Fire Danger - The Dark side of the modern synthetic world

[Isaac Carlson]

A properly built balloon frame should last just as long as the alternative assuming fire stops are in place. Leaving fire stops out will turn the place into a chimney.

 

[bholler]

A properly built balloon frame should last just as long as the alternative assuming fire stops are in place. Leaving fire stops out will turn the place into a chimney.

Yes we know that now but when the origonal ballon framed houses like mine where built they did not know that. So no they have no fire stops. See modern stuff like fire stops are not all bad

 

[jharkin]

Yes, I don't like plastic and synthetic food either. The closer it is to our local garden the better.



Some paints are good. Our house was painted 10 years ago with Benjamin Moore paint and it is standing up well so far.

My house IS painted with Benjamin Moore.. Must be the previous owner did not prep well. Even so, my point is that as bad as it was for our health the old linseed oil and white lead based paints of years ago lasted not 10 or 20, but 30-40-50 years.

Ask any professional painter that's been in the biz more than 20 years or any professional window restorer or old house preservationst - modern paints are less durable than the old oil stuff was. The improvements in Latex are cathing up and now that I have switched to Aura my paint jobs are starting to last but its still not quire there. Im just frustrated as the old MooreGlo & stain job by the previous owners is chipping and if I want a new job that lasts Im going to have to strip the whole house to the wood to re-prime with slow dry alkyd primer and a high end exterior paint like Aura. (Some of the restoration pros Ive talked to dont even like BM/SW and push boutique brands like California, Muralo, Farrow& Ball - those are out of my league).

I certainly understand why we need to make these changes for health reasons but it makes maintenance a pain.

 

[jharkin]

Yes we know that now but when the origonal ballon framed houses like mine where built they did not know that. So no they have no fire stops. See modern stuff like fire stops are not all bad

You guys are confusing balloon framing and platform framing. In real baloon framing there where no fire stops originally because the studs ran from the sill to the top plate continuously. On a two story house that meant studs up to 20ft long or more. It also meant that in addition to lacking fire stops the floor is only supported by joists nailed to the studs. Also building a house that way took complicated scaffolding, etc. real balloon framing was used from its development in the 1830s up until 1920 or so. You will find it in Victorian era houses, craftsman's, 4 squares etc. You wont find it in anything WWI vintage or later.

What you are thinking of is modern platform framing. (Used exclusively from about 1930 on) Build the house one level at a time and construct the second story walls on top of the top plate of the first floor. This gives you automatic fire stopping and a much more secure support for the upper story floors. And no scaffolds required.

 

[jharkin]

There will be plenty of houses built now that will last 200 years if they are maintained properly and there were many houses built 200 years ago that failed for many reasons. I live in a 100 yr old wood sided house and i love it but it takes allot more work that a modern house. And if you are painting every 5 years you need to do better prep or buy better paint i am going on 9 years on my last paint job and it is just starting to need some touch up in spots.

Again , have to agree to disagree. I don't see OSB sheathing and vinyl siding lasting 50 years, much less 200. Same thing with windows... I have hundred year old wood windows that once I reglazed them and painted them look like new. Ive seen 200 year old windows that can still be refinished. No double pane vinyl window made today will last that long... even the wooden ones are made of new growth wood that just isn't as durable. Or the seals will fail, or the hardware will break and they just will not be reparable.

I think you can build new that lasts - but its prohibitively expensive for a lot of folks.

 

[jharkin]

So we are waaaaay off topic here. Back to the original video. The question stands - does it bother anybody that synthetic materials makes our homes a death trap in fire? I thought that all this stuff was supposed to be infused with fire retadants?

Thoughts on that?

 

[Ashful]

You're lucky where you live..I had to travel 450 KMs to bring my $300 samsung TV to get it fixed: it wasn't working out of the box. lol.

I understand where you're coming from. But , from my what I observe and take note of, we toss alot more stuff today than we did back in the day. INcluding husbands and wives

Andrew

As an electrical engineer who designs product, I can tell you that if the TV were made to be serviceable, you'd be paying much more than $300 for it. Between the cost of trained diagnostic and repair technicians, and the inherent cost of making a design more serviceable, complex electronics typically cannot be serviced for the cost of manufacture.

 

[Ashful]

I hear ya, but the original post is that modern = more dangerous.

OP was that modern materials in our homes burn at higher temperatures and faster than traditional materials. This is true. It had nothing to do with cars or cell phones!

