Critiques of Blaze King Stoves...Exist ?

[webby3650]

You seem to already have your mind made up. The things that you are omitting are the very reason they are more expensive. A very large part of the expense of these stoves is the testing required to bring it to market. Making the air control work with the cat is complicated.

 

[webby3650]

The current "sale" price on the PH is $3,063+shipping. The BK Princess Ultra is $2,750 with no shipping.

 

[tarzan]

Now that you girls have had it out ( what's with all this thin skinned hurt feelings ? ), the original question remains besides enthusiasm and brand 'loyalty':
Why the diff in $$$ for the BK appliance ?
Forget the thermostatic control ( it's an old, simple mechanical device ).
Forget the cat ( that too has been around ).
So why so much more $$$ ?
What is it that the buyer get for that extra money compared to other cat AND non-cat wood stoves ?
An inconvenient truth for us Easterners is that except for the BK Ashfords, those BK stoves are ugly. Are we spoiled with those
oh so pretty cast beauties like Jotul, Morso, Hearthstone, Woodstock, and, and,....even the look of VC ?

Man, you should have known to expect some bickering when you posted this thread.

Now you're all but demanding we tell you why BK's cost what they do. Guess what? We don't know! We're a forum of consumers. Best to contact BK if you "really" want a detailed answer to that question.

 

[2fireplacesinSC]

Now that you girls have had it out ( what's with all this thin skinned hurt feelings ? ), the original question remains besides enthusiasm and brand 'loyalty':
Why the diff in $$$ for the BK appliance ?
Forget the thermostatic control ( it's an old, simple mechanical device ).
Forget the cat ( that too has been around ).
So why so much more $$$ ?
What is it that the buyer get for that extra money compared to other cat AND non-cat wood stoves ?
An inconvenient truth for us Easterners is that except for the BK Ashfords, those BK stoves are ugly. Are we spoiled with those
oh so pretty cast beauties like Jotul, Morso, Hearthstone, Woodstock, and, and,....even the look of VC ?

Maybe part of the answer lies in your post here "us Easterners". Shipping may play a part.

I do agree, though, if the price were lower I'd have one. Just couldn't justify the $4,200 for a princess insert the local stove store was trying to get for one at the time. That's the price of a decent sized new Heat Pump installed around here.

I think the new ones are nicer looking. Unfortunately, the only fire place I met clearances for BK is now taken up with another brand (price dropped, too bad now).

I think the question itself is reasonable in a market environment. Justify the price you are charging. Your question appears answered partially thus far. Most people do seem to think that the BK "alien" capabilities are beyond those of other stoves, and worth the price difference if only from a usability standpoint. The thermostatic control and cat may be old technology, but the combination that leads to the magical low-slow BK burn is outside of the capability of other stoves, apparently.

It's sort of like Apple products, I guess. Apple's products are in certain ways average, but brought together in the total package, it is a premium product and people are willing to pay more for that simple usability.

Personal opinion added for free: I also think most stove manufacturers would do well to realize a wife prefers a prettier stove and that will frequently get the sale to happen.

 

[2fireplacesinSC]

That was $4,200 for the insert only. install was over/beyond that

 

[JA600L]

I agree with you about the price of the bk. It's basically a metal box with a thermostat and cat. If you go with Woodstock they are very generous and load the stove full of art and technology for a fair price. You know what the best part is? They both have the same efficiency rating. Meaning, both stoves put the same amount of heat into your house. 30, 40 hour burn or not, your still getting the same heat.

 

[Woody Stover]

Not sure why you think this, the Princess and King models have been succesful for a long time.....progress had smoke issues on the door side,(ws responded quickly as I'd expect), screen and cat seem to plug with ash regularly. The IS has a radiator that warps/flakes along with the andirons warping. Let's not act like other stove don't have their issues

True, no stove is perfect. Those are new models though, so you are gonna have some growing pains and they have a history of standing behind their products and providing free fixes.

BK's are better than a Buck, dutchwest or a keystone... I have no idea why you could be so down on a BK? .....nearly indestructible, have incredible factory support and over 40 years of experience.

