Direct connect combustion air - Wood Gun E100

[infinitymike]

Ponty

Hang in there bud, it will get better.
Now, first let me say that we shouldn't have to take the intricacies in stride, especially paying the money we did, BUT, taking anything in stride is my key to a somewhat serene life.
I try not to sweat the small and big stuff.

My first year was the most difficult and discouraging and I wanted to rip it out and get whatever the local scrap yard would give me.
BUT, I hung tough, too it slow and things began to work and run better.
True, that I didn't have the problems you had.
The problems I had were puffing and explosions.
Both of which I have solved.
I have the EPA plug in one of the lower tubes, I have the intake damper at 3/4 closed and I only load half a box of skinny splits and the other half with larger splits.
The explosions are solved by a delay timer relay set up that AHS sold me for $100.
It kills the power to the cycle timer (for what ever time you set it for, I set it for about 24 minutes) after the unit was running and then shut down.
This means the the gases can dissipate and the cycle timer can't turn the unit back on and ignite the gases.

I have NO issues with gaskets, fan seals, cracked refractory, op limit differential, etc.

There are times that I still get upset with smoke out of the stack that fills the yard, but again, I have resolved that (somewhat) by when and how much I reload.

Maybe I don't feel any of the other issues because mine is in my attached garage.
So any smell or smoke from huffing or opening the load door doesn't effect me.
My stack is 10' long coming straight off the top of the cyclone, so any ash just falls back into the pan.
I empty that every 1-2 or 3 days tops.

Maybe the Wood Gun should be sold as an outdoor boiler that needs to be in an outside structure and not in a house.

BUT there are MANY if not ALL WG owners who have them in there house and are taking it all in stride.

 

[avc8130]

If all you really need are 4 pieces of wood to heat your house in a given day...and you have natural gas available...you were absolutely nuts to jump all the way to a wood boiler. You'd burn so little natural gas in a modern setup that I can't imagine it is worth ANY hassle to burn wood.

WRT the Wood Gun...I'm surprised you are having so many issues. Mine has given me some initial lessons, but once I got used to running it properly, it's been "add wood" since.

I've never had door seal issues, in fact all 3 of my doors are still at their factory adjustment settings.

The only "failure" I've had was the intake damper. That wasn't really AHS's fault, and they are battling with Honeywell to get me a replacement spare under warranty.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of your troubles weren't caused by how you are trying to run the WG. It wasn't really designed to be run the way you are running it. It's a "high mass" boiler. It was intended to be maintained at "operating" temperatures. Starting cold every day is probably causing condensation and creosote while the refractory is coming up to temp.

Most Wood Gun owners I've spoken to have the best luck by just heating their house. No games, no funny t-stat settings, just set the house to the temp you like and put wood in the boiler.

ac

 

[711mhw]

If all you really need are 4 pieces of wood to heat your house in a given day...and you have natural gas available...you were absolutely nuts to jump all the way to a wood boiler. You'd burn so little natural gas in a modern setup that I can't imagine it is worth ANY hassle to burn wood.

Most Wood Gun owners I've spoken to have the best luck by just heating their house. No games, no funny t-stat settings, just set the house to the temp you like and put wood in the boiler.

ac

Yup.

 

[Pontypool]

For the moment, I am still hanging tough. So Mike, now that you have huffing under control, have you considered removing the EPA plug just to see if you can run the WG without it (and without huffing).
The thing I don't like about the solutions being offered by AHS is that they are selling you a highly efficient boiler, but it won't run properly so they give you solutions that bring it down to the same efficiency as ordinary wood burners.
Burning wet wood (higher moisture content - whatever you want to call it) and plugging tubes has to be lowering your efficiency, causing you to burn more wood. It has to take longer to heat the refractory if the super heated gases are only travelling down one side - no?
I am all about burning efficiently - from what I have seen - many of you guys have some pretty good equipment for mass producing/handling your wood - I do not, so the less wood I am handling - the better. That was the idea behind getting a highly efficient wood boiler. Also - up to and at the time I bought my WG - natural gas prices were going up rapidly - now they are starting to go down because both Canada and the U.S. are developing vast reserves of the stuff - who knew - not me.
As we determined much earlier it this thread, I don't have a cycle timer - my explosions are partly the result of an improperly installed (possibly malfunctioning) operating limit (OL). My OL it set for 30* differential but I actually get about 14* (but its hard to tell because the tridicator supplied does not read correctly). I went to order a new OL, the guy at the supply place told me to first check the electric grease in the well to see if the probe is making proper contact - there is no grease - it is dry. I took it apart, added some I had (not exactly the right stuff) now I am getting closer to 25* differential - I should not have to be doing this. I figure the shorter cycle time fromthe 14* actual differential was not allowing the gases in the chamber to stabilize before the next cycle - so random BOOMS.
The plan was to be heating my garage (a separate building) which would add to the heat load - but I have spent so much time dicking with this thing, I have not got the garage all plumbed yet.
Keep in mind (AC) - my cold starting fluid temp is about 130-140F - so not really "COLD", but definately out of fuel.
The refractory is still well over 200F so relighting takes very little time.
Look at the pics I posted of my gaskets AC - how do you explain that - that was from less than 7 days burning.
What could I be doing to cause that? I am not having any condensation or creosote issues at all.

