Free-standing Wood stove vs. Insert

[MichaelAL]

That salesperson is starting to blow smoke. A convective stove is generally better in a fireplace. It looks like the hearth pad he is recommending is ember protection only. That is a long way from the requirement for the Homestead. It needs a hearth with an R=2.5 rating with the 6" legs and a whopping R=6.6 with the short 4" legs. I think that is the highest in the industry.

Wow! Looks like I just bumped my hopes up to the 6 inch leg model.

 

[MichaelAL]

Welp,

I talked to the builder of this house and found out that those slabs in my hearth are 3 inch thick granite. As I understand it, granite has almost no R value so any free standing stove is going to require some hearth work. Might as well extend it a bit while that project is underway... If an insert only requires ember protection on the hearth (which i need to investigate later), that is sure a big factor to consider...

 

[bholler]

Welp,

I talked to the builder of this house and found out that those slabs in my hearth are 3 inch thick granite. As I understand it, granite has almost no R value so any free standing stove is going to require some hearth work. Might as well extend it a bit while that project is underway... If an insert only requires ember protection on the hearth (which i need to investigate later), that is sure a big factor to consider...

An insert requires a code compliant hearth and hearth extension. Are you saying your hearth extension is just granite slab with combustible material under it?

 

[MichaelAL]

An insert requires a code compliant hearth and hearth extension. Are you saying your hearth extension is just granite slab with combustible material under it?

The hearth itself is 3 inch granite slabs. There is not 'extension' as of yet. I do not know what is underneath those slabs, but the attached pic is the hearth itself and two from underneath the hearth.

 

[MichaelAL]

The hearth itself is 3 inch granite slabs. There is not 'extension' as of yet. I do not know what is underneath those slabs, but the attached pic is the hearth itself and two from underneath the hearth.

And that silvery surface in the basement pics appears to be some sort of plywood with a grey/silver paint. Is this good? Bad? I have no idea haha!

 

[MichaelAL]

And that silvery surface in the basement pics appears to be some sort of plywood with a grey/silver paint. Is this good? Bad? I have no idea haha!

Apologies (I am obviously not an expert on this stuff which is why I am reaching out to the community). In my previous posts when I am saying "hearth" I meant "hearth extension". I just came to understand the difference.

In reading the Hampton HI400 insert manual (yes I am close to throwing in the towel and going that route) it lists requirements as a hearth having an R value of 2.13 or more, and a hearth extension as conforming to UL1618. I googled UL1618 and couldnt make sense of what that means exactly. Can someone clarify please?

Ultimately at this point I am wondering if my hearth/hearth extension is even to code for this insert...

The hampton h400

 

[begreen]

And that silvery surface in the basement pics appears to be some sort of plywood with a grey/silver paint. Is this good? Bad? I have no idea haha!

That looks like concrete that has had the plywood form removed.

 

[bholler]

Yes definitely concrete with the imprint of the wood forms it is done right

 

[shortys7777]

Looks pretty similar to mine from the basement. I didn't even put a hearth pad down last year. Might this year. Where in RI are you?

 

[MichaelAL]

Looks pretty similar to mine from the basement. I didn't even put a hearth pad down last year. Might this year. Where in RI are you?

Thanks again for all the responses everybody, and I am sorry this thread has strayed from the original question about a stove vs insert to one about my hearth extension construction. But I am glad it has because it's great to know that my extension is properly built!

I think the last two things I have to figure out before I can decide which way to go are:

1) knowing the hearth extension is 3 inch granite on top of concrete, can I make any assumption about what the R value of the extension is? I dont know the thickness of the concrete but there are no joists under it so... no combustiles may mean really good R value?

2) Is it safe to assume that the hearth extension (as currently built) would be capable of supporting a 3-400+ lb free standing stove?

Thanks again everybody!

Oh and Shorty, I live in South County.

 

[Rickb]

If its concrete and no combustables it doesnt need an R value. There is nothing to burn.

