cutting into a gas line

[saichele]

In arranging for the install of the natural gas stove, I'm going to need to cut into a run of black pipe to insert a new junction. What's the best method to do this (obviously starts with turning off the gas...) Much of the line is pretty old, and there's just one union in the line. so the reason to cut out a piece is to try to avoid dissassembling the whole operation.

I was thinking Sawzall, but then started to be concerned about sparks. I can open a couple drip caps further down the line to vent some of the gas out of the pipe. Any other tips?

Thanks
Steve

 

[jtp10181]

The gas in the line is too concentrated to ignite, but it would be a good idea to relieve the pressure before cutting so you don't get blasted when it goes through. We had this done to our line outside to make an outdoor test location. The utility company said they would sawzall it or "spin it off" which I don't know what that is. You will need a pipe threader though.

 

[elkimmeg]

There is a reason for permitting and having licensed professionals do the job. In no jurisdiction can a home owner do as you are contemplating.

The person doing the work has to be a licensed plumber or gas fitter. If you are asking these questions then you should never attempt doing the job
. Part of the inspection process is re testing the line or lines with a micrometer and ensuring it is leak proof.

I would suggest, no one here make recommendation as to how a DYI messes around with gas lines. especially older gas piping

 

[Metal]

I agree with Elk on this one, you are out of your league. It may go fine, but if it doesn't... Get a professional to run the gas lines.

 

[saichele]

Wow. You probably want people to pull permits to install wood stoves and replace water heaters too...

Steve

 

[nshif]

Steve
You cannot just stick in a Tee, you will not be able to tighten it without taking apart everything downstream. It would require 2 unions and a tee and 2 very precise cuts and threading to make it all fit back. Plus you need the ability to test it after reassembly. I dont know about you but I rather worry about gas leaks in my house, something about explosions. I guess you could just put it together and turn the gas on and go down there with a match to check but you may end up in the next county. You dont need a permit to replace a water heater ( its an appliance ) but you do to install a wood stove for very good reasons.

 

[Metal]

FYI, in Kansas you need a permit and inspection to replace a water heater (I know, I replaced mine last Winter), so check with your local code office.

From the local website:

"Do I need a permit to replace my furnace or water heater?

Yes, a permit is required, and an inspection is performed to ensure the safety of the installation.

If installing a furnace or water heater yourself, call 660-xxxx for advice, assistance and a permit.

If you are paying someone else to install it, call 660-xxx to make sure he or she is licensed to perform such work in Sedgwick County. After it is installed, make sure your contractor calls us for an inspection."

Here is there answer pertaining to gas pipe:

"Can I install my own fuel gas piping?

No. Only plumbers and LP installers licensed in Sedgwick County may install gas piping."

 

[hearthtools]

FYI, in Kansas you need a permit and inspection to replace a water heater (I know, I replaced mine last Winter), so check with your local code office.

From the local website:

"Do I need a permit to replace my furnace or water heater?

Yes, a permit is required, and an inspection is performed to ensure the safety of the installation.

If installing a furnace or water heater yourself, call 660-xxxx for advice, assistance and a permit.

If you are paying someone else to install it, call 660-xxx to make sure he or she is licensed to perform such work in Sedgwick County. After it is installed, make sure your contractor calls us for an inspection."

Here is there answer pertaining to gas pipe:

"Can I install my own fuel gas piping?

No. Only plumbers and LP installers licensed in Sedgwick County may install gas piping."

I agree a Pro is the best person to do gas line.
But not all states require you do have a Lic to do plumbing on our OWN HOME.
as long is it is done right.
There is a lot more than just cutting into the pipe.
You would need to use a Union and or a left and right Nipple but they are a pain.
A union has to go where it will be accessable for inspection.

I get so frustrated when people say the gas line will be easy and I go out and look and they are on a Slap foundation.
and in the middle of the house.
"oh cant you just run the pipe in the attic and down the wall"
Yes we can but 10 hours of work for in California we can use COPPER
but we can use stainless Coated flex that we are certified to use in Approved spaced.

 

[elkimmeg]

I think some should review the national gas codes before making replies here. The national gas code is just that, it applies to all gas work in all 50 states.
It specifically details what is required for permitting and the extent DIYers can do. Usually when there is a gas incident, It ends up as being front page news

If you are lucky enough and not be home at the time of the incident, Do not expect the insurance company to greet you with open arms, if they discover un permitted un inspected work occurred prior to the incident.

Did you know, the gas codes spell out to all licensed installers, that if they see an incident or dangerous situation in a basement or anywhere on the property they have to notify the inspections office and You can be evacuated if the condition warrant. Its not like they are to have blinders on just replacing a gas hot water heater and not see dangerous situations and not report them

Negligence on their part they could get sued and loose their license if they neglect to report these situations.

You may not realize this but gas leaks can be unpredictable Say Im excavating with my backhoe and hit a gas line I know of incidents where the gas leak followed the trencch and gas line 4 homes removed and it exploded

Two towns removed the dpw was doing road work excavating had dig safe mark the existing gas lines. But this time the maps had forgotten what was believed to be an abandoned line.

two DPW worker died and the gas leak leveled 2 homes.