Whatever was going on with the stinky bubbles, stopped a few days after I siliconed the oil burner port seal, have not had that since.

 

[avc8130]

Ponty,

The EPA plug actually SLOWS the burning of the wood in the upper chamber by not getting 1/2 of the refractory as hot to "cook" the wood. The other side is still rocking hot so no trouble with efficiency there.

Getting a proper 20+ differential will solve your BOOMs.

130/140 is good. That's about where mine gives up if the fire goes out or I forget to add wood.

Your gaskets are the wrong ones. Lower doors need to be rope, not silicone. Of course they failed. The silicone isn't rated for the gassification temps. If your boiler came like that, contact AHS and see what they say. Remember it has been 5 years since you bought it and I think the company has changed hands although most of the same guys still work there.

ac

 

[Green Mt Heat]

Ponty,

I bought the EPA plug from AHS and have been running it in the left tube for a whole season. I has helped with the huffing greatly. I know that the bulk of my issues is still the wood that I'm burning left over from my old boiler as I have stated in earlier posts. BTW all of my gaskets are silicone probably the originals and the only time there is smoke leaking is when the unit is huffing. The only leaks are the very bottom of the fuel door where the silicone is worn and damaged. I empty my cyclone about ever 3-4 days but I nave about 7' or so of horizontal run before the chimney so I do collect some ash there as well. The WG is not perfect but all in all I have been happy considering I got mine well used. Many times I just shake my head thinking how is it possible that this thing could be that efficient but yet so simple. I can easily get an 8-10 hour burn if my house is already up to temp. I was ready to give up on the WG too but I just kept pushing on until I was able to make some improvement. Just keep asking questions and describing the symptoms, there are a lot of smart folks here that have a lot of experience with running gassers.

 

[muncybob]

When I got the plug from AHS I was told to alternate between the 2 tubes for even wear.

The silicone gasket in my rear door was shot after 1 season. Replaced with the high temp rope and still in good shape.

 

[infinitymike]

Green mountain,

I think you said you wanted to fabricate a smoke hood.
here are the dimensions of the factory smoke hood.
it mounts to the 2 top bolts.
I have an E100, not sure if yours is wider.

 

[infinitymike]

In my opinion the hood could be deeper then the 9" more like 12" and the 3" vertical could drop down as close to the door as possible, maybe 5 or 6"

 

[Pontypool]

First - I will agree with you Green Mt Heat - some smart folks here & I have benefitted greatly from being part of this forum & hope I can give back something that will help others from my experiences.

I have been checking my newly replaced rope gaskets (lower doors) weekly to see how they are performing - there is no wear - still have silicone on the loading door - adjusted numerous times - thinking I finally have a good seal. Green MT Heat - I am baffled how you can be still running silicone - mine were noticeably scorched after the first fire (which was a smaller, short fire).
I have not contacted AHS about gaskets, temp gauge, op-limit becuase of the reason you stated - it was just over 5 years from delivery to first burn - I wouldn't expect anyone to replace things after that time elapsed, my fault for taking so long.