 

[Ashful]

So we are waaaaay off topic here. Back to the original video. The question stands - does it bother anybody that synthetic materials makes our homes a death trap in fire? I thought that all this stuff was supposed to be infused with fire retadants?

Thoughts on that?

I've seen some old framed houses go up pretty spectacularly, particular Victorian-era balloon framed structures. I've also seen demonstrations of 1960s / 1970s couches go up at enormously high temperatures, thanks to polyester and foam. I'd guess we're safer today than 40 years ago. As to whether safer today than 150 years ago, before synthetics? Probably depends on the exact situation. I think you're much less likely to have a fire today, than in the days prior to synthetics, which is a factor worth considering.

 

[sportbikerider78]

vinyl siding is a horrible industry and a terrible product. I used to install it. It may look "nice" if you like a house that looks like tupperware, but what happens when it burns or gets removed, then what? nobody recycles it because it gets brittle and faded. We just filled a dumpster with it last year and we hated to do it, but what else do you do? I like a wod house with wood shingles and no drywall, no plastic. My great grandfather build the farm house from local trees and it is still as solid as the year he built it. Lets see modern houses last 200 years. I prefer vehicles from the 80's and 90's, because they had some of the newer technology, but were still simple, easy, and inexpensive to repair when they did eventually need it. I like my 1991 f250 over the newer trucks.

Codes are the issue here, not the solution.

It is laughable that we are forced to build a home of sticks and mud and then put a tar and stone roof on it. Totally ridiculous.

Lack of technology in building because of regulation is the issue. Plastic is NOT high technology guys. Plastic has been around forever.

 

[jharkin]

I've seen some old framed houses go up pretty spectacularly, particular Victorian-era balloon framed structures. I've also seen demonstrations of 1960s / 1970s couches go up at enormously high temperatures, thanks to polyester and foam. I'd guess we're safer today than 40 years ago. As to whether safer today than 150 years ago, before synthetics? Probably depends on the exact situation. I think you're much less likely to have a fire today, than in the days prior to synthetics, which is a factor worth considering.

Yeah, you make a good point there.. I guess the risk of starting a house fire is a lot lower today... Certainly in the 1700s with lots of fireplaces, dirty chimneys and wooden shake roofs that danger was there.

And yep on the baloon framing chimney issue. I guess yo could say you where safer before (timer) or after (platform) the balloon era.

 

[begreen]

This is interesting. Whatever we are doing it appears to be working. Source: NFPA
(broken link removed to http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-in-the-us/overall-fire-problem/fire-loss-in-the-united-states)



"The total number of fires continues to be on a downward trend, as does the number of outside fires, structure fires and vehicle fires. In Figure 2, the number of fires per thousand population, the frequency of fire incident is much higher in communities with less than 5,000 population."

 

[begreen]

Codes are the issue here, not the solution.

It is laughable that we are forced to build a home of sticks and mud and then put a tar and stone roof on it. Totally ridiculous.

Lack of technology in building because of regulation is the issue. Plastic is NOT high technology guys. Plastic has been around forever.

Fire codes are very likely a part of what explains the decline in structural fires and loss of life since the 1970s. A few generations of plastic is not forever. Vinyl siding didn't show up until the 60s and plastic trim in the 1990s I think.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I mean building codes.
You can't build any structure you like, no matter how safe, if it is not to code.

 

[begreen]

True true. I don't think you could build an uninsulated cement block house any more, not that I would want to live in one.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I love the way Europeans build homes. Insulated block with massive walls. Small wood stove to heat a huge home, because of the insulation. Lots of hardwood features. Tile roof. Sure they are expensive, but man, do they last.

 

[bholler]

You guys are confusing balloon framing and platform framing. In real baloon framing there where no fire stops originally because the studs ran from the sill to the top plate continuously. On a two story house that meant studs up to 20ft long or more. It also meant that in addition to lacking fire stops the floor is only supported by joists nailed to the studs. Also building a house that way took complicated scaffolding, etc. real balloon framing was used from its development in the 1830s up until 1920 or so. You will find it in Victorian era houses, craftsman's, 4 squares etc. You wont find it in anything WWI vintage or later.

no i know exactly what balloon framing is i live in a balloon framed house. No firestops at all but it is filled with blown in cellulose which is a good firestop so i am fine on the exterior walls but not the interior structural walls

 

[begreen]

I love the way Europeans build homes. Insulated block with massive walls. Small wood stove to heat a huge home, because of the insulation. Lots of hardwood features. Tile roof. Sure they are expensive, but man, do they last.

