Froling pump short cycling
- Thread starter Caiden
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Im not so sure thats a good idea unless you know every setting of your system and what its set to. I think when you switch the type of hydraulic system when switched changes a bunch of other settings in the software.
chew72, My tanks are about 72" tall and the top tank sensor is at about 58". All my sensors are in 1\2" wells. I purchased the tanks recommended by the supplier. Thanks for the "hysteresis" term. I will look around in the settings to see if I can find that. That is a big problem of mine is understanding what some of the terminology refers to. Thank you for your input.
Mila70, I had a very hard time finding someone to even give me estimates. Heating companies in my area are busy and were not really looking to take on a job of this size. I did finally get 2 estimates. I had the S3 Turbo 50 installed with two 300 gallon tanks (used an existing Boiler mate) and all the recommended controls. I didn't want to cut any corners (which is why I am a little frustrated with my situation now). Both quotes were comparable for equipment. The installer that I chose came highly recommended and is a expert with solid fuels. The cost of just the equipment was about 23K. Piping and fittings and all other necessary equipment with the labor was about another 12K. If I could get to the bottom of the short cycling I would be very happy with the system also. I would say that the 600 gallons of storage would be minimum. I almost went with the 440 gallons and it would have been a stretch to make that work for me. I am heating about 3700 sq. ft. with a fairly tight construction. I hope this helps.
That is interesting. I have 4 sensors as well and my installer put the all in the same tank. The tanks have 4 ports on the side and they are installed top, mid top, mid bottom and bottom. I wonder what the best is?
I was able to catch the cycling. I have the pump to 25% minimum. When it is in "off" the pump comes on at 100%. If the temperature in the boiler or the top tank sensor stays the pump will run for 12 seconds then go to 25%. If either of the temps move to turn the pump off it will restart at 100% again.
Similar self install, Froling 30kw FHG, Two 500 gallon tanks, Heat exchanger for DHW and 50' of insulated line between buildings plus all the the fittings etc $20-22K
I had the same short cycle time on my Froling. As the boiler cools after a burn the pump would kick on and off every few seconds for a long time. I could hear some water hammer in the pipes when it was happening.
I solved it by installing a time delay relay in the wiring for the pump. The relay will not turn off the power to the pump until it sees a prolonged off signal from the boiler. Every time the boiler tries to cycle the pump off then on again it resets the timer in the relay. The timer is adjustable. I think mine is set to wait 2 minutes. Its been 10 years this way with no issues.
I solved it by installing a time delay relay in the wiring for the pump. The relay will not turn off the power to the pump until it sees a prolonged off signal from the boiler. Every time the boiler tries to cycle the pump off then on again it resets the timer in the relay. The timer is adjustable. I think mine is set to wait 2 minutes. Its been 10 years this way with no issues.
Hello Caiden, djbutt, everyone, sorry about raising an old thread but it talks a lot about the issue I have.
We have a Froling T4 wood chip boiler with the H3200 controller. We have it configured to hydraulic mode 4 with four temperature sensors on the buffer tank. The boiler pump is a Wilo with 0 - 10 V linear speed control signal. We also have a motor controlled 3-way valve controlled by the boiler. With the pump speed signal and the valve, the boiler very nicely adjusts the return feed temperature and hot water flow to the buffer tank during the heating cycle.
The boiler runs quite perfectly in heating mode but the pump control misbehaves seriously in standby mode (fire off). The boiler was installed some six years ago and already two boiler circulation pumps have gone broken where I very much suspect the standby mode behaviour.
From the earlier posts I understand a similar issue if not the same concerns specifically hydraulic mode 4 operation. We could change to the simpler two buffer sensor system but I'm afraid we would lose boiler heating power control performance. I've been told the standby mode does not suffer from this pump short cycling but the local support does not seem to be able to figure out how to solve this for hydraulic mode 4, not even with the help from the factory.
Attached a photo of the pump control signal sampled some 20 minutes into standby mode after the heating session. At times the pump is only switched on for less than a second (via the speed signal, power is always on, pump is switched off by the speed signal). This makes no sense already because this pump takes up to 7 seconds to start from speed signal turned on.
We now have actually implemented something similar to what djbutt did to solve the issue (hoping to avoid pump failures in the future). We just cannot control pump power but have to fool the speed signal. We can then avoid switching the pump on an off continuously but this is not a full solution because the boiler tends to keep the 3-way valve closed and only opens it shortly at times. This valve control appears to be similar to explained earlier on the thread, if the boiler temperature exceeds the top buffer tank temperature by about 2 degrees Celsius (some 4 degrees Fahrenheit), the valve starts to open slightly and the pump starts to run (in bursts). However there does not appear to be any hysteresis which makes things even worse.
We have walked through all settings on the manual with our local support and cannot find any parameter really controlling the pump at standby mode. The pump minimum & maximum speed settings do apply for this 0-10V speed controlled pump in heating mode. In standby the max pump speed seems to apply but the pump never enters minimum speed, instead it turns off completely (might use min speed if the buffer tank and the boiler were colder than ever in normal operation). In any case, these settings do not prevent the short cycling even with the speed controlled circulation pump (for which the settings really are for).
I find it very frustrating when Froling advertises this specific hydraulic mode 4 in their brochure, they still do today but do not provide assistance to make it work properly.
Sincerely waiting for comments, NFH
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![[Hearth.com] Froling pump short cycling](/talk/data/attachments/338/338094-3b6df8e519e114d94a3cb051baa57c60.jpg?hash=quYbSVsEbc)
PassionForFire&Water
Minister of Fire
I did not read the full write up here, but unless you have a variable speed pump controlled via 0-10V signal from your Froling boiler the speed setting will NOT do anything for you.
