Financially does burning wood even make sense now or future?

[begreen]

Yes, lots of variables not accounted for in the general formula. There is a big difference in your log load cost and what we pay for a cord. We have solar offsetting our electrical costs, which should be factored in too. I don't run the current system at cold temps but with a new system we might. I will at least try it and will track the costs on that day. Anything below 25º is rare here, so we might never get into that lower COP. We have a 6 yr old olive tree that agrees.

 

[mellow]

Not sure how you can quantify it but injures from wood processing is a factor as well. I know I have busted myself up trying to haul rounds larger than I should have onto the truck/splitter and now paying the price.

 

[EbS-P]

That has to be the worst calculator I've ever seen. Way too much black box trickery to push their agenda. You can't even see or set the efficiencies of the various appliances. They obviously penalize ducted heat pumps vs. ductless with a black box duct loss figure that is not shown.

There are much better calculators out there. Much better and without a likely bias.

Just click the “see details” box. It’s simple that why I like it. COP 2.7 for a ductless system seems ok to me.

 

[yooperdave]

Short answer to the OP's question.....Yes.

YMMV. Lest face it, burning isn't for everyone.

 

[begreen]

Not sure how you can quantify it but injures from wood processing is a factor as well. I know I have busted myself up trying to haul rounds larger than I should have onto the truck/splitter and now paying the price.

Yes, there is that too. My chiropractor finally said, look, you may have been born with a 1 ton truck body, but after 300,000 miles you're more like a 1/2 ton with shot springs and shocks. 😆

 

[Shrewboy]

Heres my reasons:
1. if the power goes out, I can keep my pipes from freezing
2. I have access to a lot of firewood on my own property
3. When it gets extremely cold, the woodstove helps me to warm up. I sit next to it for 15mins, then go back outside to work on projects or whatever.

People say they burn wood to stop using fossil fuels, but wood is still releasing co2 and some harmful particulates into the air. However, the amount of fuel required to transport the firewood is just the food I eat for energy... instead of a massive network of diesel trucks carrying tons of fuel.

 

[EbS-P]

I do think looking to the future wood heat will be less relied on. Tax incentives for energy efficiency improvements and heatpumps will reduce the amount of wood burned. Building codes hopefully will reduced heating loads considerably so that just a heatpump is needed and wood can just be supplemental.

But the reality is a majority of house housing stock is over 50 years old and in poor shape from an insulation and air sealing point of view. And many owners won’t see the ROI of efficiency upgrades as worth the up front cost.

New stoves are clean. And wood is renewable, but I don’t see burning wood as carbon neutral. Sure all the wood I burn would have rotted or been turned into mulch or compost but I bet I’m releasing the CO2 at a much faster rate than natural decay would have and creating more particulate pollution.
National Average electricity rates are predicted to remain nearly constant over the 20-30 years. ( Im pretty sure mine will go up 20-30% in the next 5 years. ) Think about that it’s not going to keep price with average inflation…. Electricity is going to get cheaper ( inflation adjusted)! Wood, saws, stoves those will all certainly keep up or outpace inflation. So cost effectiveness of wood will have some peak VS electricity. Some it really cold places heatpumps might not make cents but on average I do think wood heat will cost more in the future.

 

[farmwithjunk]

I do think looking to the future wood heat will be less relied on. Tax incentives for energy efficiency improvements and heatpumps will reduce the amount of wood burned. Building codes hopefully will reduced heating loads considerably so that just a heatpump is needed and wood can just be supplemental.

But the reality is a majority of house housing stock is over 50 years old and in poor shape from an insulation and air sealing point of view. And many owners won’t see the ROI of efficiency upgrades as worth the up front cost.

New stoves are clean. And wood is renewable, but I don’t see burning wood as carbon neutral. Sure all the wood I burn would have rotted or been turned into mulch or compost but I bet I’m releasing the CO2 at a much faster rate than natural decay would have and creating more particulate pollution.
National Average electricity rates are predicted to remain nearly constant over the 20-30 years. ( Im pretty sure mine will go up 20-30% in the next 5 years. ) Think about that it’s not going to keep price with average inflation…. Electricity is going to get cheaper ( inflation adjusted)! Wood, saws, stoves those will all certainly keep up or outpace inflation. So cost effectiveness of wood will have some peak VS electricity. Some it really cold places heatpumps might not make cents but on average I do think wood heat will cost more in the future.

I got a tax credit on my stove for 2022, I'll get one for my heat pump and insulation for 2023.