That's possible to do in our county. It does make for a solid, well insulated home.

 

[bholler]

Again , have to agree to disagree. I don't see OSB sheathing and vinyl siding lasting 50 years, much less 200. Same thing with windows... I have hundred year old wood windows that once I reglazed them and painted them look like new. Ive seen 200 year old windows that can still be refinished. No double pane vinyl window made today will last that long... even the wooden ones are made of new growth wood that just isn't as durable. Or the seals will fail, or the hardware will break and they just will not be reparable.
I think you can build new that lasts - but its prohibitively expensive for a lot of folks.

I never said that everything on the house would last yes it will need resided periodically at that time some sheathing will probably need replaced. But old houses need painted repaired ect. And i agree that most new windows wont last but there are still some very good ones made. The fact is every house if you want it to last will need maintenance. The maintenance=nce is different old houses take allot of smaller stuff more often and modern ones will need big stuff less often but it is a trade off

 

[Ashful]

I love the way Europeans build homes. Insulated block with massive walls. Small wood stove to heat a huge home, because of the insulation. Lots of hardwood features. Tile roof. Sure they are expensive, but man, do they last.

Not sure how much time you spend in Europe, but as someone who does (just got back two weeks ago, actually), I can say your assumptions of how they build today are a little old. I've been in more than one new OSB on stick frame house in Germany, all built since 2000. If you go back 20 years, then your statement is correct, but they're following right in our footsteps today.

 

[jharkin]

I never said that everything on the house would last yes it will need resided periodically at that time some sheathing will probably need replaced. But old houses need painted repaired ect. And i agree that most new windows wont last but there are still some very good ones made. The fact is every house if you want it to last will need maintenance. The maintenance=nce is different old houses take allot of smaller stuff more often and modern ones will need big stuff less often but it is a trade off

That in my mind is the essential difference in mindset between old and new way of doing things.

The old house gets maintained...
- When the siding looks bad you repaint it
- When the windows get drafty you re-glaze them
- When the floor gets scratched up you refinish it
and so on. Its a lot of work but its still the same house maintaining the original character.

The new house gets replaced...
- When the siding looks bad you tear it off and put new siding on
- when the windows get drafty you rip them out and put new ones in
- When the floor gets scratched up you rip it up and lay down new floor.

Sure you can keep the structure going indefinitely but can we really say he house lasted as long when its mostly new parts?

 

[bholler]

That in my mind is the essential difference in mindset between old and new way of doing things.
The old house gets maintained...
- When the siding looks bad you repaint it
- When the windows get drafty you re-glaze them
- When the floor gets scratched up you refinish it
and so on. Its a lot of work but its still the same house maintaining the original character.
The new house gets replaced...
- When the siding looks bad you tear it off and put new siding on
- when the windows get drafty you rip them out and put new ones in
- When the floor gets scratched up you rip it up and lay down new floor.
Sure you can keep the structure going indefinitely but can we really say he house lasted as long when its mostly new parts?

Well i agree to some extent but you are also a little jaded you can paint vinyl or aluminum siding and extend its life quite a bit. You can re gasket good new windows. There are still allot of wood floors being put in that can be refinished. And the biggest difference is with vinyl or aluminum you will get 30 to 40 years with no maintenance other than cleaning with a good paint job you might get 10 years. I agree most new windows are crap but there are still very good ones made that will last a long time and have serviceable parts. As far as flooring goes there is good flooring and crap flooring just like there always has been. I would like to add that there were crappy houses built a long time ago that are long gone just like the crappy new ones will be. Build with quality products and maintain them and it will last.

 

[Dix]

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[Ashful]

I would like to add that there were crappy houses built a long time ago that are long gone just like the crappy new ones will be.

Very well stated, and true, but which burn faster?

 

[firefighterjake]

This is interesting. Whatever we are doing it appears to be working. Source: NFPA
(broken link removed to http://www.nfpa.org/research/reports-and-statistics/fires-in-the-us/overall-fire-problem/fire-loss-in-the-united-states)

View attachment 163689

"The total number of fires continues to be on a downward trend, as does the number of outside fires, structure fires and vehicle fires. In Figure 2, the number of fires per thousand population, the frequency of fire incident is much higher in communities with less than 5,000 population."

Yeah . . . it's me . . . doing the fire safety education thing.

Actually, pretty sure it is a combination of building/fire safety codes, better fire safety education/awareness and a change in tech -- whether it be home sprinklers, smoke detectors, GFCIs, space heaters that shut off when they tip over, etc.