It sounds to me that you need to setup a wider differential band.
It sounds to me that you need to setup a wider differential band.
Thanks for the response (assuming it was for me).
As above, I have a variable speed pump, controlled via 0-10 V signal from the boiler. The speed settings work fine in heating mode but do not help in idle state.
Indeed a proper hysteresis would be necessary at idle state but there is no single hysteresis parameter available for user to adjust, neither for the installer mode. As far as I know, none of the available parameters can be used to reach some hysteresis for the pump control. Seems this is all fixed in the code or only available at some higher level user mode (I don't know if it exists for Froling).
PassionForFire&Water
Minister of Fire
I'm only familiar with Windhager.
Is there a higher level available? SERVIVE level or level for the Froling technician?
You will probably need an access code, or a combination of push buttons to hold at the same time
Is there a higher level available? SERVIVE level or level for the Froling technician?
You will probably need an access code, or a combination of push buttons to hold at the same time
There is a service level access code for Froling technicians but this is well known for customers too. Nothing there that even the official local Froling support can find. If the factory knew a higher access level, I'd assume they should advice the local support/service personnel but I was told "no response from the factory so far".
I was hoping some of the forum members here would have received some guidance from the factory but it seems not.
I self-installed an S3 Turbo with the 3200 controller. It came with old firmware so I updated it to 50.04_5.20 (the latest) and it does not short cycle. The English docs posted on the Froling site for this version are much better, especially after I figured out that releasing a pump means turning it on. Which firmware are you running?
The primary circ is a 0-10V controlled ECM unit from Resideo connected to the hydraulic module. The system is configured as System 4 with 4 storage temp sensors. Boiler protection is provided by a thermostatic mixing valve. I do have the return sensor connected but I haven't seen any way to read it so I'm not sure it's being used. The boiler adjusts the circ speed and burn rate to hold a delta-T of about 20F. The minimum buffer tank pump speed is set to maybe 20%, I'd have to check for sure. I think I set 'mid buffer controller active' to yes. I also set the correct buffer tank volume.
Once all the wood is consumed, the primary circ turns off, the residual heat increases the boiler temp and the circ is run briefly to drop the boiler temp. This might happen twice then it stays off until fired again. I just posted a response to another thread with a plot showing this behavior along with a description of the plot:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/a-question-ive-never-been-able-to-answer.207323/post-2766597
I have seen the circ run once with the boiler in standby but this was probably the pump stall protection which will run the circ for 15 secs at 100% on some unspecified periodic schedule.
I'm glad to hear someone has a system 4 setup working well in standby.
Our base module SW is V 50.04 B 05.18 (18.02.2020), looks like there have been a couple of updates since 2020. I recently managed to contact an expert from the factory but neither our local dealer, nor the factory expert suggested a SW update even if both were aware of our current SW. Sounds like a good idea to try the update.
Not sure if it is a wood-chip boiler issue but our boiler definitely makes use of the return sensor. The return sensor temperature is shown on the boiler screen and also shown at Froling connect remotely. When heating the boiler primarily controls the circulation pump and the mixer to keep the return temperature at 60 degrees Celsius. The mixer and the pump speed are controlled to keep the boiler temperature appropriate, in the range of 75 to 82 degrees Celsius in our case. This all works very well.
I consider it quite normal that the circulation pump would need to run a few times after the boiler enters standby mode but there is no reason to short-cycle the pump (at times the control signal on for one second, one second off, our pump takes 7 seconds to fully start anyway).
Our boiler typically runs twice a day, our Wilo Stratos pump does the stall protection cycle every 24 hours of idle time, meaning the stall protection cycle does not occur in our case.
Your temperature diagram is interesting. How did you obtain it? Do you have some external sensor logging tools or can you log data directly from the boiler interface somehow?
I was going to suggest you check the German forum but it looks like you have already started a thread there.
I'm not convinced it will help but getting your dealer to do the firmware upgrade seems like the best approach if you decide to try it. I'm not sure how the upgrade might affect the current settings and if you'd have to reconfigure all the sensor addresses, etc. I did the upgrade before the first firing of my boiler so this was not a concern. Changing the boiler type and system selection would potentially be very bad since these options change many other settings. You could go through the selection process without changing anything to see how it is set.
Noise or some kind of crosstalk between a sensor and the pump could lead to unusual behavior but it seems like you've investigated this with a scope.
There is one option under pump control that runs 0-10V while the pump remains powered up all the time and another where the power to the pump is turned off and on along with the 0-10V signal. The info below for the PDM mode also applies to the 0-10V mode. Maybe try changing to the same option but with '+valve' added (or removed).
Here are some of my settings that might be of interest (all available in the 5.18 firmware docs but may not show up depending on system selection and other variables):
The data logging for my system is based on an Arduino micro controller and 1-Wire temperature sensors (MAX31820MCR+, similar to the DS18B20). It reads all the sensors every 10 seconds and writes the values to a csv file on an SD card. This data is pasted into an Excel spreadsheet to generate the plot.
The 3200 controller does data logging, I think. The German forum discusses p4d, an open source collection of software that directly interfaces with the 3200 controller via the serial port. It can access log data (or log it directly?), create plots and allows boiler control / setting parameters from what I can tell. It also integrates with other devices like inverters and a weather service. If you run it on a Raspberry Pi for hardware access it can read 1-Wire sensors like I am using. I managed to install p4d on an old laptop but haven't connected it to the boiler yet since the user interface is all in German. I've started translating it to English but have other priorities at the moment.
I'm not convinced it will help but getting your dealer to do the firmware upgrade seems like the best approach if you decide to try it. I'm not sure how the upgrade might affect the current settings and if you'd have to reconfigure all the sensor addresses, etc. I did the upgrade before the first firing of my boiler so this was not a concern. Changing the boiler type and system selection would potentially be very bad since these options change many other settings. You could go through the selection process without changing anything to see how it is set.