So many home efficiency upgrades aren't even difficult or expensive like air sealing. I added 36 bags of cellulose on top of my R30 for less than $600. Significant difference before and after with the thermal camera. Caulking and foam around the rim joists/base plate less than $100 but found a lot of air leakage. I looked at the ROI the other way, spend the money up front to get the maximum return, which is why I added the heatpump when the house had electric baseboard. Triple the efficiency at 50F but still more than double below freezing.

My power company was offering free blower door tests which mine was a 7, before any sealing, and it will be 50 years old this decade.

Heatpump tech is already here and easily accessible for any US climate but many people still think they don't work below 40F. I don't understand why anyone would install a forced air oil furnace these days but some still are.

 

[brenndatomu]

I do think looking to the future wood heat will be less relied on

Probably, people are short sighted. Once people live through a week or two with no power, some might realize why tearing that old wood stove out was not so smart...

 

[farmwithjunk]

Probably, people are short sighted. Once people live through a week or two with no power, some might realize why tearing that old wood stove out was not so smart...

While that is a valid PRO for a wood stove, thats not burning wood for cost savings either. In my case I have a 15kw generator for the diesel tractor and 300 gallon tank. I could run my entire property including the heat pump. A few hours of running per day would be all it would take to heat, keep food cold, charge stuff and get a few things done.

 

[Sticker]

That has to be the worst calculator I've ever seen. Way too much black box trickery to push their agenda. You can't even see or set the efficiencies of the various appliances. They obviously penalize ducted heat pumps vs. ductless with a black box duct loss figure that is not shown.

There are much better calculators out there. Much better and without a likely bias.

I've spent the last 30 hours researching these exact issues. As a profession, I work in a lab that tests efficiency of heat pumps.

When we built our new home last year we went with three sources of heat. First was a heat pump. At 12 cents per kw and a 410% efficiency when compared to electric resistance heat if we only operate down to 50 degrees this is by far the cheapest heat source. Next , for cooler days, we picked a 93% efficient propane furnace. The furnace can run on a very small generator if needed (propane generator). Last, we picked a free standing wood stove in the event of the apocalypse and it has a flat surface for cooking as well as being 83% efficient and requires no electricity to operate.
So looking at their calculations, I do not agree with how close some get to resistance heat, making me wonder if it was a green or utility based bias to the chart.

My results per 100k btu of net heat are:

1-natural gas @ 89 cents per therm (106,000 btu) @ 93% efficient furnace is $0.90 per 100k.
2-heat pump / geothermal at 4.1 COP (heat pump not ran below 50 degrees) is $0.93 per 100k.
3-wood @ $200/cord (4391 lbs dry) 5,700 btu per lb 83% efficient takes 21.13 lbs $0.97 per 100k
4-Heat pump, high efficiency ran not below 25 degrees (3.1 COP) $1.23 per 100k
5-Propane ($1.30/gallon) 93% efficient $1.31 per 100k
6- wood pellets 40 lbs (8,600 btu/ lb) @ $7 bag with 80% efficiency is $2.51 per 100k
7- electric resistance @$0.13 / kw is $3.81 per 100k

 

[brenndatomu]

3-wood @ $200/cord (4391 lbs dry) 5,700 btu per lb 83% efficient takes 21.13 lbs $0.97 per 100k

What kind of wood...or maybe a better question is what was the moisture content for this weight and equation?

 

[Sticker]

What kind of wood...or a better question is what was the moisture content for this weight?

I burn Hickory or Oak primarily, but occasionally anything I get out of the fence row. I looked up White Oak dried to 15-18% MC and that was the weight value they gave me per Google.

The one thing i struggle to understand is why a lb of wood through the stove produces a gross value of 5,700 btu per lb and wood pellets are listed at anywhere from 8000 - 9000 per lb. I assume it is the extra air and more complete combustion in the pellet?

 

[bigealta]

Yup wood species and moisture content and many other factors will change the wood running numbers.
And add back in both the extra cost and repair of the high efficiency furnace. That's gonna add Much more to the total than just the running costs.

Service calls, and those variable speed blowers are super costly.

 

[NHWS]

My results per 100k btu of net heat are:

Thanks. I've been interested in this kind of comparison, particularly between NG and heat pumps. Obviously there are a number of other variables, but even a general ballpark estimate is helpful.

 

[farmwithjunk]

I've spent the last 30 hours researching these exact issues. As a profession, I work in a lab that tests efficiency of heat pumps.

When we built our new home last year we went with three sources of heat. First was a heat pump. At 12 cents per kw and a 410% efficiency when compared to electric resistance heat if we only operate down to 50 degrees this is by far the cheapest heat source. Next , for cooler days, we picked a 93% efficient propane furnace. The furnace can run on a very small generator if needed (propane generator). Last, we picked a free standing wood stove in the event of the apocalypse and it has a flat surface for cooking as well as being 83% efficient and requires no electricity to operate.
So looking at their calculations, I do not agree with how close some get to resistance heat, making me wonder if it was a green or utility based bias to the chart.

