Flue Liner and Stove Pipe

[jb6l6gc]

yes that looks like an identical unit to my hotblast 1400 which has a johnson energy systems tag on it too. On a sidenote it may not necessarilly be Co it could be those two chinese junk fans you have on the back are not pushing enough air and overheating your ducts and such. That was the exact problem I had. Fans werent pushing enough air overheating ducts and almost melted an abs pipe that was near one of the ducts. Nasty fumes, headaches etc. Trust me you will be much happier to replace those junk, noisy, expensive chinese fans with a real furnace fan, the difference is llike night and day. You can get a furnace fan from one of your local hvac guys or craigslist for cheaper than one replacment just make sure its 110v and it wires in the same.

 

[jb6l6gc]

forgot to say you will have to cut the fan openings larger though, not that hard to do. I have pictures somewhere of when I did mine, if i can find them I will post them

 

[rawfdawg]

Would be interesting if you could get a new CO detector before the FD gets there. Then you can get a handle on how accurate it is, maybe, by comparing with what they see. Depending on what they see.

That will be the plan. I ordered two detectors yesterday. They will display as low as 10ppm, with +/-20% accuracy from 30ppm-999ppm.

 

[rawfdawg]

forgot to say you will have to cut the fan openings larger though, not that hard to do. I have pictures somewhere of when I did mine, if i can find them I will post them

I would be interested in seeing them. In comparison to the propane furnace fan, there is not nearly as much air from the vents with the wood burner fans.

 

[jb6l6gc]

I would be interested in seeing them. In comparison to the propane furnace fan, there is not nearly as much air from the vents with the wood burner fans.

Yes that was exactly my problem too, I went onto kijiji (canadian equivalent to craigslist) bought a used lennox furnace fan and installed that. Like I said what a difference. CFM of my wood furnace fan is identical to my forced air electric furnace now. Those fans on those units are junk, I bet yours are noisy as hell I know mine were. Bearings go bad on those frequently and theyre a ton of money to replace, I think like $100 ea. Furnace fan cost me $25 + a little labour, best decision and modification I ever made.

 

[maple1]

That will be the plan. I ordered two detectors yesterday. They will display as low as 10ppm, with +/-20% accuracy from 30ppm-999ppm.

Great - make sure to update us on results. I would like to have a decently accurate one here too that displays levels.

 

[jb6l6gc]

I would be interested in seeing them. In comparison to the propane furnace fan, there is not nearly as much air from the vents with the wood burner fans.

Thats why I said it may not necessarily be co causing your headaches. Ductwork is galvanized and if overheated due to the crappy blowers not pushing enough could be causing headaches. I only re-interate this because what you described is exactly what was happening to me 3 years ago when i bought my house and started using that exact same furnace. I've always had the readout type of monitor in my basement and upstairs that has never even displayed 1ppm. If no co's when you measure this would be my next culprit.

 

[rawfdawg]

Yes that was exactly my problem too, I went onto kijiji (canadian equivalent to craigslist) bought a used lennox furnace fan and installed that. Like I said what a difference. CFM of my wood furnace fan is identical to my forced air electric furnace now. Those fans on those units are junk, I bet yours are noisy as hell I know mine were. Bearings go bad on those frequently and theyre a ton of money to replace, I think like $100 ea. Furnace fan cost me $25 + a little labour, best decision and modification I ever made.

They are pretty loud. With the age of this wood furnace, I think the motors I have predate the Chinese takeover. They are Dayton motors. But still, I understand where you are coming from.

 

[rawfdawg]

Thats why I said it may not necessarily be co causing your headaches. Ductwork is galvanized and if overheated due to the crappy blowers not pushing enough could be causing headaches. I only re-interate this because what you described is exactly what was happening to me 3 years ago when i bought my house and started using that exact same furnace. I've always had the readout type of monitor in my basement and upstairs that has never even displayed 1ppm. If no co's when you measure this would be my next culprit.

I will definitely take this into consideration. I do notice that the propane furnace fan will kick on when things start getting pretty hot. I leave the thermostat down low on the propane furnace, so when the wood furnace fire gets low, heat will kick on. I am not sure if I should do this? But I am also nervous the propane furnace might get damaged if it gets too hot. I don't know if the way the duct work is setup is good? There is no back draft dampers on the two 8" ducts from the wood furnace. And I'm pretty sure there is not a back damper to the propane furnace. The previous owner used it like this for 25years, and had no problems. But I question it?

 

[jb6l6gc]

looks very similar to my setup, however I have automatic backdraft dampers on the 8" ducts. My cold air intake comes off cold air plenum before the electric furnace and I replace electric furnace filter with a piece of wood as a damper when running the wood. My ducting goes around the wood furnace blower to keep it all an enclosed system. I found when it was open it was drawing too much air from the basement and creating a negative pressure zone. Made it very hard to distribute the heat evenly through a two story house. The easiest way to picture mine is hooked up in parrallel but because I block off where the filter is on the electric furnace it cant keep cycling in a circle, therefore distributing through the house better. Only issue with mine is I can only run one at a time and its a manual switchover. One of these days I keep saying I'm going to figure out a better way but I'm not gonna bother until after I replace the hotblast for a drolet tundra next year. I will post some pics when I get home from work tommorow.