Noise or some kind of crosstalk between a sensor and the pump could lead to unusual behavior but it seems like you've investigated this with a scope.
There is one option under pump control that runs 0-10V while the pump remains powered up all the time and another where the power to the pump is turned off and on along with the 0-10V signal. The info below for the PDM mode also applies to the 0-10V mode. Maybe try changing to the same option but with '+valve' added (or removed).
From the way-back department, someone reported that the P2 does not like low-energy pumps. I'm not sure which controller is in the P2 but the +valve option might change your system behavior:
- The heating has a problem with low-energy pumps. Here the leakage current of the thyristor is too high (7mA) so that the pump is constantly switching on and off.
Here are some of my settings that might be of interest (all available in the 5.18 firmware docs but may not show up depending on system selection and other variables):
- Mixer Runtime under Boiler -> Service to make sure it is at least 150s. I don't have this setting but it sounds like it might lead to oscillation if too short.
- Minimum Boiler Temperature To Release All Pumps under Boiler -> Temperatures since the pump should not start if the boiler temp is below this value. Mine is set to 149F / 65C.
- Residual Heat Use under Buffer Tank -> Buffer Tank 01 -> Service since this can make the pump ignore the Min Temp To Release All Pumps value. Mine is set to No but it still cycles the pump a couple of times after the fire goes out.
- Mid Buffer Controller Active under Buffer Tank -> Buffer Tank 01 -> Service since this is involved in pump speed control. Mine is set to Yes.
- Control of Storage Tank Pump under Buffer Tank -> Buffer Tank 01 -> Service. Mine is set to Field 0-10V.
- Minimum Storage Tank Pump Speed under Buffer Tank -> Buffer Tank 01 -> Service. Mine is set to 25%.
- Volume of the Used Buffer Tank under Buffer Tank -> Buffer Tank 01 -> Service .
The data logging for my system is based on an Arduino micro controller and 1-Wire temperature sensors (MAX31820MCR+, similar to the DS18B20). It reads all the sensors every 10 seconds and writes the values to a csv file on an SD card. This data is pasted into an Excel spreadsheet to generate the plot.
The 3200 controller does data logging, I think. The German forum discusses p4d, an open source collection of software that directly interfaces with the 3200 controller via the serial port. It can access log data (or log it directly?), create plots and allows boiler control / setting parameters from what I can tell. It also integrates with other devices like inverters and a weather service. If you run it on a Raspberry Pi for hardware access it can read 1-Wire sensors like I am using. I managed to install p4d on an old laptop but haven't connected it to the boiler yet since the user interface is all in German. I've started translating it to English but have other priorities at the moment.
Thank You OffGridICF for very extensive comments.
Considering SW update affecting configuration/parameter settings, it should not according to our experts but we had the SW updated once and got a few odd changes (That were never fixed but do not seem to affect operation, an example being the flue gas heat exchanger configured in but does not exist. The only drawback seems to be that the display front page does not show flue gas temperature but 0 for the exchanger that does not exist). Also it is not clear to me if only the display (3200) can be updated by the customer or if the core modules get updated at the same time. Can both updates be carried by the boiler owner?
Our system does not have the isolation valve and I guess the 0-10V drive without valve is the correct setting. However, for some odd reason the boiler was configured for 0-10 V plus valve until very recently when our local technician noticed this setting from the parameter file he had from the SW update. I did notice the pump power feed difference but I had never seen the detailed description for power on and off in this mode. My observations match for your description now that I think of it. However, the pump short cycling appeared the same with both settings.
Earlier on I added a fixed 3 V pump speed signal to prevent the pump going on and off rapidly. Now that we changed the pump drive to "no valve", I modified the temporary fix with an RC-delay that keeps the pump drive at the request from the boiler and then gradually goes down if the boiler request remains at zero. This way the pump finally switches off even with the "no valve" setting. I have components to further modify this (still temporary fix) so that the pump AC-delay is shorter, the pump reduces speed faster but then remains at the minimum speed for some 10 to 15 minutes. Most often the short cycling stops within 15 minutes and starts again in an hour or so.
Our hydraulic system module version appears to be FRHYU21A 15.03.2013. Does it mean a version from 2013 was still used at 2019 time when the boiler was delivered? This module does not have the two pump power feed options. Does this mean a triac or a relay drive then? Anyway a very useful reference about the low energy pump drive issues that I had not seen before.
Our mixer run time is set to 150 (matches our mixer model too) and it works very well in heating mode. I thought oscillation would be more likely, at least more critical in heating mode. I don't have any clear picture how the mixer is controlled in standby mode. Obviously the mixer needs to be opened once the pump is activated. Now at the start of the short cycling period, the mixer shortly opens and every time the pump runs shortly. Later on the pump may run a bit longer shots until it turns off for a longer period.
Our Minimum Boiler Temperature To Release All Pumps is set at 60C. On a T4 woodchip boiler this is the default value unlike on most others where it is 65C. In practice our boiler temperature never drops this low. The pump remains off at the start of the heating cycle during ignition until heating mode is entered (roughly out of memory). Our buffer bottom temperature remains well above 65C after fire off through out the few hours where the pump short cycling occurs. I assume then this parameter being ok.
We also have Residual Heat Use set off. I would consider it still fine if the pump activates a few time in standby mode, cooling the boiler a bit to keep the temperature decent relative to the buffer top temperature. I think our boiler sort of tries to do this but instead of smoothly running the circulation pump and opening the mixer a bit for some time, it starts this short cycle phase (that eventually cools the boiler a bit).
