Firewood "Tips" according to the State Of Ohio

[DoubleB]

Again I ask what is the moisture content on a fresh cut live tree???

Depends upon species, soil, time of year, tree health, etc. Anywhere from about 40% for ash up to >100% for lesser firewoods, but usually around 60%-80% for what most of us cut and dry.

Would 50% even burn?

Yes, with lots of air. But not well, not cleanly, and not with great heat output.

 

[Omaha419]

Keyword: government.

 

[nola mike]

Am i the only one that thinks this is actually a good thing? Except for the moisture content, which is absurd, it just seems like it clarifies terminology. That way everyone's on the same page... (what's a rick? what is "seasoned" wood?)

 

[brenndatomu]

Am i the only one that thinks this is actually a good thing? Except for the moisture content, which is absurd, it just seems like it clarifies terminology. That way everyone's on the same page... (what's a rick? what is "seasoned" wood?)

Oh, it's a good idea, just very seldom enforced. And yes, they are smokin crack if they think keeping the MC under 50% is helping anybody

 

[firefighterjake]

I heard back from the state via email. copy/paste of relevvant portion:

Egads . . . someone was either completely incompetent or not thinking when they came up with the idea of 50% being seasoned . . . I mean even for someone using a pre-EPA stove wood that is "half" water would not burn well.

 

[firefighterjake]

Agreed... if you're typing on a phone. if you're using a computer keyboard number pad, the 2 is below the 5. ;-)

Hehheh . . . I think my fingers are dyslexic since I was looking at a computer keyboard when I wrote that even!

 

[firefighterjake]

Would 50% even burn?

Everything will burn . . . even soaking wet wood . . . it all boils down to how long you want to apply heat, how much heat in terms of temp you will apply to the fuel to get it to ignite, how much extra oxygen you need to feed the fire to get a sustained burn and how much you don't mind smoking up the neighborhood.

 

[blades]

Well you can burn water, once you get it hot enough to separate the H from 2O, course it is a little easier using an electric current to accomplish that division. not saying it would be a controlled burn though.

 

[Ashful]

Am i the only one that thinks this is actually a good thing? Except for the moisture content, which is absurd, it just seems like it clarifies terminology. That way everyone's on the same page... (what's a rick? what is "seasoned" wood?)

Yes, I agree. The first part of any proper contract of sale is a definition of terms. We see countless posts here every year, from buyers complaining they were cheated in buying firewood. The terms are unfortunately necessary, due to unscrupulous sellers and ignorant buyers. It's there as much (or more) for recourse, than for prevention. When cases hit small claims court, these definitions are the basis for decision.

 

[Wood Duck]

The good news is that all of the wood in my stacks is officially seasoned.

 

[hamslam42]

The good news is that all of the wood in my stacks is officially seasoned.

Not for you, cause you live in PA. Now if you took your wood and dropped it off in Ohio, then it would be seasoned

 

[DoubleB]

The first part of any proper contract of sale is a definition of terms.

Yep, I agree, and that's how I started my post. And that's why I think that 2 grown-ups ought to be able to define and agree to the best terms for their situation. And if people aren't able to define or agree to terms, then they should be treated with enough respect as adults to let them either decide to forego a transaction, or to bear their risk and reward of proceeding with something they are unsure of. Clearly the state's law (which I agree is well-intended) can't simultaneously meet different people's different definitions of "seasoned" wood, for example, and no matter what MC they mandate, it's not optimum for some set of transactions that people would wish to conduct. And if one party doesn't live up to their agreement, small claims court can still work for that.

I've bought and sold hay before. Circular bales, big squares, small squares, big small squares, small small squares, tight bales, loose bales, wet bales, dry bales, weeds, timothy, alfalfa, clover, sheesh the possibilities for fraud seem endless. No government definition of "hay", no State unit of measure, no nothing. Just a few mature adults trying to help each other out and taking appropriate steps to make sure we were all on the same page. I'd rather live in a world where we can mutually benefit each other in a way that we agree is best, than in one in which us beneficial people run afoul of the law that exists to protect people from decisions that ultimately they made of their own freedom.

Anyways, that's the basis for why I don't think the firewood laws are helpful. I'm not trying to make it a political thing, so I'll close myself out of this thread and see all of you friends on other topics.

Happy burning!

 

[Ashful]

DoubleB, consider yourself blessed that you're not an idiot, and you're in the rare position of having never had to deal with one. For the rest of our population, the government is here to save you from yourself.

 

[Applesister]

I didnt read the link, but in regards to the 50% moisture thing. I interpret that to mean the government made a broad sweep of what would be a legal transaction to protect wood sellers. And the definition of measurement to clarify for consumers. Making the burden of drying the wood properly the responsibility of the consumer not the seller.
And maybe this is mostly to keep small claims courts free of claims against sellers selling green wood, (which it all basically is anyway)
Sellers just respond to a consumer need to buy wood already seasoned.
DEC has produced moisture content charts for green wood. Its average percentages. The charts read like BTU charts. Apparently the sapwood and heartwood of most of the native tree species has a set MC %
It was produced by a DEC experiment station out west somewhere. Sorry, saw it in my travels, I know it exists, dont know where.
Red Oak was listed at 78% MC, my 30.00 hand held moisture meter only accurately reads up to 50% where it tops.