I implore fellow member not to advise diy gas line alterations on this forum. IT should be discouraged and not encouraged. Let professionals do the work.

So the original poster wants to argue the points with me ,yet I willing to bet he has not read one line of the national gas code. If he did then, he would not have made this post in the first place, he would have had the answers.. I also take exception of him promoting and making light of, scoffing gas codes and personal safety and trying to promote it to others.

he want to save a few bucks and tell you its ok to play with gas ,because he is foolish enough to do so and when others pointed this out, he want to argue his foolishness

Sorry steve this is the way I read it. You may not like it, but I'm also thinking of you and your families safety or any innocent neighbors or victims

 

[nshif]

FYI, in Kansas you need a permit and inspection to replace a water heater (I know, I replaced mine last Winter), so check with your local code office.

From the local website:

"Do I need a permit to replace my furnace or water heater?

Yes, a permit is required, and an inspection is performed to ensure the safety of the installation.

If installing a furnace or water heater yourself, call 660-xxxx for advice, assistance and a permit.

If you are paying someone else to install it, call 660-xxx to make sure he or she is licensed to perform such work in Sedgwick County. After it is installed, make sure your contractor calls us for an inspection."

Here is there answer pertaining to gas pipe:

"Can I install my own fuel gas piping?

No. Only plumbers and LP installers licensed in Sedgwick County may install gas piping."

Well here in Ca I can replace my water heater without a permit as long as it uses the same connections as the previous heater ( elec, gas flex. vent etc ) And I ran all my gas pipe in my new construction home just had to have the pressure test inspected. no big deal 10 psi for 10 minutes. I ran 20 psi for 24 hours just to be sure.

 

[hearthtools]

FYI, in Kansas you need a permit and inspection to replace a water heater (I know, I replaced mine last Winter), so check with your local code office.

From the local website:

"Do I need a permit to replace my furnace or water heater?

Yes, a permit is required, and an inspection is performed to ensure the safety of the installation.

If installing a furnace or water heater yourself, call 660-xxxx for advice, assistance and a permit.

If you are paying someone else to install it, call 660-xxx to make sure he or she is licensed to perform such work in Sedgwick County. After it is installed, make sure your contractor calls us for an inspection."

Here is there answer pertaining to gas pipe:

"Can I install my own fuel gas piping?

No. Only plumbers and LP installers licensed in Sedgwick County may install gas piping."

Well here in Ca I can replace my water heater without a permit as long as it uses the same connections as the previous heater ( elec, gas flex. vent etc ) And I ran all my gas pipe in my new construction home just had to have the pressure test inspected. no big deal 10 psi for 10 minutes. I ran 20 psi for 24 hours just to be sure.

You might want to check with your planning department.
All Heating appliances including Water heaters Need a permit to be replaced.
In our county they want a permit for you to take DOWN a old shed.



ELK
I agree with you 100%
before I had My Heating and cooling Contractors Lic. I refused to do any kind of gas line work other that connecting the Appliance connector to valve.

 

[nshif]

You might want to check with your planning department.
All Heating appliances including Water heaters Need a permit to be replaced.
In our county they want a permit for you to take DOWN a old shed.



ELK
I agree with you 100%
before I had My Heating and cooling Contractors Lic. I refused to do any kind of gas line work other that connecting the Appliance connector to valve.

If I replace my wather heater all im doing is connecting the gas to the valve. no different then replacing my gas dryer or stove. I did check with the bldg dept and all they were concerned with was anything to the valve, they cant be bothered to inspect a flex line.
And if my county wanted a permit to remove a shed Id just burn it

 

[elkimmeg]

Hopefully you obtained an open burning permit between Jan 1 and April one If the FD get called in on a complaint and makes an appearances to extinguish it ,that just cost you a
$1000 fine in my town Open burning permits are free. but only include brush yard waste leaves not structures such as sheds

 

[nshif]

If its a burn day I can burn anything but trash. And I could have CDF burn it as a training drill and be fully protected. Getting a permit to tear something down is just plain dumb, unless its a 10 story structure but there really arnt many of those up here in the Sierra, maybe Tahoe

 

[nshif]

Were getting off the original post. I AGREE that cutting into the middle of a gas line is not a good idea for the avg person and should be done by a pro. But disconecting a flex line and flue and reconecting them should be able to be done by almost anyone.

 

[Metal]

nshif-you have a very dangerous mindset. Do you understand that codes change over time? Most water heaters last ~10 years, most codes change quicker than that. When I had mine replaced (by a licensed plumber) they found at least two places my previous water heater didn't meet code (my house is only 9 years old). It met code nine years ago, but it wouldn't today. As a diy'er I doubt you keep up with code changes, and no, it is not just reconnecting the flex and venting.

 

[elkimmeg]

missing it all this is cutting into an old gas line. Can any hazard a guess as to whether that old shut off valve is holding or leaking?

using a sawzall and vibrating old fittings? I can tell you I do know how to go about it, but even I would hire professional help when it comes to gas work.

Ever see what a sawzall does if it binds in a cut? Excuse me if I do not detail how a DIYer should go about doing such work.

