Fancy pants 2 stroke chain saw oil?

[JustWood]

Big_Redd, I think you are the one here with the refinery background, right? I appreciate any information and am willing to learn. I say that without sarcasm.

My understanding is from my chemistry degree and materials science & engineering work. Although this doesn't make me an expert in this particular field and I have not specialized in petrol-chemicals and formulations, I should be able to understand any reference link you provide. Of course, this is an internet forum and you could say I'm fabricating my background. In fact, any of us could have that skepticism about one another, so that's why I provided a link to a reference and not my own writing/papers. Please provide a link so I (we all) can learn.

Reference link: http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/OIL/oil.html
Excerpt:

Water cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water cooled engine oils. These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to provide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. High levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air cooled engines can cause engine deposits. These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs., form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition. On the other hand, the only way to protect air cooled two-cycle engines against piston ring sticking at their high peak temperatures is to include some detergent additives in the oil formulation. Detergents provide high temperature deposit control not available from other additives used in the oil. However, in the air cooled engine, any ash deposits that could form from the detergents are dislodged by engine vibration and exhausted from the engine.

I'll try to find a better reference to discuss....

I'm also interested in more info as I have nearly 2 cases of outboard oil I got at a yard sale for next to nothing that I'm about to start using.

 

[TreePointer]

Also, I do understand that there are special formulations (multi-purpose) that are supposed to work fine in either type of 2-cycle engine.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Has anyone on this board EVER seen an OIL RELATED failure? Ever?

I never have. Not in outboards, chainsaws, or motorcycles (lots of hours with all three). And, I don't know anyone who has.

Straight gassed? Yes.

Jetted lean? Yes.

Failed because of type of oil in an otherwise properly tuned engine? No. Never.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Big_Redd, I think you are the one here with the refinery background, right? I appreciate any information and am willing to learn. I say that without sarcasm.

My understanding is from my chemistry degree and materials science & engineering work. Although this doesn't make me an expert in this particular field and I have not specialized in petrol-chemicals and formulations, I should be able to understand any reference link you provide. Of course, this is an internet forum and you could say I'm fabricating my background. In fact, any of us could have that skepticism about one another, so that's why I provided a link to a reference and not my own writing/papers. Please provide a link so I (we all) can learn.

Reference link: http://www.ultralighthomepage.com/OIL/oil.html
Excerpt:

Water cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water cooled engine oils. These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to provide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. High levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air cooled engines can cause engine deposits. These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs., form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition. On the other hand, the only way to protect air cooled two-cycle engines against piston ring sticking at their high peak temperatures is to include some detergent additives in the oil formulation. Detergents provide high temperature deposit control not available from other additives used in the oil. However, in the air cooled engine, any ash deposits that could form from the detergents are dislodged by engine vibration and exhausted from the engine.

I'll try to find a better reference to discuss....

I'm also interested in more info as I have nearly 2 cases of outboard oil I got at a yard sale for next to nothing that I'm about to start using.

I have burned gallons on TCW-3 in non-outboard 2 strokes. Your saws will love it.

 

[TreePointer]

Has anyone on this board EVER seen an OIL RELATED failure? Ever?

I never have. Not in outboards, chainsaws, or motorcycles (lots of hours with all three). And, I don't know anyone who has.

Straight gassed? Yes.

Jetted lean? Yes.

Failed because of type of oil in an otherwise properly tuned engine? No. Never.

Link?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Has anyone on this board EVER seen an OIL RELATED failure? Ever?

I never have. Not in outboards, chainsaws, or motorcycles (lots of hours with all three). And, I don't know anyone who has.

Straight gassed? Yes.

Jetted lean? Yes.

Failed because of type of oil in an otherwise properly tuned engine? No. Never.

Link?

So I guess the number for you is zero as well?

I just googled "premix oil related engine failures"

Zero articles on "I used the wrong oil and burned up my engine"

 

[TreePointer]

In an effort to get statements from qualified persons (more knowledgeable than I am) and not uncontrolled data or anecdotal evidence, I've just put in some requests and will make more requests for technical papers (and otherwise) to various OPE manufacturers and oil companies regarding this issue. I'll post the information as soon as I get replies. Maybe I'll make a new discussion topic for this.

Here are MORE LINKS that support NOT USING WATER-COOLED OIL in chainsaws:

Reference link: http://husqvarna.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/122/kw/2_cycle_oil
Excerpt:

Can I use outboard two stroke motor oil in my air cooled outdoor power equipment?
NO, outboard two stroke motor oil designed for water cooled engines does not provide the needed protection or lubrication for two stroke air cooled engines.

Reference link (any modern Stihl chainsaw manual - MS362 manual p.28, PDF page 30): (broken link removed to http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/MS362_Manual.pdf)
Excerpt:

Do not use BIA or TCW rated (two-stroke water cooled) mix oils or other mix oils that state they are for use in both water cooled and air cooled engines (e.g., outboard motors, snowmobiles, chain saws, mopeds, etc.).