 

[jb6l6gc]

another thing I'm gonna do when I replace it next year is build a block pedestal to raise it up so I dont have to bend down so much everytime when I'm loading the damn thing! I'm still young but at some point I wont be anymore and I'll wish I had've done that.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Here's the pics I'll post some of the fan install if I can find em on computer they were on my old phone

 

[rawfdawg]

Great - make sure to update us on results. I would like to have a decently accurate one here too that displays levels.

I received the detectors on Friday. I think it was a great purchase. They monitor as low as 10ppm. First alert is at 30ppm. Continuously displays current ppm beginning at 30ppm. Press one button to see ppm from 10ppm-29ppm. Shows the peak ppm, along with the amount of time is was at that peak level. Claims to have 20% accuracy from 30ppm-999ppm. Has a ten year lithium battery. And a 10 year warranty.

I fired up the wood furnace again after I activated the CO detectors. I have not got a reading indicating a level of at least 10ppm. I was going to wait till I had at least a measurable reading before contacting local volunteer fire department. Therefore, I do not a comparison yet on this unit's reading to a good CO meter. I will be sure to let you know if I do.

 

[rawfdawg]

Here's the pics I'll post some of the fan install if I can find em on computer they were on my old phone

Thanks for the pictures. I have a better understanding now of your venting. Did you do the ducts yourself? And is that the average fuel load you use? What kind of burn times do you get? I'm still trying to figure out how much wood to load. I don't want to over fire the wood furnace.

 

[rawfdawg]

That tee snout does not stick out far enough. Honestly i would call the guy who installed the liner and tell him he need to come back and extend the tee snout at least 1.5" out of the chimney and then install proper connector pipe. You payed for it to be hooked up right and that is not right.

I spoke with the chimney sweep for 1.5 hours. I told him my desire to have black stove pipe and a damper. He told me he could do it if that is what I wanted. He explained why he used flexible liner. It was because it was more of gradual flow. With the black stove pipe, he stated he would have to use two 90 degree elbows. He had a concern for the turbulence which would be created with the the elbows. He stated he uses flex liner on his own wood furnace as assurance.

The chimney sweep also seemed to be in the school of thought that key and barometric dampers can cause more harm than good. One of the issues is that dampers can allow cool air in creating the likelihood of more creosote buildup. He mentioned with a barometric damper, if you have a chimney fire, it would be hard to put out because it would allow air flow to continue. I'm not really in a position to argue with him. He has 30 years experience as a chimney sweep and a very successful business. In some ways, I question it. But at the same time, who am I to say? I just started burning a couple months ago. He is very friendly. He took all the time in the world to answer my questions in much detail. And he was very patient with my bombardment of questions. But even with his viewpoints, I think I'd still want to go with black stovepipe and damper. I understand what he was telling me, but I also understand the feedback I have received here. I'm thinking I like the idea of black stovepipe with a damper better.

 

[bholler]

One of the issues is that dampers can allow cool air in creating the likelihood of more creosote buildup. He mentioned with a barometric damper, if you have a chimney fire, it would be hard to put out because it would allow air flow to continue.

I totally agree with him on that point. But i dont see an issue with a key damper

He told me he could do it if that is what I wanted. He explained why he used flexible liner. It was because it was more of gradual flow. With the black stove pipe, he stated he would have to use two 90 degree elbows. He had a concern for the turbulence which would be created with the the elbows.

Well you would only need 1 90. And the lightwall liner does not meet the thickness requirement for connector pipe so it does not meet code. The stainless snout also does not extend far enough out of the wall to meet the requirements either.

 

[bholler]

I'm not really in a position to argue with him. He has 30 years experience as a chimney sweep and a very successful business.

It is your house so yes you are in a position to argue. What does your manual call for for connector pipe?

 

[rawfdawg]

It is your house so yes you are in a position to argue. What does your manual call for for connector pipe?

Very good point. There is not a manual I could find for any wood furnace which did not call for black stove pipe. And I could not find any manual for the installation of chimney liner which states it can be used as connector pipe.

 

[rawfdawg]

I totally agree with him on that point. But i dont see an issue with a key damper


Well you would only need 1 90. And the lightwall liner does not meet the thickness requirement for connector pipe so it does not meet code. The stainless snout also does not extend far enough out of the wall to meet the requirements either.

I will bring this up. I also will try to find a site which will allow me to view UL 1777 and Fire Code 211 for free.