 

[Bad LP]

If its concrete and no combustables it doesnt need an R value. There is nothing to burn.

THIS.

 

[bholler]

What Rick said you need no r value it is all non-combustible

 

[MichaelAL]

What Rick said you need no r value it is all non-combustible

Thanks BHoller,

Just to tie this thing off: I *could* install a free standing stove on this hearth extension, but wherever that stove is positioned, I would need to add more hearth extension out to 16 inches beyond the front stove door that is of an R value to that stove manufacturers spec (In the case of the homestead with the 6 inch legs it is 2.5). Whether that is a pad on top of my wood floor or more invasive work in the floor with Micro board/stone (for example) does not matter.

Alternatively, I have a setup that would fully support a flush mounted insert without any modifications.

All agree?

Much obliged for all your help (everybody) as I am learning more than I ever cared to about hearths, fire code, and stove installations!

-Michael

 

[begreen]

Essentially correct, but I would not limit this to a flush insert. They must have the blower running for good heat. An insert that extends out onto the hearth a bit will heat the room better with the blower off.

 

[MichaelAL]

Noted Begreen,

But remember, my hearth extension is only 18.5 inches, so any insert that bumps out more than 2.5 inches (namely pretty much all of them), are going to require some hearth manipulation to be up to code. So, might as well go with a free-stander at that point... My current plan is to pick up a type 2 Hearth Extension pad (like the link below), and install a free standing stove right on my existing Hearth. I was originally looking at the Hearthstone stoves, but my wife has weighed in and she likes the Vermont Castings Encore. I am aware of the highly questionable quality of VC products nowadays, so I am in turn looking at the Quadra-fire Explorer II as a similar Cast Iron alternative. Question for the group, what is the R-value required on an Explorer II Hearth Install? The user's manual just says a Type 1 (ember only) extension may be necessary, but I find it hard to believe that is sufficient to put over hard-wood floor 3 inches in front of that stove...

HY-C 18" x 48" Type 2 Hearth Extender - Black | Woodland Direct

Protect your floors from the intense heat, hot coals, ashes and soot that your wood stove can produce. Add the HY-C 18" x 48" Type 2 Hearth Extender - Black to your hearth pad or fireplace to add further protection from flying embers and sparks. Feat

www.woodlanddirect.com

 

[bholler]

Noted Begreen,

But remember, my hearth extension is only 18.5 inches, so any insert that bumps out more than 2.5 inches (namely pretty much all of them), are going to require some hearth manipulation to be up to code. So, might as well go with a free-stander at that point... My current plan is to pick up a type 2 Hearth Extension pad (like the link below), and install a free standing stove right on my existing Hearth. I was originally looking at the Hearthstone stoves, but my wife has weighed in and she likes the Vermont Castings Encore. I am aware of the highly questionable quality of VC products nowadays, so I am in turn looking at the Quadra-fire Explorer II as a similar Cast Iron alternative. Question for the group, what is the R-value required on an Explorer II Hearth Install? The user's manual just says a Type 1 (ember only) extension may be necessary, but I find it hard to believe that is sufficient to put over hard-wood floor 3 inches in front of that stove...

HY-C 18" x 48" Type 2 Hearth Extender - Black | Woodland Direct

Protect your floors from the intense heat, hot coals, ashes and soot that your wood stove can produce. Add the HY-C 18" x 48" Type 2 Hearth Extender - Black to your hearth pad or fireplace to add further protection from flying embers and sparks. Feat

www.woodlanddirect.com

If it says ember protection only no r value is required

 

[Highbeam]

Some people use clear glass hearths over hardwood or even carpet if only ember protection is required. Really, in this day and age, no stove should require more than ember protection but some still do!

 

[MichaelAL]

That is amazing. The Hearthstone Homestead R-value requirements had me extremely sensitive to this stuff, but it's nice to know the QuadraFire is in another league in this regard. And we all feel pretty good about the quality/reliability of the Quadrafire products? The explorer II sure looks like a winner from an aesthetics, feature, size standpoint... If it's all those things plus a quality product, I'm planning to call my local dealer tomorrow.

