66chris said:
So how are they handling condensation that occurs at anything over 85-87% in ALL fossil fuel or solid fuel appliances ?
E-Classic vs Heatmor Responce 200ssr
- Thread starter corvett1
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil. -
Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
- Status
So how are they handling condensation that occurs at anything over 85-87% in ALL fossil fuel or solid fuel appliances ?
Ok Someone south of 49 please clear this up for me. Does the EPA testing refer to the combustion level of the wood in the sample. As far as my limited math skills will go thats the only number that is possible. Sure cannot be energy recovered from the wood (usable btu's), as heatermans response said that is in condensing territory & I have never seen a smoke dragon with a condensate drain. If that is all this test refers to....well....if I add a fan to a camp fire pretty sure I can get close to that so what use is that test????? Please clear this up for me as the math just does not add up. BTW agree with the 48% being the best efficiency that you have EVER measured in the flue of an OWB. Doubt my smoke dragon comes anywhere near that as I know my exhaust temps are in excess of the flash point of paper or wood as I can lite both simply by holding them over the flue on a very long pole
Frozen Canuck said:Ok Someone south of 49 please clear this up for me. Does the EPA testing refer to the combustion level of the wood in the sample. As far as my limited math skills will go thats the only number that is possible. Sure cannot be energy recovered from the wood (usable btu's), as heatermans response said that is in condensing territory & I have never seen a smoke dragon with a condensate drain. If that is all this test refers to....well....if I add a fan to a camp fire pretty sure I can get close to that so what use is that test????? Please clear this up for me as the math just does not add up. BTW agree with the 48% being the best efficiency that you have EVER measured in the flue of an OWB. Doubt my smoke dragon comes anywhere near that as I know my exhaust temps are in excess of the flash point of paper or wood as I can lite both simply by holding them over the flue on a very long pole
Exactly.
Common sense will tell you that flue temps would have to measure within a degree or two of actual boiler water temp in order to attain 99% efficiency. The best gas fired boilers I work with will hit 95-96% with condensate raining from the drain but only when seeing return water temps in the 90-100* range. Once return temps get above 135-140* they are actually running about 87-88%. You can't defy the laws of physics. Efficiencies above 88 require capturing the latent heat contained in the moisture laden flue gas. Tain't gonna happen with wood unless you want a really serious maintenance issue.
I'm not saying it isn't possible as I have seen more than a few Garn's fill a 5 gallon bucket with condensate when started with 45-50* water in them. Combustion efficiency was well into the 90%+ range but running any wood burner that way would be a serious mistake.
Maybe what HeatMor is referencing is the Euro method of rating heating equipment which will often quote efficiency of over 100%. Just a tad misleading.........
BTW the smoke dragon I refer to in my yard is..... you guessed it.....a Heatmor. That's why I am asking for clarification on these report numbers from you engineer/math types as my simple farm boy/contractor math well....comes up with a vastly different number based on my real world testing.
Exactly, Heaterman I have been shopping for a new boiler (nat gas) for a back up in the house, was thrilled to find a local supplier with a North American made model that tested at 90.3%. Just cannot see how a bread loaf shaped wood burner in a water jacket no less is going to beat those numbers.
altheating said:
I've seen a couple of mentions of the Outdoor units, and I'm really glad to see one of the established gasifier companies venturing into that territory - though as I've said elsewhere I think if you have to go with an outdoor install, you are better off to put an inside unit in a larger boiler shed....
I would say though that looking at the Econoburn website, I think they could do a bit better job on the presentation - there is a mention that they exist on the front page, and some dimensions that are not very obvious on the specs page, and that's about it... Might be worth putting more up - maybe a separate page on the outdoor units w/ more info about the shelter, perhaps details on any extra freeze protection goodies (or the ability to add them) and so on...
Gooserider
Lower heating value efficiency does not account for moisture loss that is why the value can be so high...the EPA also publishes the higher heating value efficiency which is the number you should be looking at.
Yes, I see the higher eff numbers for the Heatmor, however those are also in condensing territory. Without a condensate drain where is all that water going to? This can probably be attributed to the manufacturer suppling these numbers in a "voluntary" test. Just cannot see how the manufactuers math & claims can defy the laws of physics, if someone else can please explain it to me.
There are also high numbers for the Central Boiler Maxim. I've also seen claims from indoor suppliers of 85% efficiency as well. The high heating value efficiency numbers are *close* to condensing territory but still very possible.
Yes agreed, possible; however if this # is achieved on a regular basis where is all that water going to? As Heaterman stated he has achieved very high eff #s on the initial fire of a Garn, then he & his crew have to clean up the mess that is created by condensing at those high eff #s. Just cannot see how this is possible/desirable on a regular/continual basis; esp on an outside unit as all that water will become ice when exposed to outside temps, over the course of a heating season that is one huge block of ice.
heaterman said:
^I'd bet that those stoves don't condense, probably get close to it but they simply don't.
- Status
Similar threads
