I believe about 15 years ago there was also a design that buried the heat exchanger/coils..the copper with the gas running through it, hot or cold. I may have an old sales booklet, but haven't looked for it.
Geothermal Cost In Massachusetts area
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Interesting Redox. The water police would never let that fly here in the Great Lakes state. Once the water is out of the well for whatever use it can not be returned to the aquifer. I'd be curious to know just exactly what the parameters of that system are.
Yeah, I'd like to be a fly on the wall during that permit application. I don't think it is code here either. The system I have seen is about 10-15 years old now and just takes domestic water through a solenoid valve and flowmeter and puts it back in the top of the well. It can't run the well dry and the pump is as old as the house. It's like the way a bumblebee isn't supposed to be able to fly, but it apparently works!
I've heard of burying the refigerant line directly in the ground, but never seen it done. The ex-refrigeration mechanic in me shudders to think of the potential problems with it, but in theory, it should be more efficient. If nothing else, it would have to hold a boatload of refrigerant and the thought of a leak makes me cringe. I don't think I'd want to go there!
Just out of curiosity Jerry, what are you using as the heat transfer fluid? You seem to be our resident expert on GSHP systems and I'm just looking for background information. Heat pumps in general have only been around since the mid '70s. Water source heat pumps have been around almost as long, but the genius that thought of burying the HX probably only came up with it in the '90s. The industry is still in its infancy, but the technology is mature enough that I think I would give it a try. Don't let me talk you out of it, bigblue!
Chris
I've heard of burying the refigerant line directly in the ground, but never seen it done. The ex-refrigeration mechanic in me shudders to think of the potential problems with it, but in theory, it should be more efficient. If nothing else, it would have to hold a boatload of refrigerant and the thought of a leak makes me cringe. I don't think I'd want to go there!
Just out of curiosity Jerry, what are you using as the heat transfer fluid? You seem to be our resident expert on GSHP systems and I'm just looking for background information. Heat pumps in general have only been around since the mid '70s. Water source heat pumps have been around almost as long, but the genius that thought of burying the HX probably only came up with it in the '90s. The industry is still in its infancy, but the technology is mature enough that I think I would give it a try. Don't let me talk you out of it, bigblue!
Chris
My closed loop uses water with some additives, antifreeze mostly as I recall. It has never required service or even checking. The, now old, Premier AT 2-speed has a central processor that monitors a number of functions, including flow in the ground loop. It was installed in November 1993. The heating/closed-loop in low speed is rated at 4.3 with a loop temperature of 32 degrees, must be even better under normal conditions. It drops to 3.1 in high speed. These are at 22.4K BTU and 33K BTU respectively. I've looked at the current crop of Waterfunace top-of-the-line, and they are not a big improvement over what I have...suggests when I need a new compressor, that may be what I'll do, not replace the whole "furnace". Nice the ground loop should never need more than a recharge of the fluid.
I found the brochure for the buried copper, it was for US Power. States it uses HCFC-22, and talks about a COP of 3-6+ and SEER oof 12-20+, about the same as my closed loop Waterfurnace.
I found the brochure for the buried copper, it was for US Power. States it uses HCFC-22, and talks about a COP of 3-6+ and SEER oof 12-20+, about the same as my closed loop Waterfurnace.
I have a private 35 acre lake in my front yard and a air to air heat pump.I also just installed a eko boiler and have it tied into my system.I was going to go geothermal but my friend who has one said it uses a lot of electricity.Electric is going up 30% soon.any opinions on pond loops?
A pond loop, if the pond is deep enough, would be about the best. Here I assume the pond isn't at a much lower elevation. Part of the energy used is lifting water.
Geothermal is all about using LESS electricity (power/energy)...I have no idea what your "friend" was trying to tell you. Yes, a geothermal uses more electric power than an oil or NG furnace, but it uses NO oil or NG. In all but very moderated weather the geothermal HP will use much less energy than your air-to-air HP. Given NE PA, there must be at least 3 months of the year that the air-to-air heat pump isn't much better than resistive heat. The geothermal will heat when it is zero degrees outside with the same efficiency as a good air-to-air would do at 45 degrees outside.... here I mean BTU per KWH.
Geothermal is all about using LESS electricity (power/energy)...I have no idea what your "friend" was trying to tell you. Yes, a geothermal uses more electric power than an oil or NG furnace, but it uses NO oil or NG. In all but very moderated weather the geothermal HP will use much less energy than your air-to-air HP. Given NE PA, there must be at least 3 months of the year that the air-to-air heat pump isn't much better than resistive heat. The geothermal will heat when it is zero degrees outside with the same efficiency as a good air-to-air would do at 45 degrees outside.... here I mean BTU per KWH.
I think the lake is a great idea! I don't think you need a loop in the lake, either. Just put a raw water intake somewhere offshore, pump it once through the heat pump and blow it back to the lake. It would even make a nice decorative fountain and could add aeration.
If you already have a heat pump, you are already half there. I would go for a cheap GSHP for the days when you don't feel like feeding the EKO and for cooling. The new heat pump can't use any more electric than the old one did and, I'd bet will counteract that 30% increase.
Chris
If you already have a heat pump, you are already half there. I would go for a cheap GSHP for the days when you don't feel like feeding the EKO and for cooling. The new heat pump can't use any more electric than the old one did and, I'd bet will counteract that 30% increase.
Chris
I'm not sure I follow Redox's suggestions, but yes, there would have to be some kind of a screen to block debris from getting into the loop. Of course, you still need a water heat exchanger type heat pump, not the air-to-air you have, so your "half way there" in my view is you have the duct work and electrical power runs. Any open loop system, should work, as (I assume) the open loop is prepared to pump water around the loop, and given the pond isn't far below, a shallow well pump is all thats needed...properly connected to the HVAC control circuitry.