I think we don't have the Mid Buffer Controller setting because of hydraulic system 4 being used?
Control of Storage Tank Pump is set to 0-10V now, used to be 0-10V plus valve as explained earlier.
Minimum Storage Tank Pump Speed is set to 30%. The Wilo Stratos pump actually turns on when the speed control signal exceeds 2 V, it runs at minimum speed up to speed control signal level of 3 V and then increases speed linearly. The pump remains on at minimum speed when the speed control signal goes from 3 V down to 1 V and then switches off when the control signal drops below 1 V. There should be a lot of room for noise if it happened to be present and the pump itself has some low pass filtering for the control signal.
I cannot find the Volume of the Used Buffer Tank setting from the boiler menus or from my copy of the H3200 manual. The manual that came with the boiler is version 50.04 -Build 05.15, Touch control version 60.01 build 1.33 but I mostly read a pdf I found from internet with version: "Core module version 50.04 - Build 05.18 | Touch control version 60.01 - Build 01.36".
Our return sensor was installed at the factory to the boiler itself. I thought the return sensor should not be blamed anyway for the standby state operation. Since the boiler return temperature remains above the 60C setpoint, I'd expect it would not trigger pumps off. Some time before the boiler starts again, the buffer bottom may be below 60C and the boiler return too but at this point the boiler top too is at the buffer top or lower temperature and the circulation pump short cycling has already stopped hours before. The boiler stays at standby for about 10 hours.
This 1-wire temperature monitoring system would be very useful. Even better if there was an option to read figures remotely. We have quite a few heating circuit pumps where feed and return temperature readings would be useful.
Our dealer explains that they attach a specific logging device to the boiler. Perhaps the boiler itself has no sufficient memory to store measurements? I have had a quick look at the Holxheizer forum but got a bit lost with their boiler interface, not sure if it works with a T4 and is the project mature already. A proper log for essential parameters with a graph presentation would be useful, not just nice to have.
EDIT: I forgot to comment, I should check the 230 V power feed to the pump. So far I have only been monitoring the speed signal. I just need to check if my cheap PC-oscilloscope withstands mains voltage levels, probably at least with the probe ad 10x attenuation.
Considering SW update affecting configuration/parameter settings, it should not according to our experts but we had the SW updated once and got a few odd changes (That were never fixed but do not seem to affect operation, an example being the flue gas heat exchanger configured in but does not exist. The only drawback seems to be that the display front page does not show flue gas temperature but 0 for the exchanger that does not exist). Also it is not clear to me if only the display (3200) can be updated by the customer or if the core modules get updated at the same time. Can both updates be carried by the boiler owner?
Our system does not have the isolation valve and I guess the 0-10V drive without valve is the correct setting. However, for some odd reason the boiler was configured for 0-10 V plus valve until very recently when our local technician noticed this setting from the parameter file he had from the SW update. I did notice the pump power feed difference but I had never seen the detailed description for power on and off in this mode. My observations match for your description now that I think of it. However, the pump short cycling appeared the same with both settings.
Earlier on I added a fixed 3 V pump speed signal to prevent the pump going on and off rapidly. Now that we changed the pump drive to "no valve", I modified the temporary fix with an RC-delay that keeps the pump drive at the request from the boiler and then gradually goes down if the boiler request remains at zero. This way the pump finally switches off even with the "no valve" setting. I have components to further modify this (still temporary fix) so that the pump AC-delay is shorter, the pump reduces speed faster but then remains at the minimum speed for some 10 to 15 minutes. Most often the short cycling stops within 15 minutes and starts again in an hour or so.
Our hydraulic system module version appears to be FRHYU21A 15.03.2013. Does it mean a version from 2013 was still used at 2019 time when the boiler was delivered? This module does not have the two pump power feed options. Does this mean a triac or a relay drive then? Anyway a very useful reference about the low energy pump drive issues that I had not seen before.
Our mixer run time is set to 150 (matches our mixer model too) and it works very well in heating mode. I thought oscillation would be more likely, at least more critical in heating mode. I don't have any clear picture how the mixer is controlled in standby mode. Obviously the mixer needs to be opened once the pump is activated. Now at the start of the short cycling period, the mixer shortly opens and every time the pump runs shortly. Later on the pump may run a bit longer shots until it turns off for a longer period.
Our Minimum Boiler Temperature To Release All Pumps is set at 60C. On a T4 woodchip boiler this is the default value unlike on most others where it is 65C. In practice our boiler temperature never drops this low. The pump remains off at the start of the heating cycle during ignition until heating mode is entered (roughly out of memory). Our buffer bottom temperature remains well above 65C after fire off through out the few hours where the pump short cycling occurs. I assume then this parameter being ok.
We also have Residual Heat Use set off. I would consider it still fine if the pump activates a few time in standby mode, cooling the boiler a bit to keep the temperature decent relative to the buffer top temperature. I think our boiler sort of tries to do this but instead of smoothly running the circulation pump and opening the mixer a bit for some time, it starts this short cycle phase (that eventually cools the boiler a bit).
I think we don't have the Mid Buffer Controller setting because of hydraulic system 4 being used?
Control of Storage Tank Pump is set to 0-10V now, used to be 0-10V plus valve as explained earlier.
Minimum Storage Tank Pump Speed is set to 30%. The Wilo Stratos pump actually turns on when the speed control signal exceeds 2 V, it runs at minimum speed up to speed control signal level of 3 V and then increases speed linearly. The pump remains on at minimum speed when the speed control signal goes from 3 V down to 1 V and then switches off when the control signal drops below 1 V. There should be a lot of room for noise if it happened to be present and the pump itself has some low pass filtering for the control signal.