 

[Bigg_Redd]

In an effort to get statements from qualified persons (more knowledgeable than I am) and not uncontrolled data or anecdotal evidence, I've just put in some requests and will make more requests for technical papers (and otherwise) to various OPE manufacturers and oil companies regarding this issue. I'll post the information as soon as I get replies. Maybe I'll make a new discussion topic for this.

Here are MORE LINKS that support NOT USING AIR-COOLED OIL:

Reference link: http://husqvarna.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/122/kw/2_cycle_oil
Excerpt:

Can I use outboard two stroke motor oil in my air cooled outdoor power equipment?
NO, outboard two stroke motor oil designed for water cooled engines does not provide the needed protection or lubrication for two stroke air cooled engines.

Reference link (any modern Stihl chainsaw manual - MS362 manual p.28, PDF page 30): (broken link removed to http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/MS362_Manual.pdf)
Excerpt:

Do not use BIA or TCW rated (two-stroke water cooled) mix oils or other mix oils that state they are for use in both water cooled and air cooled engines (e.g., outboard motors, snowmobiles, chain saws, mopeds, etc.).

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

 

[TreePointer]

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

Yea, but that statement doesn't necessarily mean that Stihl (and other OPE manufacturers) approves TC-W3 oils for all their equipment, especially the new strato engines and 4-mix engines.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

Yea, but that statement doesn't necessarily mean that Stihl (and other OPE manufacturers) approves TC-W3 oils for all their equipment, especially the new strato engines and 4-mix engines.

But we're talking about a 044 here, no? And do you think the Stihl branded oil is differently formulated for the fancy new low emissions saws? Like they sent new oil to dealers especially for the new saws? Really? You think that?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

Yea, but that statement doesn't necessarily mean that Stihl (and other OPE manufacturers) approves TC-W3 oils for all their equipment, especially the new strato engines and 4-mix engines.

Also, API and JASCO ratings are not the be-all and end-all, but they are the only standards by which premix oil is actually tested and rated.

 

[TreePointer]

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

Yea, but that statement doesn't necessarily mean that Stihl (and other OPE manufacturers) approves TC-W3 oils for all their equipment, especially the new strato engines and 4-mix engines.

But we're talking about a 044 here, no? And do you think the Stihl branded oil is differently formulated for the fancy new low emissions saws? Like they sent new oil to dealers especially for the new saws? Really? You think that?

I never stated that Stihl branded oil is differently formulated for new low emissions laws. The new engines and overall designs are. There is still a "no TCW oils" statement for those engines. What I was attempting to state is that it's even more important now to use the right oil. Stihl dealer techs. will tell you that even regular Stihl oil (orange bottle) will cause problems in the 4-Mix engines--they've seen it many times. And, no, when it comes to the 4-Mix engines, it's not just a ploy by Stihl to get us to buy more expensive full-synthetic Stihl Ultra.

Here's the unanswered question: Why does Stihl say no TCW oils in the MS-362 manual?

 

[TreePointer]

FACT: All TCW-3 oils exceed both JASCO and API standards for premix oil.

Yea, but that statement doesn't necessarily mean that Stihl (and other OPE manufacturers) approves TC-W3 oils for all their equipment, especially the new strato engines and 4-mix engines.

Also, API and JASCO ratings are not the be-all and end-all, but they are the only standards by which premix oil is actually tested and rated.

They are the only industry wide standards that are recognized if you want to pay them money to have it printed on your oil bottle. It doesn't preclude Stihl or any other OPE mfg. from using a higher standard or special requirement on their own equipment. There's no reason that Stihl can't say API and JASCO rated oils are okay as long as they are not rated for water cooled engines.

 

[TreePointer]

Here's the unanswered question: Why does Stihl say no TCW oils in the MS-362 manual?

That ^

 

[MasterMech]

Here's the unanswered question: Why does Stihl say no TCW oils in the MS-362 manual?

That ^

Because TCW is short for Two-Cycle Water-cooled. The standard ONLY applies to WATER-COOLED engines. Is somebody running a water-cooled 044 here? Just because a good oil is TCW-3 certified does NOT mean it is appropriate for use in an AIR-COOLED engine. You may be indeed using a TCW-3 oil with "no-problems" but I've been eating at Mickey D's for decades with "no problems" too. ;-) Any complications from using a TCW oil in air-cooled engines are likely to show up late in the product's life-cycle and be blamed on bad fuel, operator error, invading aliens, etc. or just be written off as normal wear & tear on an engine that's X years old.

FACT: Air-cooled engines ARE designed with "looser" mechanical clearances than their water-cooled counterparts because of the greater operating temperatures they must withstand, not because they are "more demanding."

FACT: TCW rated oils are NOT NECESSARILY designed to deal with the significantly greater temperatures found internally on air-cooled, high-RPM engines like the one found on the 044 or any modern chainsaw/trimmer/blower. Granddad's old Homelite Super XL (Blue Case of course!) was just fine running on 30wt non-detergent but adventures over 8K RPM were rare.

BTW: This thread would be much more reader-friendly if y'all could combine multiple thoughts into one post. :smirk:

 

[rkshed]

30 years of riding and racing 2 stroke motorcycles in the woods. I use Golden Spectro in my saws now, ssame as my bikes.