Yeah, raw water is an issue. You need to keep the trash out of the pump and probably have a stainer somewhere that can screen out the stuff that can clog the HX. A coaxial HX is just a coiled tube that can stand some particulates through it. A plate HX has much closer tolerances and will require a much finer strainer, but not impossible to pull off. A cleanable HX has heads that can be pulled off and brushed out to keep the crap under control. If you have a large body of water, you can pump it directly through the heat pump. It's cheap and effective, assuming you can keep the trash under control. You also have to consider biological growth that can end up in your heat pump and slow down heat transfer. A periodic shot of chlorine bleach usually solves this problem.Many of the larger boats out there have heat pumps that simply draw water from their surrounding waters and blow it back overboard.
Chris
Chris
I have a setup where I use a shallow well pump to pump water up from lake to take care of my landscaping although it's just for garden hoses.I was worried that sprinkler heads might clog.Ineed to find a good screen/filter.With a closed loop system I won't have to worry about freezing issues as much.My hvac guy seems to think water furnance is the best any input?
He also said seer rating differances arn't all that great although I'll get a few more months use vs air to air
Thanks Harry
He also said seer rating differances arn't all that great although I'll get a few more months use vs air to air
Thanks Harry
Maine here - live 25Ft off a flowing river. I am interested in extracting the heat out of that lake water. Some form of heat pump or geothermal???? Suggestions and websites to research????
Thanks
Dave from Maine
Thanks
Dave from Maine
Kemer,
I am a Waterfurnace owner, see my post here and elsewhere on Geothermal.
Many power boats use the lake/river to cool engines, all outboards do as far as I know. There's an efficient heat pump for you, albeit only the engine gets cooled, important that is if you want to keep going. Point: an outboard generates a lot of heat and the lake does a great job of cooling. I've never had my outboard motor cooling system plug up from anything. Of course, it is drawing water from near the top.
I am a Waterfurnace owner, see my post here and elsewhere on Geothermal.
Many power boats use the lake/river to cool engines, all outboards do as far as I know. There's an efficient heat pump for you, albeit only the engine gets cooled, important that is if you want to keep going. Point: an outboard generates a lot of heat and the lake does a great job of cooling. I've never had my outboard motor cooling system plug up from anything. Of course, it is drawing water from near the top.
Jerry, I was referring to the air conditioners on those boats. Most of the big ones that you see are using seawater in a heat pump for air conditioning and heat. It works great until the water you are floating in gets below about 40 degrees or so. Here on the Chesapeake Bay, that usually happens about mid-late December and doesn't change until March.
Just about any natural source of water can be used for cooling. If it consistently stays above 40F, it can also be used for heating. All these applications for water source heat pumps are still relatively new and users with a long track record are few and far between.
I suspect that a flowing stream will tend to drop in temperature as the ambient drops to the point that it may freeze solid in the winter, if it gets cold enough. Most larger bodies of water will have a temperature difference between the top and the bottom. This means that you may have ice on the surface, but have 40 degree water underneath. Can you extract that heat without causing the pond to freeze solid? No one can really say for sure.
My parents have a spring on their property that is providing about 4GPM at 50F year round. I have been thinking about cobbling something together to take advantage of this, but so far, it hasn't been a priority. If I had that large lake on my property, I'd put in some kind of temperature measuring system to see what the temps run at various depths and at various times of year. Above 40 is easy, below 40 you would need to put in a glycol loop. It's more complicated, but not overly expensive.
I'm just thinking out loud here and definitely WAAAY outside the box. If anyone finds any resources, let me know. I'm very interested in this sort of thing.
Chris
Just about any natural source of water can be used for cooling. If it consistently stays above 40F, it can also be used for heating. All these applications for water source heat pumps are still relatively new and users with a long track record are few and far between.
I suspect that a flowing stream will tend to drop in temperature as the ambient drops to the point that it may freeze solid in the winter, if it gets cold enough. Most larger bodies of water will have a temperature difference between the top and the bottom. This means that you may have ice on the surface, but have 40 degree water underneath. Can you extract that heat without causing the pond to freeze solid? No one can really say for sure.
My parents have a spring on their property that is providing about 4GPM at 50F year round. I have been thinking about cobbling something together to take advantage of this, but so far, it hasn't been a priority. If I had that large lake on my property, I'd put in some kind of temperature measuring system to see what the temps run at various depths and at various times of year. Above 40 is easy, below 40 you would need to put in a glycol loop. It's more complicated, but not overly expensive.
I'm just thinking out loud here and definitely WAAAY outside the box. If anyone finds any resources, let me know. I'm very interested in this sort of thing.
Chris
A friend, work colleague, of mine who retired to North Carolina about 20 years ago had a water source/sink heat pump installed. His property had lake front, on a golf course. He didn't have to worry much about freezing weather, but he did have a big cooling need/load. He has since moved in with family and I doubt he remembers much about his past HP experience. In any case, I know of one dating back about 20 years.
Redox,Thanks for the info.I think mapping out the tempature this winter is good idea.I think for what I put into my EKO install I could of had a geo put in but I also have few hundred acres to gather wood from and my brother and I both put in wood boilers together and that made it easier and cheaper.My brother has a constant water sorce also so he could of have done it also.
any way I cant resist high tec stuff and i'm sure there will be one in my future.any info on super deheaters/chillers(I think thats wat there called)
any way I cant resist high tec stuff and i'm sure there will be one in my future.any info on super deheaters/chillers(I think thats wat there called)
Kemer said:
There was a discussion on them a while back in the Green room:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/19490/
I'd love to put in an EKO and a GSHP, but I have to finish paying off the stove and splitter first! I guess it's just the price of progress...
Chris
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