Daimler Trucks North America is going electric

[begreen]

Right, the solution is not to pretend everything is great and we're going back to the 1950s. Bottom line is we need to be a whole lot smarter and innovative about our needs for power and the impact these needs have on the planet. There are some boneheaded options showing up too, not all designs are fully thought through on their long term impact on the planet. But there are also some good ones. Conservation is one place major progress can be made. No one said it's happening overnight, but it is certainly happening. China started late in the game and they already have over twice the wind generation capacity of the US. They have full cities in which most public transportation is now electric. Can be done, especially with a much lower military budget. But then again, there is so much CO2 in the atmosphere now, that more radical approaches may need to be considered.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Overnight car charging will solve more problems than it creates. Like evening out the peak load for power plants and the problem of ramping up for daytime load and back down overnight. Lots of unused capacity at night. Will be very different rates for charging overnight and charging during peak hours.

 

[wilsoncm1]

Off on a tangent here. It was stated - "Unless they're solar powered, emissions are produced to provide that transportation." That is factually incorrect. There are other sources of emissions-free power and they were noted. What works best will be regional solutions. In WA state it's quite unlikely that the new mandate will put PSE or Avista out of business. This is not a surprise to them. They started the RFP process last year for renewable resources. PSE is now reviewing some 97 proposals. They also note that another emissions-free source of power is conservation. PSE estimates energy efficiency programs saving about a 500MW over the next 20yrs.

Another source emissions-free power is tidal. Being far north our tidal swing is large. France, S. Korea and Scotland have large tidal power generation systems.

Yes, but what percentage of the grid is using these power sources? A small minority. The VAST majority of your power comes from carbon creating sources. What may happen in the future really doesn't matter. What matters is what is happening now. How many of these sources that you cite are actually in production? How many of these proposed plans actually are in the pipeline? How far out are they?

Let's not kid ourselves. When you plug in your EV you're polluting just as much if not more than an ICE, unless you're using your own PV power (not grid tied).

The plans that you cite are just kicking the can down the road. We need to do better NOW. Do your politicians have plans to make up for the lost production? If so, what are they? Where are the permits and plans to complete them in the timeline they mandated?

I'm not attacking you, so please don't take it that way. I'm frustrated with the political class that says "I care, so we're mandating X,Y,Z with NO plans to make it happen in a realistic way". Does anyone hold them accountable? Or do we just love the platitudes?

 

[begreen]

We're in a time of transitions. There are still a lot of legacy systems in place. Still, coal is rapidly being phased out. By next year it will be producing only half of what it did a decade earlier. Renewables are picking up dramatically. This trend will continue, it has to.

That said, I agree that we are really late getting it together. National awareness of these issues started with Carter. The biggest resource we have now that can be brought on quickly is conservation. Unfortunately, the current administration is doing everything it can to discourage development and weaning off fossil fuels. This is crazy considering where we are at and the number of jobs that developing renewables and increasing energy efficiency can create. In the meantime, in spite of getting a late start, China has leap-frogged past us in alternative energy production.

 

[semipro]

Let's not kid ourselves. When you plug in your EV you're polluting just as much if not more than an ICE, unless you're using your own PV power (not grid tied).

From a US DOE report:

"EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. The exact amount of these emissions depends on your electricity mix, which varies by geographic location."
https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

Also:

• ICEs only get dirtier with age as they wear. Not so EVs. As the grid gets cleaner and more efficient so do they.
• With an EV at least you have the option of making your own "fuel". Not so much with ICEs.
• EVs connected to the grid also allow for increased energy storage (V2G) that should enable more renewable content without peak disruption.
• ICEs have probably reached their technological prime. No so with EVs. Serious development has only recently occurred.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

And then theres THIS!
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/illinois-1000-electric-vehicle-legislation

 

[wilsoncm1]

From a US DOE report:

"EVs typically produce fewer life cycle emissions than conventional vehicles because most emissions are lower for electricity generation than burning gasoline or diesel. The exact amount of these emissions depends on your electricity mix, which varies by geographic location."
https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/reducing-pollution-electric-vehicles

Exactly my point. Areas like where I live is Coal based power with some Nuke.

Also:

• ICEs only get dirtier with age as they wear. Not so EVs. As the grid gets cleaner and more efficient so do they.
• With an EV at least you have the option of making your own "fuel". Not so much with ICEs.
• EVs connected to the grid also allow for increased energy storage (V2G) that should enable more renewable content without peak disruption.
• ICEs have probably reached their technological prime. No so with EVs. Serious development has only recently occurred.