My results per 100k btu of net heat are:

1-natural gas @ 89 cents per therm (106,000 btu) @ 93% efficient furnace is $0.90 per 100k.
2-heat pump / geothermal at 4.1 COP (heat pump not ran below 50 degrees) is $0.93 per 100k.
3-wood @ $200/cord (4391 lbs dry) 5,700 btu per lb 83% efficient takes 21.13 lbs $0.97 per 100k
4-Heat pump, high efficiency ran not below 25 degrees (3.1 COP) $1.23 per 100k
5-Propane ($1.30/gallon) 93% efficient $1.31 per 100k
6- wood pellets 40 lbs (8,600 btu/ lb) @ $7 bag with 80% efficiency is $2.51 per 100k
7- electric resistance @$0.13 / kw is $3.81 per 100k

Good work on the calculations.

With today's cold weather heat pumps it wouldn't make sense to have propane furnace for most people.

I've been able to go this far into heating season without using electric heat but will need to next week with 17/4F forecast. That said, I dont know if the math would make sense if you account for the price of a wood stove/pipe and accessories vs that $8000 in electricity. Probably not for a well insulated house, which mine is avg/below current standards.

 

[begreen]

I would love to get firewood for $200 a cord. To get hardwood at that price would be a gift. It's double or triple the price here depending on whether it's softwood or hardwood.

With today's cold weather heat pumps it wouldn't make sense to have propane furnace for most people.

Especially in milder climate zones. Still, it helps to have a backup in case something goes awry with the heatpump and it's out of commission for an extended period of time.

 

[Sticker]

I would love to get firewood for $200 a cord. To get hardwood at that price would be a gift. It's double or triple the price here depending on whether it's softwood or hardwood.

Especially in milder climate zones. Still, it helps to have a backup in case something goes awry with the heatpump and it's out of commission for an extended period of time.

I agree on the price challenge. I set it at $200 though in our area $300 for good wood well split and still green is more of the going rate.

 

[Highbeam]

Last, we picked a free standing wood stove in the event of the apocalypse and it has a flat surface for cooking as well as being 83% efficient and requires no electricity to operate.

What stove has 83% efficiency? The highest on the EPA list is just 81%. Not much difference to 83% but you seem like a details kind of person!

 

[Sticker]

Good work on the calculations.

With today's cold weather heat pumps it wouldn't make sense to have propane furnace for most people.

I've been able to go this far into heating season without using electric heat but will need to next week with 17/4F forecast. That said, I dont know if the math would make sense if you account for the price of a wood stove/pipe and accessories vs that $8000 in electricity. Probably not for a well insulated house, which mine is avg/below current standards.

Electric heat is the most dependable and longest lasting serviceable system with no (or little) need for maintenance. Our last home was built in 1963 and still has 90% of the original baseboard heaters.

One thing I did not attempt to do in my calculations was add depreciation into the equation.

For propane, tank and furnace combine for around $8,000 and have a life expectancy of say 24 years. That would be $333 per year in depreciation. Add a service call at $200 per year and we are at $533 before borrowed money even enters the conversation.

For wood though, when we built our house the brick and chimney work were $14,000 and the stove itself with flue pipe was $6,000. So a nice 20k of borrowed money, annual interest of $1,000 plus life expectancy of perhaps 12 years on the stove ($500 / year depreciation) and 56 on the brick and chimney ($250 depreciation) . That's a pretty serious extra cost to either system. Personal situation plays a huge part of such calculations which is why I left depreciation and interest off the board.

So I say all that to agree with you, even if you could save with wood or gas, if you have a working electric system it makes zero sense in terms of dollars to install one to save a few hundred in cost of fuel but give up several hundred more in depreciation and interest nit to mention labor in the case of wood.

Wood is as many times mentioned on here, a hobby or lifestyle. Or in our case, insurance against power failure in the country.

 

[Sticker]

What stove has 83% efficiency? The highest on the EPA list is just 81%. Not much difference to 83% but you seem like a details kind of person!

Our new Vermont Castings Encore is listed at 83%. I completely understand that is not what I am getting here at home.

 

[Caw]

I think there's something to be said for the heavy upfront cost of wood versus the constant nagging bills of fossil fuels systems. Yes the numbers may be equal or favor one over the other but I don't have any bills with wood. That initial investment money is gone and spent. Moving forward I just spend about $500 annually for heat which is what most folks around here are paying a month. I could chop that down to $300 if I did my own sweeping.