I cannot find the Volume of the Used Buffer Tank setting from the boiler menus or from my copy of the H3200 manual. The manual that came with the boiler is version 50.04 -Build 05.15, Touch control version 60.01 build 1.33 but I mostly read a pdf I found from internet with version: "Core module version 50.04 - Build 05.18 | Touch control version 60.01 - Build 01.36".
Our return sensor was installed at the factory to the boiler itself. I thought the return sensor should not be blamed anyway for the standby state operation. Since the boiler return temperature remains above the 60C setpoint, I'd expect it would not trigger pumps off. Some time before the boiler starts again, the buffer bottom may be below 60C and the boiler return too but at this point the boiler top too is at the buffer top or lower temperature and the circulation pump short cycling has already stopped hours before. The boiler stays at standby for about 10 hours.
This 1-wire temperature monitoring system would be very useful. Even better if there was an option to read figures remotely. We have quite a few heating circuit pumps where feed and return temperature readings would be useful.
Our dealer explains that they attach a specific logging device to the boiler. Perhaps the boiler itself has no sufficient memory to store measurements? I have had a quick look at the Holxheizer forum but got a bit lost with their boiler interface, not sure if it works with a T4 and is the project mature already. A proper log for essential parameters with a graph presentation would be useful, not just nice to have.
EDIT: I forgot to comment, I should check the 230 V power feed to the pump. So far I have only been monitoring the speed signal. I just need to check if my cheap PC-oscilloscope withstands mains voltage levels, probably at least with the probe ad 10x attenuation.
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If you want access to all the Froling service manuals, etc., go to froling.com and then User Portal. Create a login if you don't have one. Go to the Tech Docs tab on the left, select Wood Chip Boiler in the Product Group then download the Service manual Lambdatronic H 3200 for wood chip and pellet boilers. Once you are logged in this link will probably work for 50.04_05.20 (the 50.04 is the hardware version) in English. You can select a different language if desired:
https://secure.froeling.com/download/partner/4487
I don't have the touch display, just the basic LCD with arrow keys. If you have the PC-based firmware update software and update files you can update everything yourself. The manual linked above describes the process. The challenge may be getting the software and update files. I only needed to update the boiler firmware and it was a pretty simple process once I found all the necessary serial port adapters (USB-serial adapter and a gender adapter to allow it to plug into the boiler).
You should be able to change the display to show flue gas temp instead of the exchanger temp. The manual above talks about selecting the touch display options.
You will need to go into the service mode to see some of the settings. Enter the code you already know to change from customer mode. This is where you can see what sensor numbers are assigned to what function (page 119) and all the parameters. Looking at page 65 there are some interesting settings related to the mixer, delta-T and some delay options.
After thinking about it, you should not have a setting for buffer tank volume since this is only used in the log wood boiler for the reload calculation. It is not relevant for wood chips with an automatic feeder.
The FRHYU21 only has a triac output as the 'valve' for the pumps. The FRHY22 adds a relay output which they say to use for ECM pumps like the Wilo. I expect both modules will work the same, especially since you are not using the '+valve' option so the triac will stay on all the time. I also have the older FRHYU21A but configured for 120VAC pumps. The 22 version may be a recent update.
In your other thread, you say:
It seems like there is a possibility of interaction between the pump control and mixer control. Maybe some of the delay parameters could be adjusted. Perhaps the logging system from your dealer will reveal something there.
Another possibility is an incorrect sensor assignment. Do you see a good delta-T when the boiler is operating?
Have you looked at the error history?
If you have the Wood Chip Module, it looks like it controls the return mixer while the hydraulic module controls the pump.
You can also enter the Manual option (page 90) and monitor the boiler control lines. Mine shows things like A 1 for automatic on, A 0 for automatic off. It would be interesting to see what the pump output signal is saying here and if it matches what you see on the scope. You can also manually set the values but I'd be very cautious if the boiler is running.
I hope you can figure out your short-cycling issue...
The p4d software started out for the P4 pellet boiler, I think. It should interface to the H3200 in your boiler since both use the same controller board but I'm sure someone on the German p4d forum could tell you. They have been working on it for a while so it appears pretty mature. The setup includes a web server so you can access the data remotely via web browser. My installation went pretty smoothly based on the instructions with the code on github. With a Raspberry Pi there is an install script. I installed Mint Linux on an old laptop and followed the Installation by Source directions. Check out the very good install directions and some screen shots here:
https://github.com/horchi/linux-p4d#linux---p4-daemon-p4d
I do plan to try it on my S3 Turbo and will report back.
https://secure.froeling.com/download/partner/4487
I don't have the touch display, just the basic LCD with arrow keys. If you have the PC-based firmware update software and update files you can update everything yourself. The manual linked above describes the process. The challenge may be getting the software and update files. I only needed to update the boiler firmware and it was a pretty simple process once I found all the necessary serial port adapters (USB-serial adapter and a gender adapter to allow it to plug into the boiler).
You should be able to change the display to show flue gas temp instead of the exchanger temp. The manual above talks about selecting the touch display options.
You will need to go into the service mode to see some of the settings. Enter the code you already know to change from customer mode. This is where you can see what sensor numbers are assigned to what function (page 119) and all the parameters. Looking at page 65 there are some interesting settings related to the mixer, delta-T and some delay options.
After thinking about it, you should not have a setting for buffer tank volume since this is only used in the log wood boiler for the reload calculation. It is not relevant for wood chips with an automatic feeder.
The FRHYU21 only has a triac output as the 'valve' for the pumps. The FRHY22 adds a relay output which they say to use for ECM pumps like the Wilo. I expect both modules will work the same, especially since you are not using the '+valve' option so the triac will stay on all the time. I also have the older FRHYU21A but configured for 120VAC pumps. The 22 version may be a recent update.
