Garn, Froling, or..... Need advice and guidance

[dogwood]

Try this link to the Warmly Yours heat loss calculator. I just tried playing around with it and it looked pretty good. http://www.warmlyyours.com/hlc/room/index_main

Mike

 

[jebatty]

I did a heat loss calc on my new shop when the building was planned and came out with 35-40,000 btuh at -30F. During the last 25 hours I drew heat only from storage, and was able to determine actual btuh with this result:

Ave outside temp: +9F
Ave inside air temp: +57F
Ave floor temp = +61.7F
Storage start: 164F
Storage end: 122F
BTU's drawn: 42 x 1000 x 8.34 = 350,280
BTUH = 14,011

If I keep the building any warmer, it gets too warm to do my shop work. If and when we hit the -30F this winter, it will be interesting to see how close my heat loss calc actually was.

 

[Como]

Could you go back an re calculate using 9 as your low instead of -30?

 

[Tennman]

Here's another data point in your decision process. I'll summarize my story. Went to pick up a new EKO 60 and saw the BioMass 60 with many design advantages, but far less reliability history in the market. Now in second year of operation with a properly installed underground system, I love my system. Night and day from my first year of operation (read my story in the underground sticky). The draft fan, domed upper combustion chamber to reduce smoke, really nice ceramics, door seals, and that wonderful window in the lower door. I just don't know what I'd do without that window into the gassification chamber. The color of that glow (or lack of glow) immediately tells me just about everything. I may or may not add storage later. For me I don't mind tending the boiler and fortunate to have people at home most of the day but really hate starting a new fire. Just me. So at the moment I'm still debating adding storage and where we live our heating season is much shorter than most of the posters here. SO, absolutely glad I went BioMass..... BUT, what I'm learning this season is the down draft design seems to be happier with smaller splits and attention to ashes at both ends of the upper chamber to reduce the occurance of bridging. If I put bigger logs in the upper chamber, the occurance of burning all the fuel around the nozzle (bridging), which is indicated by faint blue smoke, and lower efficiency (cooler exhaust to lower chamber), all happens more frequently. Which requires more splitting and/or more attention... which all boils down to TIME. Knowing what I know now would I go Garn vs the BioMass, EKO, Atmos, etc? I'd probably still go with the BioMass because of our mild and short heating season. BUT if I was 300-400 miles further North I'd probably really like the convenience of chunking in a big ole log and forgetting it for a while and accept the longer payback with the Garn. If you really don't have to worry with splitting as much that's a huge time saver and with integrated storage so much the better/easier. For your point of reference, we're heating about 4800 drafty sf with the 60 sitting in a boiler barn slightly smaller than what you have. Ya got the bucks, seems like all Garn customers are real happy. Since this was a DIYer project, doing modules and in stages let me spread the financial pain. Best Wishes.

 

[BHetrick10]

I think I am going to go the Garn route. Either way the final price would end up close to the same on maybe the Garn less? Storage gets expensive. We dug today for concrete. If things warm up next week we are going to pour a pad for the Boiler shed. I'd ideally like the shed to be 24 x 18 but the little lady said it was talking up to much of the yard. As if the yard is small or something? I have enough grass to mow. Any how the shed is down to 24x 12. It should give me and 5 cord inside if I did my math right. I may only put the four wheeler, and things for dealing with the fire in it and a lean to of the side for wood?

 

[bpirger]

If you want to put a Garn, a 4wheeler, and 5 cord of wood in a 24x12 shed, I sure hope it is at least 3 stories high and you plan to move lots of wood upstairs! A garn is big and will take up considerable room. I think the final dimiensions of my Garn cube (the box around the garn with all the insulation) is about 8' wide, by 9'6" long, and just under 8' high. Remember you have a HX somewhere in this shed (or maybe in the house), you have some other plumbing, you want to be able to access this plumbing, etc.

I could likely fit 2 full cords in the building if I wanted to pack it rather full....but I don't think I could fit the 4wheeler in there, at least not and move around nicely.

Just some thoughts....

 

[BHetrick10]

If you want to put a Garn, a 4wheeler, and 5 cord of wood in a 24x12 shed, I sure hope it is at least 3 stories high and you plan to move lots of wood upstairs! A garn is big and will take up considerable room. I think the final dimiensions of my Garn cube (the box around the garn with all the insulation) is about 8' wide, by 9'6" long, and just under 8' high. Remember you have a HX somewhere in this shed (or maybe in the house), you have some other plumbing, you want to be able to access this plumbing, etc.

I could likely fit 2 full cords in the building if I wanted to pack it rather full....but I don't think I could fit the 4wheeler in there, at least not and move around nicely.

Just some thoughts....