I really like not seeing a bill every month even if the savings isnt crazy over the long haul. The only "bill" I pay is my time and effort which is enjoyable and good for me most of the time. Then there's all the other ancillary things that have been covered. Not relying on fossil fuels, warmth, ambiance, etc.

We have a heat pump and solar panels here as well which pairs perfectly with wood heat. My pump is older and the resistance kicks on at 37 degrees so we use it for 40+ days and wood for 40 and below. Sometimes we'll light the stove if it's 42 and cloudy with no solar load to help out the pump. Getting a new higher efficiency model at lower temps is on the agenda. Ours is fun 2006 and runs on r-22 so we're treating it like a used car.

I love the heat pump. It's effective and very efficient but wood heat just hits differently than forced hot (warm from heat pumps) air from any system. I agree with the sentiment it's a lifestyle but it's honestly cheaper in style areas, even vs the heat pump, where power is expensive. I won't get a big credit going laterally from heat pump to heat pump. It's going to cost me a bunch of $. But I'll never burn fossil fuels again if I can help it. Solar, heat pump, and wood for life... Or until I get too old to do it.

 

[NHWS]

insurance against power failure in the country.

That was my primary reason for installing a wood stove. Now that I have it, chain saw, splitter, etc., and since I get wood for free / nearly free (other than c/s/s effort, which I count as exercise), wood heat is a nice way to reduce my NG bill by around 3/4.

My NG furnace is getting old and cranky, and I'm thinking about what to replace it with sometime in the next year or three. Haven't yet figured out whether the replacement will be NG or a heat pump.

 

[Pinesmoke]

I think there's something to be said for the heavy upfront cost of wood versus the constant nagging bills of fossil fuels systems. Yes the numbers may be equal or favor one over the other but I don't have any bills with wood. That initial investment money is gone and spent. Moving forward I just spend about $500 annually for heat which is what most folks around here are paying a month. I could chop that down to $300 if I did my own sweeping.

I really like not seeing a bill every month even if the savings isnt crazy over the long haul. The only "bill" I pay is my time and effort which is enjoyable and good for me most of the time. Then there's all the other ancillary things that have been covered. Not relying on fossil fuels, warmth, ambiance, etc.

We have a heat pump and solar panels here as well which pairs perfectly with wood heat. My pump is older and the resistance kicks on at 37 degrees so we use it for 40+ days and wood for 40 and below. Sometimes we'll light the stove if it's 42 and cloudy with no solar load to help out the pump. Getting a new higher efficiency model at lower temps is on the agenda. Ours is fun 2006 and runs on r-22 so we're treating it like a used car.

I love the heat pump. It's effective and very efficient but wood heat just hits differently than forced hot (warm from heat pumps) air from any system. I agree with the sentiment it's a lifestyle but it's honestly cheaper in style areas, even vs the heat pump, where power is expensive. I won't get a big credit going laterally from heat pump to heat pump. It's going to cost me a bunch of $. But I'll never burn fossil fuels again if I can help it. Solar, heat pump, and wood for life... Or until I get too old to do it.

When you get ready for a new HP do you research and talk around. I'm on my 3rd Trane HP system in this new place and before I signed up I found several things out from industry people I know.

Do not get the variable speed compressor units. As of now they are junk according to several friends in the biz. They say every time they turn around they are replacing them. A local Trane dealer I get commercial units off of said " they are trash, dont go there " Ok

The higher seer units, above 17ish, have alot of inter-unit communication going on. The local Trane company owner said "if you were in town i would put on in but up on the mountain there is no way i would. Too much goes wrong with them to justify the efficiency and up there you would be without too much" Ok

I ended up with a full Trane 2 stage system and it's being hacksawed off next week. We brought it on line last May and it would not heat, short cycled on starting. It was too warm outside to really test it so we held off till this fall. 5 service calls, more parts replaced than I can believe as a technical guy and I have been burning propane when I'm not burning wood.

Do your research.

I keep hearing the chatter about "low temp HP" on new propane based refrigerants. Seems to be a lot of instability in the current state of the art, I'm no where near thinking an entirely new technology tangent will be solid anytime soon.

 

[Southwestpaburner]

1998 gas bills were 140-175 in the winter and 50-85 the other months ,next year 1st stove 400, 15 ft of double wall 150 plus another 150 in connector pieces,the double wall was bought from a co worker really cheap,gas bills went to 28 a month budget pay, 2018 new stove 2400, no additional costs I figure I’ve saved over 100$ a month for 26 yrs ,that’s 31,200$ savings yea there is gas oil chainsaw splitter but I think I’m ahead a good bit