 

[brenndatomu]

Sellers just respond to a consumer need to buy wood already seasoned.

To me, if they want to make laws about this stuff, do it in a way that may actually help somebody. Most people think "seasoned" means dry. So make the law read that "seasoned" firewood has to be under, say 25%. Under 20% would be called "ready to burn".
If you are selling 25% to 50% MC firewood, then that should be called "green". Over 50% should just be called "bulk water"

 

[Jeffm1]

Gotta love Government and their "tips", no wonder this country is in the state it's in......so who's going to call first!?

Government...sigh. And just think ...they are in charge of healthcare now!

 

[Ashful]

Government...sigh. And just think ...they are in charge of healthcare now!

Oh... no you ditn't!

 

[BrotherBart]

 

[Jeffm1]

Everything will burn . . . even soaking wet wood . . . it all boils down to how long you want to apply heat, how much heat in terms of temp you will apply to the fuel to get it to ignite, how much extra oxygen you need to feed the fire to get a sustained burn and how much you don't mind smoking up the neighborhood.

And don't forget how much creosote you want in your chimney...

 

[xman23]

I'll have to show my daughter that, she works for the board of health in Ohio and had the dept of AG

So what I read, loose pieces of wood is must sold by weight. Seams like you need to soak your wood in water until you get it to 49% moister. Wrap 4 pieces in plastic, $4 a pound, and sell it in gas stations.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Egads . . . someone was either completely incompetent or not thinking when they came up with the idea of 50% being seasoned . . . I mean even for someone using a pre-EPA stove wood that is "half" water would not burn well.

In my neck of the woods in rural Vermont, where half the population heats with wood in big old nearly immortal pre-EPA cast "smoke dragons," the accepted definition of "seasoned" is cut down in the spring, pulled out and cut and split in late summer, early fall.

I know only one other person with an EPA stove and there's only one place I've ever seen woodstacks before fall. I even know people who don't cut down a tree until they're almost out of firewood in wintertime, so they're essentially burning green wood. I've even been gently chastised by oldsters for my dangerous habit of burning actually dry wood.

To sell wood under 25 MC, you'd either have to have a drying kiln or a large lot holding several years with of demand for stacked cords. And you'd have to charge several times the current going rate for firewood.

If the gummint wants more people to use EPA stoves, IMO, they're going to have to do something about the fuel supply problem, like somehow encouraging more kiln-drying operations or something.

 

[Ashful]

Wouldn't the running of large electric kilns fly in the face of the "carbon neutral" nature of heating with wood?

 

[gyrfalcon]

Wouldn't the running of large electric kilns fly in the face of the "carbon neutral" nature of heating with wood?

Never heard of anybody doing that. The ones I know run on ...(wait for it) .... wood!''

 

[Ashful]

Interesting. I've not seen kilns for drying firewood, myself. But, I have been in more than one lumber drying kiln, selecting hardwoods for various projects. Those are all run on electric around here, although I know there are gas kilns closer to the city.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Interesting. I've not seen kilns for drying firewood, myself. But, I have been in more than one lumber drying kiln, selecting hardwoods for various projects. Those are all run on electric around here, although I know there are gas kilns closer to the city.

Well, it's a good question. It's certainly a lot cheaper to dry the wood by burning wood detritus as the heat source. Plus firewood doesn't need to be as dry as construction lumber. But if demand rises dramatically, the additional speed in drying might become necessary and the extra cost only somewhat offset by sales.

There are maybe half a dozen such operations in VT, all of them small and for firewood only, except for one at a big lumberyard. The lumberyard has a very powerful kiln heated by the enormous amounts of scrap wood the regular lumber operations produce, and it dries very large splits down to about 20 MC. (It's fabulous stuff, but very expensive.) The smaller ones only dry generally to around 30 MC-- not really good enough for an EPA stove, but a huge improvement compared to what most people around here are used to burning. I've coaxed and wheedled the one I deal with to get it down to low to mid 20s, but it takes a full week and can only be done in relatively warm weather.

But buying green wood, never mind cutting it yourself, and stacking several years' worth on your property to dry just isn't within the physical means of most people, even if you live in the country, as I do, and have room. I live on a nice sunny SE-facing slope with lots of wind, but my property is just that, sloped. I tried for several years to do it, but the damn stacks fell over repeatedly after a good rain caused the ground to shift, and i finally just gave up.

But my point is that the fuel issue simply hasn't been even thought of, never mind addressed, by the EPA folks, and you can't wean people off of the old smoke dragons and/or bad burning habits until somebody figures out some kind of solution to it. EPA's goal has more to do with reducing particulates for air quality than it does reducing our carbon footprint per se. Iit may be that they figured as the supply of usable pre-EPA stoves gradually dies out, wood-burners will switch to gas or electricity or fuel oil if they can't deal with the EPA stove fuel problem. They're not in it to promote wood-burning, just reducing the amount of crap that goes into the air by people who insist on wood heat.