 

[nshif]

Metal
I am up on code, Im in the process of building a 2000Sq ft house and have built a few before. I know the inspectors and know what they require. I just replaced a water heater for a neighbor and asked and as long as I wasnt moving the gas valve or the flue I needed no inspection. I have all the code books and know what is required here, maybe different where you live.

 

[Metal]

Nshif-Here is an excerpt from the Amador County Building Website Q& A area(Pioneer, CA is in Amador County):

"Q : I own a small handyman service and was stopped by one of your inspectors and told that I need a permit to install a water heater. Why should I get a permit.
A : A permit is required by State Law to protect you and the customer. Some of the things we look for are, temperature and pressure relief valve, seismic restraints, gas and electrical hook ups, and proper venting. These are safety items and if not properly installed, could easily cause injury or even death."

You can see it for youself at:

http://www.co.amador.ca.us/depts/building/index.cfm?id=3

 

[nshif]

Yes if that was an initial install I agree. but it doesnt specify if it was a replacement, and doesnt even sound like he is a lisenced contractor.
BUT
I did contact the bldg dept again and was told that yes there is a permit required, but nobody gets them and they have no way of knowing untill somebody does it wrong. To me its a 50$ rip off but I guess to a moron it may save his life. BTW I asked how many they issue a year and the guess was less then 100.
I also asked if I replaced my gas fired stove with down draft vent if Id need a permit and the answer was no. seems just as dangerous if not worse. My stove can be 50K btu and my WH just 30

 

[MrWinkey]

I think the basic point everybody is getting at here is.....

A. Yes someone COULD do it on thier own.

B. It's not a good idea.

My county will allow you to get a permit to run your own gas lines if they are hard line IE basicly water pipe and the inspector does a pressure check of the lines. To run flex gas line you need a liscensed contractor no if ands or buts.

If you do something wrong/incorrectly you are your own warranty station. Dont expect your homeowners insurance to cover you if your house explodes/floods/catches fire due to your incorrectly done home modifications.

Do you really want to risk the lives of your family, your humble abode or your pets to save a few bucks?

Get a permit then you can chat w/ the inspector after he says "Hey looks great to me!" about what pellets he likes to burn in his stove and how much he likes the metal roofing ya put on.

 

[nshif]

On the original topic This is NOT something any DIYer should attempt. It is dangerous. I ran my own gas pipe ( not water pipe but black ) and I did put in a few tees with plugs for future expansion, but if I had to saw it apart Id call a pro.

 

[MrGriz]

My common sense just tells me that if I'm about to saw into a gas line in my home and I have an epiphany that suddenly I'm not sure what I'm doing and my first instinct is to turn to an internet forum for help; I'm in way over my head.

There are plenty of DIY projects that I will tackle, but when it comes to things that can blow my house to oz I'm calling a pro.

 

[R&D Guy]

Steve,

The title did make me think - Yikes, that doesn't sound good! But like the advice everyone gives on here you have to take it with a grain of salt. The VC, Quad, Regency, brand "X" dealers on here will tell you that the unit they sell is The One that will do the job and make you warm and happy and you're sure to hear the worst case scenario if you don't buy theirs. It makes sence, they've made a living doing it and made a lot of customers happy and if everyone buys from someone else they'll be out of business. After you hear about how bullet proof the unit is they'll tell you how you have to buy from them because of the post install "service," and the work/maintenance work the (once) bullet proof unit needs and can only be done by them.

Same for the private inspector. They make a living selling their service and if everyone did it themselves w/o inspections they'd be out of business and your city would collect a lot less taxes. So you will hear them insist that it's the only way to go, and you're sure to hear the worst case scenario if you don't. It also makes sense since they've made a living double checking peoples work, and caught issues that may have saved lives and countless dollars. On the other hand the first thing they will have you sign - after the check - is a long disclaimer telling you they are in no way responsible if something they inspected turns out not to be to code, and or causes injury or death. I'm sure Elk would be the first to admit that even if you hired him personally to check a pro install that he can and will not guarantee it was done correctly or without the possibility of defect or failure. It's just another safety measure.

Like I said, when I read the title, my gut reaction was, "Yikes" but I've run the flexible $10 a foot SS gas line in my own home without a permit or inspection and I did it off of a tee in my garage. When I informed my insurance agent about the new DIY'er gas fireplace install in my bedroom they weren't in the least concerned about covering it. After all you pay them to assume your risk.

The question you have to ask yourself is if you know enough to do it safely, or do you know just enough to be dangerous.

 

[saichele]

Have to admit the responses here were not as helpful as I might have hoped. But for better or for worse I went down the line a ways, broke a union, and fitted the rest of the run with a nice little manifold setup right where it enters the structure, so if I ever need to do this again I'm in better shape. Checked all the dope with soapy water, everything's good. Would have been easier to drop a T and a union in mid-run, but this is probably a better long-term solution anyway because it leaves room for future growth.

I've had good luck with this board in the past on two stove installs, and some other sundry projects - welding, auto repair, plumbing. I'm a little surprised this one lit off such a heated discussion.

Steve