Not arguing those facts at all. I think EV is the way of the future. I'm waiting for a useful 4WD EV that will fit my daily transportation needs. Jeep's Plug-in is on my radar.

 

[wilsoncm1]

And then theres THIS!
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/illinois-1000-electric-vehicle-legislation

I'm not too bent about that, TBH. Fuel tax pays for road construction and maintenance. If you're not paying it, you're getting a free ride.

 

[semipro]

And then theres THIS!
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/illinois-1000-electric-vehicle-legislation

Our system for funding road transportation is broken. Liquid fuel taxes don't make sense anymore.
We need to move towards ether:

• Usage fees based on actual degradation to the infrastructure. Since pavement is a state DOT's most expensive asset, that means heavier vehicles would pay a lot more. Trucks do something like 3000x the damage to pavement than do light vehicles. And yes, the increased cost of hauling things would mean costs filter down to consumers. The real cost of consuming should be paid by those that actually do it.
• General tax funds pay for transportation. Transportation is just as critical as the DOT, DOE, EPA, FDA, etc. Why don't we fund it like those are funded?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Then you have the fact that every few years they raise gas taxes only to be siphoned off for unrelated expenses while the roads get worse and worse. Its no wonder there is contempt for politicians.
https://www.thewestendreporter.com/penndot-audit-reveals-billions-diverted-from-gas-tax-fund/

 

[Seasoned Oak]

. The real cost of consuming should be paid by those that actually do it.

I would think 80,000 Lbs per truck can do a lot of road wear. One truck more than a large fleet of Evs.

 

[Ashful]

And then theres THIS!
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/illinois-1000-electric-vehicle-legislation

This creates a real tough problem. As begreen said yesterday, we are in a transitional period. There are going to be some growing pains.

Raising registration fees on just EV’s is a pretty short-sighted solution to a real problem. It will dis-incentivize the technology, which is not where we need to go.

Some might say we should just do away with the fuel tax system, and replace it entirely with a registration tax on all vehicles, to level the playing field. The trouble is, that will lower fuel prices to a point that will also dis-incentivized the EV’s.

The long-term outlook is obvious, EV’s are going to replace ICE’s for the majority of vehicles on the road. But getting from here to there is not going to be easy, it’s going to be an interesting decade, for all things automotive.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Some might say we should just do away with the fuel tax system, and replace it entirely with a registration tax on all vehicles, to level the playing field. The trouble is, that will lower fuel prices to a point that will also dis-incentivized the EV’s.
.

ID keep the fuel tax but mandate it only go for its intended purpose.
Already a registration fee on all vehicles and it wouldnt account for miles driven or encourage fuel conservation and how many people can come up with $1000 or more in one shot.
On one hand the Fed and some state govts subsidizes electric cars with a $7500 rebate then (some)turn around and tax it back. I think there should be no EV penalties until electric transportation is well established at which point we will all benefit from the competition between the two. Good chance that $1000 will be siphoned off for something OTHER than road repair ,especially in such a well run state.

 

[begreen]

And then theres THIS!
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/illinois-1000-electric-vehicle-legislation

That proposal is nuts. It's not even well thought out. The state would go from one incentivizing electric car to the most onerous in the world. There is no equivalent. If this was a gas car it would be like charging a $2/gallon tax. And then there the fact that there are only about 15,000 electric cars registered in Illinois. So this would raise $15M towards a $2.4 Billion dollar budget? I don't tink so Lucy.

 

[SpaceBus]

This creates a real tough problem. As begreen said yesterday, we are in a transitional period. There are going to be some growing pains.

Raising registration fees on just EV’s is a pretty short-sighted solution to a real problem. It will dis-incentivize the technology, which is not where we need to go.

Some might say we should just do away with the fuel tax system, and replace it entirely with a registration tax on all vehicles, to level the playing field. The trouble is, that will lower fuel prices to a point that will also dis-incentivized the EV’s.

The long-term outlook is obvious, EV’s are going to replace ICE’s for the majority of vehicles on the road. But getting from here to there is not going to be easy, it’s going to be an interesting decade, for all things automotive.