In your other thread, you say:
This does not seem right to me but I may not understand exactly what you are saying. The controller should try and keep some delta-T from the boiler supply to return (settings on page 65?) when it's heating. With my external sensors, I see about 20F / 10C delta when the pump is running and the boiler is heating. The boiler protection valve is an LK823 with 65C element. It opens a little to mix in some colder water from the bottom of storage but does not open fully until storage is almost 100% charged. Once the wood is consumed, the boiler supply temp from the boiler display will increase to about 190F then the pump runs briefly to pull this back to 185F a few times. The return temp is held fairly constant, I think. My plots for supply, return and delta-T are not correct since the sensors are external and only accurate when there is water flow. I suppose what you are seeing makes sense - if the boiler temp does not exceed the target, there is no need to run the pump and open the mixer so the supply and return would stay close to the same temp.
It seems like there is a possibility of interaction between the pump control and mixer control. Maybe some of the delay parameters could be adjusted. Perhaps the logging system from your dealer will reveal something there.
Another possibility is an incorrect sensor assignment. Do you see a good delta-T when the boiler is operating?
Have you looked at the error history?
If you have the Wood Chip Module, it looks like it controls the return mixer while the hydraulic module controls the pump.
You can also enter the Manual option (page 90) and monitor the boiler control lines. Mine shows things like A 1 for automatic on, A 0 for automatic off. It would be interesting to see what the pump output signal is saying here and if it matches what you see on the scope. You can also manually set the values but I'd be very cautious if the boiler is running.
I hope you can figure out your short-cycling issue...
The p4d software started out for the P4 pellet boiler, I think. It should interface to the H3200 in your boiler since both use the same controller board but I'm sure someone on the German p4d forum could tell you. They have been working on it for a while so it appears pretty mature. The setup includes a web server so you can access the data remotely via web browser. My installation went pretty smoothly based on the instructions with the code on github. With a Raspberry Pi there is an install script. I installed Mint Linux on an old laptop and followed the Installation by Source directions. Check out the very good install directions and some screen shots here:
https://github.com/horchi/linux-p4d#linux---p4-daemon-p4d
I do plan to try it on my S3 Turbo and will report back.
I now found manuals from the Froling web site. I've been there before but they asked for a customer ID which I did not have. Perhaps it was optional already then while I just thought the login was for dealers. Thanks.
What is the visualization app available there? Needs a license but looks interesting.
I'm afraid the display home screen keeps showing the flue gas heat exchanger temperature if the exchanger is configured to the system. I know I could change the configuration but I don't want to do it. For some odd reason, the display at times selects something shown on the screen even when pressing a forward/backwards arrow. Nothing critical in normal operation, there is always an option to cancel the incorrect action. However when going into the system configuration menu, you get a long list of products and when you scroll the list with the arrows, the screen at times reads the arrow "button" as an "OK tick" and may select a totally wrong product. Guess what, there is no confirmation request for the option selection in this menu. Everything needs to be configured again once you manage to select the correct boiler type.
Sorry I was not clear when trying to explain what happens after fire off. My point was that the boiler temperature still increases a bit after the shutdown wait state, in the beginning of the standby sate. Nothing odd there but since the buffer bottom temperature is low enough, it should be easy to cool down the boiler by one or two degrees (Celsius). Just run the circulation pump at a low speed (even any speed would be acceptable), open the mixer a bit and wait for a couple of minutes for the boiler temperature to drop a bit. Then close the mixer and switch the pump off. However, instead of doing the above, the boiler starts this pump short cycle phase for some odd reason.
I have assumed that the boiler tries to keep the boiler temperature lower than the buffer top temperature (+ a couple of degrees C) but I'm not sure if the set boiler temperature is used somehow. I have usually set the boiler temperature 82 or 81 C and this where the boiler top settles after shutdown wait. This however depends on another parameter too, the one that is used when calculating the buffer 100% charge state.
You mention the delta-T for boiler operation (heating) state, I don't find any for the wood chip boiler in hydraulic system 4 mode. I honestly don't know how the boiler temperature is adjusted as a function of the mixer state, pump speed and current boiler heating power. I know in our case the return feed is controlled to 60C as long as possible (until the buffer bottom heats up above 60C) but the boiler clearly does not aim at a boiler water temperature matching the set boiler temperature parameter. The boiler temperature is lower most of the time until towards the end of the heating cycle it unavoidably increases to the set point and even a couple of degrees higher shortly. I find heating working so well under varying conditions that I have not paid attention to all details. The boiler burns wood at high efficiency, the pump runs at low speed (low energy consumption), no risk of moisture condensation inside the boiler, no over heating etc. etc. Our only concern really is the standby state behaviour.
Sensor assignments are confusing but we have checked them many times. There are multiple options to wire the return sensor, the pumps and other sensors. Somehow confusing when the mixer and the return feed temperature sensors are wired to the wood chip module but the pump power feed comes from the hydraulic module as well as the pump speed signal. Pump status info is read from the buffer menus, not the boiler menu. Also there are more than one return sensor sockets (core module and wood chip module) and pump drives on the core module as well as the hydraulic module. However, since heating works perfectly in all aspects, it is difficult to think of incorrect wiring or sensor assignment that only affects standby state (I know, never say never).
The fault log is empty except of some unrelated items (feed screw flap opened a couple of times because of a pile of long wood strips blocking feed, boiler lost connection with Froling server because of my WLAN box misbehaving at times etc.).
I have not thought about entering manual pump control mode. I would hesitate that when the boiler is heating but at standby state I could do it. I have followed the "home screen" showing the pump speed though. The problem is that the display does not update frequently enough to capture the short cycling. At times it does show the pump running, often not while the pump keeps switching on and off. Should be interesting to see what happens if I set the pump on manually to some mid range speed (I guess that should be possible).