 

[begreen]

The Explorer is a good looking and well-made stove. It is a much simpler design than the Encore. A type 1 extension will work fine.

 

[morganp107]

Just came across this thread. For what it's worth, I was in the same boat as you last year, trying to decide between an insert and a freestanding stove in my existing fireplace. In the end, I went with a freestanding stove and couldn't be happier. I made the decision on two main factors, price, and not having to modify my hearth, as if I went with the insert, I was going to have to make modifications with the floor or the hearth, which my wife didn't love. The freestander heats our place great and I am pleased with it. Hope this helps.

 

[MichaelAL]

Just came across this thread. For what it's worth, I was in the same boat as you last year, trying to decide between an insert and a freestanding stove in my existing fireplace. In the end, I went with a freestanding stove and couldn't be happier. I made the decision on two main factors, price, and not having to modify my hearth, as if I went with the insert, I was going to have to make modifications with the floor or the hearth, which my wife didn't love. The freestander heats our place great and I am pleased with it. Hope this helps.

Thanks MorganP,

I am going to pull the trigger on a free standing stove this week, and love getting reinforcement around every corner! This analysis has been quite the journey, but with fire in the house with my wife and kids, there is no such thing as over-thinking it.

Glad you're pleased with your outcome.

Curious, what stove did you go with?

 

[morganp107]

Thanks MorganP,

I am going to pull the trigger on a free standing stove this week, and love getting reinforcement around every corner! This analysis has been quite the journey, but with fire in the house with my wife and kids, there is no such thing as over-thinking it.

Glad you're pleased with your outcome.

Curious, what stove did you go with?

I looked at quite a few, but one of our local dealers had an Enerzone Solution 1.8 (basic well built steel stove with a 1.8 cu. ft. firebox, built by SBI in Quebec) on sale and went with that. Also looked at Lopi, Regency, and Hampton (H300 free standing stove).

I too have kids and there is no overthinking. The benefit of the stove in the fireplace is its pretty tucked away from my little ones. Good luck on your purchase! Be sure to send out a pic when its complete.

 

[MichaelAL]

I looked at quite a few, but one of our local dealers had an Enerzone Solution 1.8 (basic well built steel stove with a 1.8 cu. ft. firebox, built by SBI in Quebec) on sale and went with that. Also looked at Lopi, Regency, and Hampton (H300 free standing stove).

I too have kids and there is no overthinking. The benefit of the stove in the fireplace is its pretty tucked away from my little ones. Good luck on your purchase! Be sure to send out a pic when its complete.

Gotcha,

I am calling around to a bunch of dealers currently to see if I can get lucky on a 2019 model they are looking to fire-sale (pun intended). Will post a pic of the finished product when it gets installed.

 

[MichaelAL]

Hi All,

Update on this and a request for any thoughts if you have them. I ended up ordering a Quadra-Fire explorer II way back in very early October, and have since waited, and waited and waited. I got a call from the retailer today saying that the manufacturer advised him that it will be two MORE weeks still since they are rolling out all their EPA 2020 stoves and that is causing a delay. My retailer offered to cancel my order and refund my deposit. I am inclined to just wait the two additional weeks, but figured I would take the opportunity to see if there are any other stoves that I should consider that may be able to come in sooner. The dimensions of the Vermont Castings Encore are ideal for my hearth, but I am steering clear of that company due to reliability/reputation. The stove also has to have classic (Jotul Oslo-esque) styling to satisfy the wife; and not to make it too specific as to be impossible, but a white enamel finish would also be ideal.

This is a last ditch effort as I believe I have researched all options, but maybe there is a lesser known brand/model lurking out there that somebody could point me towards. I am getting impatient as it has suddenly gotten very cold in the Northeast and I am burning lots of oil!!

Thanks all,

-Michael