I ment either the four wheeler or wood not both. Needless to say when she went to work the shed got bigger ;-), but only a little . I dug the top soil out of the way. Tomorrow during daylight I am going to stake out the shed and see if I have anymore digging. Took a little while the frost is down about 6-8". The building is 25 x 14 I the garn will be parallel with the 25' side. I am going to leave 3' behind the garn for servicing (Check periodically for water, and exhaust leaks. I figure I should have about 5.5' between the front of the garn and to door. I will mount my equipment on the 5.5' wall opening and could also wrap it around the corner that some of it would be beside the door. Than on the side I should have a 24' x 5' wood storage area. This would give me enough room for 5 cord inside. Off the back side (25' length) of the shed I am going to extend the roof out 10' past the side to keep the rest of the wood under it. I have 4 6" electrical pvc sweeps stubbed up into the shed to run my water lines in. One is for the house one is for the garage and the other two...maybe a pool or hot tub. Never hurts to plan ahead. The one 6" conduit goes from the boiler shed to the garage and comes up through the floor in the garage where my radiant manifold is going to be. It worked out real nice. I don't have to worry about water getting into my PEX insulation. I just pulled the 4" corrugated pipe with the PEX in it right thought the 6" conduit chase.

Where does everyone else keep there four wheeler, cart, log splitter, and other lumbering equipment at?

 

[sdrobertson]

[quote author="BHetrick10" date="1292570886]Just some thoughts....[/quote]

Where does everyone else keep there four wheeler, cart, log splitter, and other lumbering equipment at?[/quote]

I try to keep all that equipment at my house, but it should stay at my father's as he owns most of it

 

[bpirger]

Not sure what you are using for your pex lines, but there is a good sticky on the subject. Beware of the pipe wrapped in a few layers of the bubble wrap. I ended up using the microflex from this warm house...It won't fit inside a 6" conduit...at least not easily, and I don't think at all. I don't know about other stuff.....

Sounds like maybe you have already verified you are all set with this.....

Sounds good! Have you ordered a Garn?

 

[BHetrick10]

The Garn is not ordered yet. I spoke with Jim Saufferer about the Garn last week. They were going to send me a formal quote. I didnt receive it yet to order the Garn.

 

[Como]

There was mention on another thread that they have deals on stock items and a suggestion that prices may change 1/1.

 

[NP ALASKA]

If I knew that the froling would work I think I would go that route. Seems real user friendly and efficient. I am scared of a 10,000 + dollar mistake though. I like how this style of boiler can pick up and go if the house is cold and bypass the storage.

This is what I dont like about the garn. You cant bypass the storage. At the same time that is what makes it a Garn. Real simple just a little less efficient, but it is not as picky as what you feed it.

I was told a Solo 60 may work rated at 198,xxx BTU/hr. They seem to have a good track record?

How are you guys doing the heating calcs?

Thanks for the replies

I was concerned about the money aswell, after studying long nd hard I am looking at the Froling P4 pellet stove whihc is 21K+++ delivered to alaska. Then I have to figure out storage tanks nad install everything. I taking a huge chance with that cash but have looked all over and Froling is strong overseas, lots of installations with minimal probelms. You get waht you pay for, I love my Ford truck but my wifes Toyota has 4 times the miles and my truck has been to the shop 4 times more than her toyota that has never been in the shop just rolled over 80K. BMW and Benz are expensive but run for ever. Again I think its good gamble for me...
Good luck

Regards,

 

[BHetrick10]

I had forgot about this topic. I guess I never really said what route I was taking. Well the Garn showed up on Monday. Now the fun begins. I have a lot of work to do before I fire it.

I was at my uncles for Thanksgiving and were talking about heat. I hope I made the right decision. Seems I could have gotten a nice coal boiler for a lot less money and wouldn't have to worry about finding time to cut, splint, rank wood.

What does everyone think?

I work 60-75 hours a week. Most Saturdays I race. If I don't race I work. Since my garage was built over a year ago I haven't gotten much done. It still isn't insulated or sheeted. I just finished wiring it last week. Its hard to find time right now to do anything and I dont have a wife or kids. Owning your own business ends up being my life.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I think either the Froling or Garn log boilers were the right choice. I personally wouldn't think of buying pellets, I'd just run a condensing gas boiler then, Randy

 

[skfire]

I myself pondered that choice and was all set to go with a garn2000, but the shed, added taxes, ug lines, hx, wet ground/French drains, size/btu need etc, led me to the Froling. Having said that, if I required a multi district heating arrangement and housing the unit was not an issue, the Garn was it.
Now, 2 months into utilizing the Froling , I have only positives to report.
In my limited knowledgable opinion, these two machines are hands down in incredible, so there is no bad choice.

Love looking at the lp tank stuck at 60% since September, only used 20 gals or so,when unplanned DHW make kicks on the lp boiler.
ZERO regrets and all money/hours/days/weeks of work well spent
Good luck with the install and enjoy the fun.
Happy thanksgiving to all
Scott

 

[bpirger]

We are very happy with the Garn. As for time in the day, I hear ya. I built my own house, or am still in the eternal process, and the floors are bare (great for the radiant though), no staple up on the second floor, still have tyvek siding (on my third layer now), the addition/garage/shop is nearly wired, but not yet insulated, etc. I'm sure it took me about 60 hours to plumb up my garn and get it tied in....so for me that was about 4 weekends or so. Between work, the kids, there's only so many hours left...

Get ahead on your wood, yeah right, there's another big time sink. That's what I've been doing lately, trying to get in next years now....