 

[jb6l6gc]

Thanks for the pictures. I have a better understanding now of your venting. Did you do the ducts yourself? And is that the average fuel load you use? What kind of burn times do you get? I'm still trying to figure out how much wood to load. I don't want to over fire the wood furnace.

I did the return ducting when I switched the fan for better flow and distribution. As far as loading I don't do much more than that. The intake air controls on these units are not very good! I keep it set just below high
Burn times are about 6hrs doesn't really get any better on this unit for me at least. It dirties up chimney allot too, I clean about 3 times a season. If you have the money and can afford I'd recommend an upgrade when you can. I personally am gonna get the tundra, bonus is it hooks up exactly the same.
+1 here on changing for black stove pipe, have a key damper but always leave it open. I fear with how dirty it burns slowing it down would create more creosote buildup

 

[rawfdawg]

I totally agree with him on that point. But i dont see an issue with a key damper


Well you would only need 1 90. And the lightwall liner does not meet the thickness requirement for connector pipe so it does not meet code. The stainless snout also does not extend far enough out of the wall to meet the requirements either.

Here is the chimney sweeps reply:

24 gauge connector pipe thickness was arrived at determining and taking in consideration the corrosion resistance of the material used. The 24 gauge requirement was arrived at for steel pipe or galvanized pipe which is allowed. Both of the aforementioned pipes can burn through and have low corrosion resistance as compared to stain less steel. Neither of the two steel pipes carry a warranty. The stainless steel connector pipe currently being used carries a lifetime warranty. It is highly corrosion resistant as similar metals are used in jet aircraft exhaust ports. Stainless steel connector pipe is tested to 2100°. Galvanized steel pipe cannot withstand these temperatures repeatedly. I would always recommend to a client with an add on woodburning furnace, to use at least a 304 alloy stainless steel. And not to consider a 400 series. Whether it be rigid or flexible. I would not use steel pipe, and especially not galvanized pipe. Remember, firecode or standards are the MINIMUM requirement. In layman's terms, it is a grade C or D. It is just passing. I would prefer in this more rugged (type of )use installation, that we would choose to use the best materials for the class of service. Please remember that we used the flexible stainless steel to minimize resistance to flow.
As far as how far a thimble should come in to the room? I do not know anywhere in NFPA 211 that it covers the protrusion into the room. However, NFPA 211 does speak of masonry thimbles being flush to the inner walls of the masonry chimney. (not your case) Any manufactured system, the authority having jurisdiction would be the UL listed manufacturer instructions In class a chimneys, is most common to see a six-inch protrusion into the room from the wall of the manufactured Chimney, or a 3 inch protrusion in the room of a manufactured Chimney from the ceiling. This is not (your installation) an installed class a system. This is a liner system. We kept the protrusion in the room to a minimum on purpose, to allow less protrusion or obstruction into the walkway or room.
Please let me know if you ever lock down the code by section number or chapter. I am not aware of it currently. As far as the manufacturer instructions go, I believe as long as the pipe can be easily removed/readily accessible/ and inspected would be the only pertaining criteria, if that in and of itself even exist.
The current edition of NFPA 211 is the year 2013.

 

[rawfdawg]

I did the return ducting when I switched the fan for better flow and distribution. As far as loading I don't do much more than that. The intake air controls on these units are not very good! I keep it set just below high
Burn times are about 6hrs doesn't really get any better on this unit for me at least. It dirties up chimney allot too, I clean about 3 times a season. If you have the money and can afford I'd recommend an upgrade when you can. I personally am gonna get the tundra, bonus is it hooks up exactly the same.
+1 here on changing for black stove pipe, have a key damper but always leave it open. I fear with how dirty it burns slowing it down would create more creosote buildup

Thanks for the information. I hope to upgrade at some point. Maybe for next season if I can afford it. I was thinking Tundra or Caddy myself.

 

[bholler]

While i agree that code are a minimum and we regularly exceed them the minimum thickness of a connector pipe is 24 gauge. I would agree that stainless would be better but it still needs to meet that minimum thickness. As far as 304 versus 400 series. all of the commercially available stainless connector pipes are 400 series and they last a long time i see absolutely no problem with it and they will last much longer than that light wall liner which can and will eventually burn through. Also there is nothing in any code allowing for a flexible connector pipe it simply is not there and his claim that is will flow better is just wrong the corrugated pipe reduces flow more that a couple low angle elbows with smooth pipe would. The projection past the wall is a requirement of the liner manufacturer and any i have worked with require 1.5" I don't know what brand he used but I have never come across one that required less than that. And following manufacturers instructions is a code requirement

 

[jb6l6gc]

Just looking back on this thread any word on the co readings?

 

[rawfdawg]

Just looking back on this thread any word on the co readings?

So far, no measurable readings. Therefore, nothing to compare it to yet. If I get a reading of 10ppm, then I can call someone with a good meter for a comparison.