There are just so many ICE vehicles already on the road. They aren't just going to dissappear. Most likely the only thing that will reduce this would be more expensive fuel. Once we have a garage and PV I'd love to buy an EV. Without solar or some changes to the power company, it won't happen for me. It would cost me more to use an EV than to drive my diesel truck averaging 24MPG

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Since im at the stage in life where im buying "toys" i may add a good used volt to the fleet at some point. Iv seen some well kept used ones for 8 to 12k. Not a bad entry fee into the EV world. I really have very little use for a small sedan myself but it may be ideal for my daughter who will be 16 next yr.

 

[Ashful]

I really have very little use for a small sedan myself but it may be ideal for my daughter who will be 16 next yr.

My son thinks he’s getting my current car when he gets his license. A new driver in a 500 hp sedan... what could go wrong?

On that note, kids won’t need to work for gas money, in an EV world, mom and dad will be supplying that.

 

[semipro]

On that note, kids won’t need to work for gas money, in an EV world, mom and dad will be supplying that.

Maybe. For a while there my sons were expected to pay their share of our home utility bill out of an allowance earned through chores.
It kept their showers shorter and unneeded lights off.

 

[Ashful]

Maybe. For a while there my sons were expected to pay their share of our home utility bill out of an allowance earned through chores.
It kept their showers shorter and unneeded lights off.

The kids are fine. Environmental awareness, as it pertains to energy and water conservation, is now discussed in school. But I need to figure out how to implement that on my wife, I find an unwatched 70” TV (or two) sitting on the Netflix homescreen every morning, and seem to spend my evenings constantly flicking off light switches as I pass thru the house doing my projects.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The performance aspect of EVs is the key to widespread adoption. Not many people including myself interested in a glorified golfcart. Tesla has done wonders in that area. But most EVs are pretty quick off the line these days. Also it seems for some reason the performance minded crowd are the ones with the extra cash and willing to part with it going by the prices of popular muscle cars.

 

[CaptSpiff]

Maybe. For a while there my sons were expected to pay their share of our home utility bill out of an allowance earned through chores.
It kept their showers shorter and unneeded lights off.

Brilliant!

Probably for another thread, but..... What did you do? About $50 a week with an end of week (or end of month) reconciliation with a 50% payback?

 

[semipro]

Brilliant!

Probably for another thread, but..... What did you do? About $50 a week with an end of week (or end of month) reconciliation with a 50% payback?

They had a monthly allowance contingent on the timely completion of assigned chores. I took 25% of the power bill out of their next monthly allowance.
IIRC I didn't always carry through too well.
They're 27/28 now but I notice they'll always turn the lights off when exiting an empty room.

 

[Ashful]

The performance aspect of EVs is the key to widespread adoption. Not many people including myself interested in a glorified golfcart. Tesla has done wonders in that area. But most EVs are pretty quick off the line these days. Also it seems for some reason the performance minded crowd are the ones with the extra cash and willing to part with it going by the prices of popular muscle cars.

I’ve only driven two EV’s, and they were both higher-end Tesla’s (P90-D and a dual-motor AWD variant of the Model 3), but I have to say they were both almost confusingly fast. I’ve owned a lot of fast cars, even a 9-second street car in my 20’s, and these EV’s just blow the doors off any ICE I’ve ever owned in the 0 - 30 MPH range.

The higher-horsepower ICEs still match their 0 - 60 MPH times, and easily beat the EV’s on highway passing, but I do a heck of a lot more driving on country roads than highways.

What’s so surprising about the AWD EV’s, to anyone not used to them, is the lack of any time lag in the pedal response. I’m used to fast cars, but even then there’s still a fraction of a second between pedal down and vehicle acceleration. The EV is simply head-snapping instantaneous.

I could easily see passenger fatigue being a new topic of discussion, as high-performance EV’s become more ubiquitous. The acceleration on a high-horsepower ICE is less violent, and comes with lots of noise and drama that subconsciously prepares the passenger, and maybe even makes the driver a little less prone to unleash. The EV is silent and instantly violent, it could really wear on a passenger’s neck muscles and mental state, especially with aggressive young male drivers.

 

[semipro]

The EV is simply head-snapping instantaneous.

I've launched Teslas many times with passengers onboard -- always with a warning beforehand to put their head back against the headrest.
To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I’ve only driven two EV’s, and they were both higher-end Tesla’s (P90-D and a dual-motor AWD .

Sounds like a tesla is in your future.