I might also try the p4d software but better to first wait for some experience from an expert.
What is the visualization app available there? Needs a license but looks interesting.
I'm afraid the display home screen keeps showing the flue gas heat exchanger temperature if the exchanger is configured to the system. I know I could change the configuration but I don't want to do it. For some odd reason, the display at times selects something shown on the screen even when pressing a forward/backwards arrow. Nothing critical in normal operation, there is always an option to cancel the incorrect action. However when going into the system configuration menu, you get a long list of products and when you scroll the list with the arrows, the screen at times reads the arrow "button" as an "OK tick" and may select a totally wrong product. Guess what, there is no confirmation request for the option selection in this menu. Everything needs to be configured again once you manage to select the correct boiler type.
Sorry I was not clear when trying to explain what happens after fire off. My point was that the boiler temperature still increases a bit after the shutdown wait state, in the beginning of the standby sate. Nothing odd there but since the buffer bottom temperature is low enough, it should be easy to cool down the boiler by one or two degrees (Celsius). Just run the circulation pump at a low speed (even any speed would be acceptable), open the mixer a bit and wait for a couple of minutes for the boiler temperature to drop a bit. Then close the mixer and switch the pump off. However, instead of doing the above, the boiler starts this pump short cycle phase for some odd reason.
I have assumed that the boiler tries to keep the boiler temperature lower than the buffer top temperature (+ a couple of degrees C) but I'm not sure if the set boiler temperature is used somehow. I have usually set the boiler temperature 82 or 81 C and this where the boiler top settles after shutdown wait. This however depends on another parameter too, the one that is used when calculating the buffer 100% charge state.
You mention the delta-T for boiler operation (heating) state, I don't find any for the wood chip boiler in hydraulic system 4 mode. I honestly don't know how the boiler temperature is adjusted as a function of the mixer state, pump speed and current boiler heating power. I know in our case the return feed is controlled to 60C as long as possible (until the buffer bottom heats up above 60C) but the boiler clearly does not aim at a boiler water temperature matching the set boiler temperature parameter. The boiler temperature is lower most of the time until towards the end of the heating cycle it unavoidably increases to the set point and even a couple of degrees higher shortly. I find heating working so well under varying conditions that I have not paid attention to all details. The boiler burns wood at high efficiency, the pump runs at low speed (low energy consumption), no risk of moisture condensation inside the boiler, no over heating etc. etc. Our only concern really is the standby state behaviour.
Sensor assignments are confusing but we have checked them many times. There are multiple options to wire the return sensor, the pumps and other sensors. Somehow confusing when the mixer and the return feed temperature sensors are wired to the wood chip module but the pump power feed comes from the hydraulic module as well as the pump speed signal. Pump status info is read from the buffer menus, not the boiler menu. Also there are more than one return sensor sockets (core module and wood chip module) and pump drives on the core module as well as the hydraulic module. However, since heating works perfectly in all aspects, it is difficult to think of incorrect wiring or sensor assignment that only affects standby state (I know, never say never).
The fault log is empty except of some unrelated items (feed screw flap opened a couple of times because of a pile of long wood strips blocking feed, boiler lost connection with Froling server because of my WLAN box misbehaving at times etc.).
I have not thought about entering manual pump control mode. I would hesitate that when the boiler is heating but at standby state I could do it. I have followed the "home screen" showing the pump speed though. The problem is that the display does not update frequently enough to capture the short cycling. At times it does show the pump running, often not while the pump keeps switching on and off. Should be interesting to see what happens if I set the pump on manually to some mid range speed (I guess that should be possible).
I might also try the p4d software but better to first wait for some experience from an expert.
The operation of the touch interface sounds pretty scary. The simple button interface appears to be an advantage in this respect.
The logging device to be installed may be a PC with the Visualisation App. It can log data as well as read/write all settings depending on the access level. I found the manual and also a note that it will work with limited functionality without a license for 10 days. Search for Visualization on the partner page to get the operation manual. Someone from Tarm USA mentioned this a long time ago but I never found out how to get it. I think p4d will do most of the same things.
The sensor wiring is probably all fine if the boiler works as expected other than this issue. Even though it makes things more confusing, it doesn't matter what module the wires connect to as long as the parameter is set to the correct sensor/pump/mixer address.
If the boiler return is held at 60C by the mixer, the pump speed and boiler heat capability will affect the output temp. It may not be able to increase the output temp to 81-82C until the return temp is higher near the end of the buffer loading. This seems good since the boiler would be running at 100% output into the buffer for as long as possible. The S3 Turbo appears to run below 100% after the initial heat up since it can't transfer the 100% output to the buffer due to the lower temp at the bottom of the buffer (usually around 21C due to the radiant floor return) being mixed with the 85C output / bypass temp. Its pump runs at 100% (17gpm) during this time to transfer as much heat as possible and slows as the bottom buffer temp increases. Your woodchip boiler seems to operate very differently from the log wood boiler.
I do wonder if the Return Setpoint Delay could improve your issue. The manual says:
I was not suggesting that you manually operate the pump. The Manual menu option also allows you to see what the controller sees and what it is telling the hardware to do. For example, if I go to the loading pump output it will say A 100 for 100% or A 60 for 60% output. It changes in real time. You can possibly see if it is telling the pump and return mixer to change values (not sure about the response time of the display). You don't need to change anything to view the status. If the logging device uses the Visualise app, it might also capture this information.
If you wanted to try and manually change the pump speed you might be able to select a different mode on the pump. The Resideo pump can be cycled through various constant speed/pressure settings and the 0-10V mode with the button on the front. You might monitor the mixing valve control voltage (however it works, I haven't been able to figure that out so far) or its status in the Manual menu to see what it does if you set the pump to a fixed speed when the short cycling is occurring. If the pump is running and the mixing valve opens the return temp should also change, I think.