Does anyone know if their op-limit probe has electric contact grease inside the immersion well ???
Apparently when you buy the op-limit from Honeywell it comes with a squeeze pak of this grease. It is to prevent corrosion and promote good contact between the well and the probe. I am fiddling with my op-limit hoping I can get closer to 30* differential without having to buy another as they cost $125

AC - in this case(epa plug), when I am refering to efficiency, I am suggesting that because one tube is plugged, the WG has less surface area to absorb heat, less heat transfer to your fluid - more heat going up the chimney. Of course, I have not tested this - if I was running the plug I would test to see if the exhaust tube (to the cyclone) was hotter than without the plug, and try to average mentally (over a number of burns) from cool 140F to 190F the time and fuel it takes. I know this is not going to be exact given wood & outside temps but if there is enough of a difference I think you would notice.

I still maintain that burning higher moisture content (translation - wet ) wood is a bad solution which I would expect to cause creosote beyond the burn chamber, and noticeably greater fuel consumption.

So I am throwing the question out there - anyone who is burning 20% +++ moisture wood - Are you getting creosote in your smoke pipe or chimney?

From what I am reading here, the taller your vertical off the cyclone - the better. Mine is only 3 feet, then T's to horizontal. I am getting small coals (like MuncyBob) in my horizontal smoke pipe (which runs 10 feet) and in my chimney cleanout. Not really worried about this as I only have super fine ash beyond the WG - do not see any creosote whatsoever - so nothing to catch fire. Pretty much constantly hear a couple small coals bouncing around in (what sounds like) the cyclone and vertical pipe - I assume everyone is getting that. I get minimal ash in the horizontal, but a small accumulation falls to the chimney cleanout.

Hood - I have turned my fan exhaust port to face back (over the boiler) so I am not hitting my head on it - simply remove 4 bolts, turn fan, rebolt. I posted a pic (only one I have). In the top right corner you can see the grey collar from the fan exhaust, then elbows up. When I bought the hood from AHS the fan is mounted to the hood with the exhaust port pointing directly at your face so the first elbow would also be in your face.

 

[avc8130]

Ponty,

I'd still contact AHS. They have been excellent to work with. They might not be able to get you stuff "free", but they will certainly help you operate the system.

No clue if my aquastat well has grease. Mine has worked well enough I've never worried.

The refractory is INSULATED from the water jacket. So you aren't losing heat transfer. ALL of the heat transfer occurs in the "swirl chamber".

I adjust my air intake damper based on flue temp right before the cyclone.

I don't know what moisture content my wood is, but I get NO creosote other than in the upper fire chamber.

I have a similar chimney setup. My chimney cleanout fills with ash. I clean that out as a 2nd "ash pan" monthly.

ac

 

[infinitymike]

I stopped checking the moisture in my wood, I get ZERO creosote anywhere except the firebox and thats Stainless so it should last longer then carbon steel.
The swirl chamber, the pipe to the cyclone, the cyclone and all of my stacks are creosote free. just a light layer of ash.
I must say, that I think I have the best stack set up for the WG.
It is a 10' vertical double wall pipe off the cyclone and terminates with a cap.
Maybe I turned my exhaust fan too, it faces the back.
I also took the switch off from where it was mounted and put it in a box with the low cut off override switch on the left side of the WG.
My WG is raised up on a 12" concrete pad. Which is nice because the load box is right at chest level.

 

[infinitymike]

Oh, I reloaded the racks in the garage before the busted Juno Blizzard and didn't bring in any unseasoned big splits.
I get a very very light huffing with the very dry skinny splits even with the EPA plug.
I just loaded 14 splits to fill the box, thats a lot of surface area.
I don't think the unseasoned part is so good but the large part is better to use all around.

 

[Green Mt Heat]

 

[Green Mt Heat]

Ponty,

The above pics are from today, as you can see the gaskets have seen better days but they do not leak unless I'm having a huffing issue. The only leak is at the bottom of the fuel door where the gasket is chard a bit. Also I have no idea how old this WG is or how much longer it will last, I figure I will just run it until it leaks which I hope wont be anytime soon...Knock on wood....That being said I am impressed that all of the components are still working, the WG is kinda like a tractor vs a BMW. Durable off the shelf components w/o plc's or electronics of any kind. I like that. Like I said I have been running the plug for a full season and I would say (IMO) there is difference in efficiency if you are burning wood under 20% .BTW I completely stopped worrying about efficiency after I saw Mike's video with the thermo coupling reading over 1800* in the refractory and under 400* up the stack! That is truly amazing for a design this simple not to mention the age of the design. I have not alternated the plug from tube-to-tube because my left tube has one badly damaged refractory brick, its broken between the center and the left tube, therefor I just leave that side plugged.