Really? I always used Klotz in my bikes and occasionally Maxima castor (only because of the sweet smell...lol)

Back to topic. I have the baddest saw around, a Poulan Pro something or other with an 18" bar. This thing gets hammered with any 2 stroke oil I can find. If I had the privilege of owning a Stihl, I would probably use the best oil money could buy.....just sayin

I ran into guy cutting the same area I was and smelled a wicked familiar sweet smell. He was using Klotz too. Brings back memories...

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Here's the unanswered question: Why does Stihl say no TCW oils in the MS-362 manual?

That ^

Because they HAVE to say it. Here's some other questions: Is the 362 more powerful than the 361? Is it lighter? Is it more reliable? More durable? No, no, no, and, no. Then why did Stihl introduce it? Say it with me. . . REG-EWE-LAY-SHUNS! Because it's the best 60cc saw they could make that met some bullsh_t EPA standard written by some clueless bureaucrat. Everything in that manual is about limiting liability and keeping Uncle Sam's EPA off their back. If the manual said, "use any old oil you want" that would sortov defeat the purpose of the heavier, more expensive, low emissions saws, wouldn't it?

 

[MasterMech]

Here's the unanswered question: Why does Stihl say no TCW oils in the MS-362 manual?

That ^

Because they HAVE to say it. Here's some other questions: Is the 362 more powerful than the 361? Is it lighter? Is it more reliable? More durable? No, no, no, and, no. Then why did Stihl introduce it? Say it with me. . . REG-EWE-LAY-SHUNS! Because it's the best 60cc saw they could make that met some bullsh_t EPA standard written by some clueless bureaucrat. Everything in that manual is about limiting liability and keeping Uncle Sam's EPA off their back. If the manual said, "use any old oil you want" that would sortov defeat the purpose of the heavier, more expensive, low emissions saws, wouldn't it?

How much you wanna bet that same line is in the MS361, MS440, 044, 034, hell even an 056 manual? (I would have to do some diggin' to get that 056 Manual out...)

 

[MofoG23]

as someone posted earlier, the cost difference is next to nothing so I have been running the full synthetic stihl oil...still have a dozen bottles on the shelf. Well worth the extra couple bucks, especially when compared to the purchase price of the saw. :gulp:

...its a premium tool - treat it that way.

 

[MofoG23]

Has anyone on this board EVER seen an OIL RELATED failure? Ever?

I never have. Not in outboards, chainsaws, or motorcycles (lots of hours with all three). And, I don't know anyone who has.

Straight gassed? Yes.

Jetted lean? Yes.

Failed because of type of oil in an otherwise properly tuned engine? No. Never.

not sure if we are trying to prevent a complete failure/lock up - I believe we are trying to extend the overall operating life before a rebuild is required.

Anyways, can someone prove that synthetic stihl oil as being inferior or not worth the few extra cents?

 

[ScotO]

I have been running TCW oil in my saws for YEARS with no problem......ESPECIALLY since this ethanol chit gas came on the market. I am fully convinced that the ethanol destabilizes the synthetic oil and shortens the life of a piston and cylinder. However, I richen my oil/gas mix ratio so I am running more oil in the saw than is recommended. And I tune the saw to run that heavier mix. I have never ever had a mechanical failure do to the oil mix in my saws, EVER. And I cut a TON of wood year-round. Just my two cents, and I agree with Redd......that synthetic oil, combined with how LITTLE they recommend you run in the saw, is by design in the industry. It may help emissions, but it isn't helping your saw, UNLESS you are running AvGas in it...that is the only way I would use synthetic oil in ANY of my machines.....just my 2 pennies on the issue.....

 

[firefighterjake]

30 years of riding and racing 2 stroke motorcycles in the woods. I use Golden Spectro in my saws now, ssame as my bikes.

Really? I always used Klotz in my bikes and occasionally Maxima castor (only because of the sweet smell...lol)

Back to topic. I have the baddest saw around, a Poulan Pro something or other with an 18" bar. This thing gets hammered with any 2 stroke oil I can find. If I had the privilege of owning a Stihl, I would probably use the best oil money could buy.....just sayin

I ran into guy cutting the same area I was and smelled a wicked familiar sweet smell. He was using Klotz too. Brings back memories...

Before he bought a four stroke Yamaha, my brother in law was running a Polaris two stroke sled that he said required a snythetic oil and he always bought the Polaris brand . . . I loved the smell of that two stroke . . . and I could often gauge how close or how far behind him I was in the woods by the smell since it had a distinctive bubblegum/cotton candy like odor. Breathing in bad pollution never smelled so good.

 

[mecreature]

I used Mercury Premium 2-Cycle TC-W3 Oil in a poulan 2150 for years. I ran it in everything 2 stroke. Its still runs.

Now I run everything with stihl oil in my 280. thats the plan anyway.

I might even put a little in my 1500 chevy for a pick me up.

If I was you I would only run the FancyPants® MotoMix®.

 

[greythorn3]

sounds like im fine running the free outboard oil i got in my 044 as i have been running it in all my other 2 strokes then. wow this sure is a big debate.

 

[mecreature]

click the image.
get the manual and read it.. (broken link removed to http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/044_Manual.pdf)