Hopefully the logging device will capture enough information to show you what is really happening.
The logging device to be installed may be a PC with the Visualisation App. It can log data as well as read/write all settings depending on the access level. I found the manual and also a note that it will work with limited functionality without a license for 10 days. Search for Visualization on the partner page to get the operation manual. Someone from Tarm USA mentioned this a long time ago but I never found out how to get it. I think p4d will do most of the same things.
The sensor wiring is probably all fine if the boiler works as expected other than this issue. Even though it makes things more confusing, it doesn't matter what module the wires connect to as long as the parameter is set to the correct sensor/pump/mixer address.
If the boiler return is held at 60C by the mixer, the pump speed and boiler heat capability will affect the output temp. It may not be able to increase the output temp to 81-82C until the return temp is higher near the end of the buffer loading. This seems good since the boiler would be running at 100% output into the buffer for as long as possible. The S3 Turbo appears to run below 100% after the initial heat up since it can't transfer the 100% output to the buffer due to the lower temp at the bottom of the buffer (usually around 21C due to the radiant floor return) being mixed with the 85C output / bypass temp. Its pump runs at 100% (17gpm) during this time to transfer as much heat as possible and slows as the bottom buffer temp increases. Your woodchip boiler seems to operate very differently from the log wood boiler.
I do wonder if the Return Setpoint Delay could improve your issue. The manual says:
The mixer appears to go back to full bypass (no storage return) when in standby. This would mean that even though there is 70C water at the bottom of storage, the boiler return will not see it immediately. The pump must run then the mixer must open then the water must flow to the sensor (dependency on pipe length & sensor location) before the return measurement is valid. The return temp should be ignored until this has happened. If this time is too short, the controller might decide that "I turned on the pump, immediately checked the temps, there was no difference in boiler output and return so running the pump had no effect, turn off the pump, the boiler output is still too high, try the loop again." If this is the case, it seems like it would repeat until the boiler dissipates some heat and the short cycle behavior ends after a few hours. Your observation that the boiler temp drops below the top of the buffer temp and the short cycling stops around the same time makes sense if this is the case.
I was not suggesting that you manually operate the pump. The Manual menu option also allows you to see what the controller sees and what it is telling the hardware to do. For example, if I go to the loading pump output it will say A 100 for 100% or A 60 for 60% output. It changes in real time. You can possibly see if it is telling the pump and return mixer to change values (not sure about the response time of the display). You don't need to change anything to view the status. If the logging device uses the Visualise app, it might also capture this information.
If you wanted to try and manually change the pump speed you might be able to select a different mode on the pump. The Resideo pump can be cycled through various constant speed/pressure settings and the 0-10V mode with the button on the front. You might monitor the mixing valve control voltage (however it works, I haven't been able to figure that out so far) or its status in the Manual menu to see what it does if you set the pump to a fixed speed when the short cycling is occurring. If the pump is running and the mixing valve opens the return temp should also change, I think.
Hopefully the logging device will capture enough information to show you what is really happening.
I don't know yet but I understood the logging device being more like simple USB-stick to which the boiler writes data. I'll hopefully see it soon. Guys at our dealer are on holiday at the moment, "soon" unlikely means next couple of days.
There is no description about the boiler control algorithm in standby state but my guess would be a bit different from what you describe. I assume the boiler does not care about the return temperature except likely taking care of the return not dropping below 60 C. The reason to activate the pump anyway must be the boiler temperature either as referred to the boiler set-point or the buffer top (those using two sensors/hydraulic system 1 refer to a 2 degree hysteresis between the boiler and the buffer tank top temperature). In this case the boiler would (should) run the circulation pump as long as the boiler temperature is "too high". It would not matter if the return was too high, it cannot be higher than the boiler anyway. Running the pump would equalize the boiler and the buffer top temperatures irrespective of the return temperature?
Short cycling at worst happens at a one second rate. Sounds odd if the boiler starts the pump and after a second gives up just because the return did not change immediately?
The mixer does not have any actual position sensor (potentiometer or any other valve adjustment angle sensor). The mixer has limit switches. The drive is simple on/off, a drive voltage for open and close direction. The boiler just needs to output a pulse to open or close the valve when it sees that the water flow is too high or too low. Takes quite a while to open the mixer (150 seconds even if driven full time), the control algorithm must be a lot more patient than anything causing the short cycling behaviour.
There is no description about the boiler control algorithm in standby state but my guess would be a bit different from what you describe. I assume the boiler does not care about the return temperature except likely taking care of the return not dropping below 60 C. The reason to activate the pump anyway must be the boiler temperature either as referred to the boiler set-point or the buffer top (those using two sensors/hydraulic system 1 refer to a 2 degree hysteresis between the boiler and the buffer tank top temperature). In this case the boiler would (should) run the circulation pump as long as the boiler temperature is "too high". It would not matter if the return was too high, it cannot be higher than the boiler anyway. Running the pump would equalize the boiler and the buffer top temperatures irrespective of the return temperature?
Short cycling at worst happens at a one second rate. Sounds odd if the boiler starts the pump and after a second gives up just because the return did not change immediately?
The mixer does not have any actual position sensor (potentiometer or any other valve adjustment angle sensor). The mixer has limit switches. The drive is simple on/off, a drive voltage for open and close direction. The boiler just needs to output a pulse to open or close the valve when it sees that the water flow is too high or too low. Takes quite a while to open the mixer (150 seconds even if driven full time), the control algorithm must be a lot more patient than anything causing the short cycling behaviour.
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