Mike thank you very much for the dim's for the smoke hood. I picked up a used blower and with a little fabrication I think I can make something work.

I can hear the WG working pretty hard tonight supplying 3 zones as I write this from my bedroom as it is in the single digits with a pretty strong wind. Time to go feed it!

 

[Pontypool]

So I have my first energy billings since starting to use my WG - and this is what is making the pains I have been having more bearable. For 3 weeks of the 4 week billing period electric bill was down by $60, natural gas was down by $149 .......... so $206 for 3 weeks. I would expect next month to be more as it was warmer in December than it has been in Jan - Feb.

I have been testing with heat recovery from the cyclone - so far I am only getting about a 3 degree gain on incoming - outgoing fluid. (see pics) I am circulating the fluid dead slow. There is no gain without the insulating blanket.
The cyclone temps are always over 300F - cannot understand why I am not getting a better gain.
Ideas anyone????

I have been testing different loading methods. Note: my fluid temp never drops below 125 -130F.

I have found that if the WG has been off for 8 hours - fluid 130F - house temp 70, outside temp 0 F - if I fire up with a "make-up" load of 3 pieces (like the pics I posted above - "6pm load") the WG gets the house up to temp (78 F) and starts cycling off after about 2 1/2 hours.
This week most nights have been well below 0 F and maybe 17F daytime. I have been firing (from dead out, but refractory hot) with say 7pcs fine split 2x4 by 20inch kindling, then 2 pcs of 1 1/2 inch round placed on either side of the center bricks -get that roaring (vibrating) first - then I place one large split (half circle 10" wide 5 inch tall) right in the middle on top of the rounds. That one split will slowly bring the house up to temp over basically the same amount of time (maybe an extra half hour) and will last just as long as the "6 pm load". I add 2 more tiny rounds and
another large split at 11pm ( self ignites from coals & refractory) and that lasts until 6am when fluid will be 150F,
still on "run" but out of wood. Throw in some kindling, tiny rounds, 1 large split away we go again.
MY conclusions - putting in more wood will bring temps up a bit faster, but the burn cycle will only be marginally longer. The WG will burn up that wood in the same amount of time. There will be much more coals at re-load time with more wood, but I am having no problem re-lighting at reload. The WG fan is running longer, but I am sure that proper gasification is happening as there is no change in the ash in the tubes, no creosote and when it cycles back on it fires right up - roaring sound.
So..... it is a tiny bit more effort but for the entire last week, 0F to -12F nights I have used exactly 3 large splits and
6pcs 1 1/2 inch rounds and 4 fine split, 20 inch, 2x4's each day - that's it - period. I will say I have to "settle" the large split about every 2 hours because as it burns there ends up being high spots so it doesn't make good contact with the
refractory - that would be a pain for some.
So - AC - this would be some justification for my "insane" choice - I have realized a $206 savings in utilities over 3 weeks and I am burning amazingly little wood.
In my gas bill Enbridge just notified us gas charge increases have been approved - there is a big surprise- not.

If I can figure out how to make the heat recovery (pic) have even a 20F gain the $300 in materials and 3 days of labor I have put into it so far would all be worthwhile.
Green MT Heat - I know you are impressed with the efficiency, but I believe the WG can do much better. To me 400F going up the chimney is $$$$ and wood - which tranlates to more wood cutting /handling and more ash removal.

Sooooooo.... if anyone has any thoughts on making this work, hammer that keyboard. I am going to take a run at it again this weekend to see if I can improve it.

 

[maple1]

Sorry if you already mentioned, but what is the fluid you are trying to heat with the cyclone? Is it the boiler water? Or a DHW preheat setup? And then what are the temps in & out?

There is very little direct contact between the cyclone & your copper tubing, so likely not a great chance for heat exchange.

 

[Pontypool]

I have a filter zone which is a small pump taking fluid from the main boiler loop, filtering it (you can see the filter-in the yellow pail- in the pic - tried circulating with no filter, for volume) and returning it to the main loop. I have extended that so now fluid comes off the main loop to the pump, thru the filter, then thru the copper tubes and back to the main loop. The purpose was to capture wasted heat from the cyclone, return it to the loop to be used where needed. I do have an aquastat on that zone so it only runs when the cyclone is above 250F - the bulb can be seen in the pic - laying on top of the cyclone. Temps in/out vary with the 25* differential of the operating limit but generally between 150F and 180F. The "out" is consistently 2* more than the "in" - need to do better somehow - I would like to see the "out" being 20* more than the "in" - but how???.