The first thing that had me raising an eyebrow was the over-the-top proclamations that "this stove is the best ever, no other can come close, etc, etc, blah, blah..." Most of the hype is from new users to cat stoves. All cats are pretty damned predictable (non-downdraft, that is.) I wasn't aggressive enough, early enough, with my air-control tweaks on the Buck 91, or I would have had that stove eating out of my hand from the get-go. The looser air control is the price you pay to have a stove that can crank out big heat. You have total control with the BK, can't over-fire it with the air wide open, they say, but I've heard that their top end is a bit lacking. If you over-size the stove, that could still work...
As to longevity, how long have the current iterations of their stoves been in the field? The reason I ask is that their construction may have changed over the years. Is there anyone here who has run a current-constuction BK for ten or fifteen years? As I looked into the BKs further, I saw that they were a couple hundred pounds lighter than comparable stoves from other makers such as Woodstock and Buck. To me, that spells lightweight construction, yet they charge a premium price. I can see why a PH costs what it does, with the castings, the stones and more labor-intensive construction. I don't know about the PH, but the stone Woodstocks I've had have been chock-full of cast iron parts in the top end. Maybe this isn't the case in their steel stoves/hybrids. But I say, if your stove is the same weight and construction as a budget stove at the box store, the price should be equally light weight. OK, I'll concede that cat stoves do cost more, across the board...
To me, a long, low burn isn't worth that thousand dollars more that you are gonna pay for the BK stoves. What is worth a lot to me is having the ease of a good, grated ash-handling system. Over the life of the stove, the savings for me in time and hassle is going to out-weigh the inconvenience of not having the super-long low burn. But everybody's gotta make these choices for themselves based on what they think they want over the long haul. All this is hard to envision for the newb who has just entered the wood-burning world.
At any rate, this stuff, as well as what I've seen in the manuals as far as construction, has my 'spidey sense' up, and for me, the jury is still out on the BK line. Not at all convinced they are "nearly indestructible." I certainly think they are over-priced, for what they appear to be. But that's the American Way, get as much as you can for your product. So far, they've been able to convince many buyers that there is value there, so maybe I'm all wet. It's possible that when I finally get a first-hand look at the new Woodstock steel stoves, I won't be all that impressed with their construction either. But they will still be a couple hundred pounds heavier and a thousand bucks cheaper...

If I had an extra I'd bring it over so you could see what you're missing

OK, let me know when you have one, and I'll run up there and grab it for a test drive. But leave a space at the shop so I can bring it back when it's full of ashes...ain't no way I'm shoveling 'em out!

 

[rdust]

Why the diff in $$$ for the BK appliance ?

So why so much more $$$ ?

I haven't priced stoves in a while but honestly I don't remember the BK stoves being "so much more $$$" than other quality brands. Can you provide the pricing compare you've done, I'm interested to see the difference.

 

[Woody Stover]

both stoves put the same amount of heat into your house. 30, 40 hour burn or not, your still getting the same heat.

Right. If you have a tight house, it has a good "heat life" and it should be able to stretch that heat, even if it was released into the envelope quicker. Our house isn't tight but we live in a moderate climate so I can get away with shorter burn times, as the house isn't losing heat as fast. But when it gets cold and windy out, all bets are off and it's pedal to the metal!

 

[webby3650]

True, no stove is perfect. Those are new models though, so you are gonna have some growing pains and they have a history of standing behind their products and providing free fixes.
The first thing that had me raising an eyebrow was the over-the-top proclamations that "this stove is the best ever, no other can come close, etc, etc, blah, blah..." Most of the hype is from new users to cat stoves. All cats are pretty damned predictable (non-downdraft, that is.) I wasn't aggressive enough, early enough, with my air-control tweaks on the Buck 91, or I would have had that stove eating out of my hand from the get-go. The looser air control is the price you pay to have a stove that can crank out big heat. You have total control with the BK, can't over-fire it with the air wide open, they say, but I've heard that their top end is a bit lacking. If you over-size the stove, that could still work...
As to longevity, how long have the current iterations of their stoves been in the field? The reason I ask is that their construction may have changed over the years. Is there anyone here who has run a current-constuction BK for ten or fifteen years? As I looked into the BKs further, I saw that they were a couple hundred pounds lighter than comparable stoves from other makers such as Woodstock and Buck. To me, that spells lightweight construction, yet they charge a premium price. I can see why a PH costs what it does, with the castings, the stones and more labor-intensive construction. I don't know about the PH, but the stone Woodstocks I've had have been chock-full of cast iron parts in the top end. Maybe this isn't the case in their steel stoves/hybrids. But I say, if your stove is the same weight and construction as a budget stove at the box store, the price should be equally light weight. OK, I'll concede that cat stoves do cost more, across the board...
To me, a long, low burn isn't worth that thousand dollars more that you are gonna pay for the BK stoves. What is worth a lot to me is having the ease of a good, grated ash-handling system. Over the life of the stove, the savings for me in time and hassle is going to out-weigh the inconvenience of not having the super-long low burn. But everybody's gotta make these choices for themselves based on what they think they want over the long haul. All this is hard to envision for the newb who has just entered the wood-burning world.
At any rate, this stuff, as well as what I've seen in the manuals as far as construction, has my 'spidey sense' up, and for me, the jury is still out on the BK line. Not at all convinced they are "nearly indestructible." I certainly think they are over-priced, for what they appear to be. But that's the American Way, get as much as you can for your product. So far, they've been able to convince many buyers that there is value there, so maybe I'm all wet. It's possible that when I finally get a first-hand look at the new Woodstock steel stoves, I won't be all that impressed with their construction either. But they will still be a couple hundred pounds heavier and a thousand bucks cheaper... OK, let me know when you have one, and I'll run up there and grab it for a test drive. But leave a space at the shop so I can bring it back when it's full of ashes...ain't no way I'm shoveling 'em out!

