations why dont you go back to driving a 1960"s car and get your self an old fisher and get rid of that evil epa compliant 30nc

I brought up the comment on diesel, because it is taxed at a higher rate than gas and emission levels set lower than European standard. That discourages people to use it. Which in turn discourages innovation.

If you are making the discussion that innovation does not happen without regulation, you would have a tough time proving that. Competition above all drives innovation and improvements. 50 years of materials science and engineering is not from regulation. People want cleaner and safer cars.

Would the same stove be offered? I'm not sure. I would think that there would be a market for a cleaner stove for people who live in cities and the burbs. People in the country would in turn like burning less wood for the same heat as would everyone else. So yes, I think that more efficient stoves would be created regardless of regulation. Would they be the same? Likely not.

 

[sportbikerider78]

FWIIW I worried about small model runs when I bought my gen 2 Chevy volt. Who I thought, will know how to fix them. Turns out that Chevy is using the same power train ( 2 electric motors, one ICE) in the new 2016 Malibu; main difference is no plug and a much smaller battery ( ~1.5 kwh)

So, at least in this case, the electric car technology is being transferred to other model lines. SFAIK, GM runs a profit

It is widely known that the Volt cost the taxpayer over $250,000 per vehicle made. That is a great deal of money to take from taxpayers who are trying to make ends meet in a tough economy.

I'm not trying to fire you guys up. I'm simply saying that regulation isn't the answer..and none of us win if taxes on everything keep going up.