 

[maple1]

I don't think you will get much heat out of the cyclone. Aside from the small contact patch of the copper (which then leaves the rest of the copper surface to radiate what heat is collected outwards), you don't have a very big temp differential between the cyclone and the copper (the bigger the temp difference the more the heat transfer), and also what heat you do extract from the cyclone will be from the layer of gases just inside its interior surface. I could be proven wrong, or course, but I just don't think that will work - I am actually kind of surprised you are seeing any temp rise, given there would perhaps be a greater tendancy for the heat to leave the copper to the air than then go from the cyclone to the copper.

 

[Pontypool]

The temp of the cyclone is double the temp of the fluid - done right I am thinking I should be able to get a decent gain, not to heat the dhw, just to help support the main loop, reduce run time (wood usage) minimizing waste.

I am very successfully chilling 78F air with 55F water using my boiler fan coil and piping and my homemade chiller unit (see page 1 of this thread for pic) - yes chilling is a little different - but that also was a matter of getting enough surface area and the correct volumes. I overkilled that one and it worked well right off the start with a few minor tweaks. There is a will, so there is a way, I think.

 

[infinitymike]

So..... it is a tiny bit more effort but for the entire last week, 0F to -12F nights I have used exactly 3 large splits and
6pcs 1 1/2 inch rounds and 4 fine split, 20 inch, 2x4's each day - that's it - period. I will say I have to "settle" the large split about every 2 hours because as it burns there ends up being high spots so it doesn't make good contact with the
refractory - that would be a pain for some.

I am totally baffled.
If I used that little wood, my house would never make it to 78* let only even make it to 68*.

I read this post and then my first floor zone kicked on. Its only maintaing 70* (not bringing my house up 8* like you do).
I knew that there was not much left in the firebox, basically a 2" layer of coals.
I said, let me try PONTYS WAY, I put a 3"x6"x24" split right on those coals, I was going to walk away but just couldn't so I threw a 2"x4"x24" split on either side.
Unfortunately, I didn't time it, but I came back later, maybe 45-60 minutes and the zone was NOT satisfied, the coals were gone and there was only a remnant of the 3x6x24 piece left. I had to rake up what ever little coals were left and get some 2x4x24 splits to take off and then threw in 3 half circle splits about 3" tall and 6" wide by 24" long. Again, not sure how much longer, maybe 15 minutes and the zone satisfied and then shortly there after the WG reached OP temp and shut down.

You amaze me and probably ever other WG owner I know!

All HAIL the KING of WOOD GUNS.

 

[muncybob]

Ponty, is the WG your ONLY source of heat?

 

[Pontypool]

Muncybob - while the Wg is powered it is the only source of heat. I have a 100,000 btu NG forced air furnace but it is powered off.

Mike - the splits you are describing are much smaller than what I am using, so you cannot compare that.
I documented my Friday night - Saturday heating.
Note for pics - my WG temp gauge reads 10* low (so 115F is actually 125F).


6 pm - WG has been powered down for 8 hours - outside temp 14F- house temp 71F.
WG is at 125F -pic - with the remains of a large split - cold out.
Pics tell the rest for the 6 pm load.

 

[Pontypool]

So WG is fired, DHW load powered off, running forced air heating coil zone at 460 rpm (dead slow) and 2 boaseboard zones (46 feet in total) running super slow.

Forgot to mention on my Friday post that I use the occasional "cheater" - see pics if I check the WG and need to get some better flame going, I will tilt the large split and slide a cheater under one side close to the the nozzles.
From 6 pm to 10pm Friday I did add a cheater. I use about 10 cheaters a week - which is one and a half large splits - split finely (so full disclosure here).

10 pmoutside temp still 14F, house temp 77, WG 169F. WG blower has been running non-stop since 6pm.
Large split mostly burnt, Wg mostly up to temp, house heat demands mostly met - time to re-load for the night.
Within 45 min of re-load house zones are shutting down, dhw powered and met, WG cycles down. see pics.

 

[infinitymike]

You've really got this down to a science in a short time, good on you. Very impressed.