I love the ash plug system, I never ever shovel ashes. Except in the quadra-fire. It's grate system sucks beyond belief.

 

[Woody Stover]

I haven't priced stoves in a while but honestly I don't remember the BK stoves being "so much more $$$" than other quality brands. Can you provide the pricing compare you've done, I'm interested to see the difference.

The bare-bones Woodstock IS is $1742. Now, I would need some options, but there you have it. Woodstock has by far the best prices and cheapest parts of about any stove. The Buck 91 is around 3K...the Kuma Sequoia might be cheaper, and is probably the only reasonable option to BK for west-coast cat buyers, where the shipping wouldn't kill ya.

 

[Woody Stover]

I love the ash plug system, I never ever shovel ashes. Except in the quadra-fire. It's grate system sucks beyond belief.

Actually, the ash dump in the Buck was usable. It was big, had a flip-up lid, and was off to one side so you could segregate the coals away to the other side and just sweep the ashes into the dump with the side of the shovel.
So the IR grate stinks...good to know.

 

[JA600L]

The Blaze king King is 460lbs according to their brochure.

The Ideal Steel is 620lbs.

 

[BKVP]

Contact @BKVP . He will make it right.

If the actual purchase was made before Friday, October 28, you are entitled to the free set of blowers. Contact me via a PM and I will get this resolved.

 

[BKVP]

No, the older cat Defiants from the 90's when they were problem free, had a reliable thermostatic control that once the cat lit off, would run low, slow, and clean; easily long burns overnight with a full load of dry hardwoods in a VT winter. The operative word is "problem free". Our old ones would run so clean that the spring flue cleanings produced barely a cup full of dry ash each year.
But, those stove were a big fat PITA to maintain; complex, expensive parts, difficult to repair and rebuild as some hearth posts have stated.
The thermostatic primary air controls are not new.
So, why the big $$$ for BK ?

The bimetallic springs in the old units, including ours, were "off the shelf". Each and every model we make has a different spring, therefore, they are not interchangeable. The amount and time in engineering springs to pass each and every burn rate is more than extensive. Additionally, in the models that had the off the shelf springs and also had a combustor, the off the shelf springs did not protect the combustor from hitting high enough temperatures to hurt the wash coat on the combustors. Another additionally, the newer, unit specific springs are more engineered to provide a better "shock absorber effect" to the very nature of cordwood, which is not a metered fuel. In doing so, the units we make provide the most consistent heating effect per load. (That is true and also a bit of marketing that last part).

 

[lsucet]

i believe there is different type the steel and thickness and weight don,t says nothing. the best product from any manufacture today are those with main characteristics of lighter, efficient, etc etc. and we will see that more in the future when materials became more affordable to consumers.

the 80% of my ranch house is off the ground and it is an old house with additions. when i ripped the carpet, flooring, etc. good lord everything was in good condition and was not necessary any repair. but i always will keep in mind it is an old house .

The stoves are on the part of the house that is off the ground. if i can installed an stove that is lighter, efficient, dont overheat my hearth etc, it is a winning, winning, winning deal. NOW, my Englanders stoves are more heavy than the Princess. is that mean that they better stove than the Princess? because they weight more? cause the overheat my flooring 10 times more than the princess?. With the princess my heath is at room temp. do you know how happy i am that i am not transmitting all that heat to the floor?. i think that those are some points to take in consideration when you rate a product, his efficiency, performance and safety in the long run. Oh I AM NOT TALKING BAD ABOUT THE OTHER STOVES. I WILL USE THEM ONE DAY ON DIFFERENT APPLICATION.

 

[DUMF]

You seem to already have your mind made up. The things that you are omitting are the very reason they are more expensive. A very large part of the expense of these stoves is the testing required to bring it to market. Making the air control work with the cat is complicated.

No, no, and no.

I wouldn't be posting the question if I had made up the mind ( "...terrible thing to waste." ).

All manufacturers of anything of quality like cars, SmartFons, spend $$$ , testing and research $$$ to go to market, it's business. VC did it way back and failed under a not too bright series of owners. Jotul did it when they dropped their cat, and were successful in the successive line of non cats. It's the cost of business. Woodstock took years and $$$ to go to market and succeeded in their direct selling model. BTW: forcing a consumer to deal ONLY with dealers is not always the better approach. Some dealers just want to sell, not service whether stoves, cars, chainsaws, etc.....

The coil thermostat with a cat is basic engineering; not complicated. It's not nuclear science, or the genomic basics of cancer.

I am impressed that the BKVP is on this open, informative forum with equally impressive responses to problems. Damn, that is not common. Congrads!!

 

[lsucet]

90% of technologies are old. just some companies take the time, cost etc to make it work at different level and an affordable way if possible. it is old and not complicated like you said, but why other companies don,t want it go that route and develop it. well who knows. Now that it is complicated.

Dealers, Oh boy. 90 % of what you buy it is from a dealer, at hardware store the products you buy is cause they are dealers for those manufactures. Including when you buy online 90% of the times are from dealers. New cars, boats etc etc etc.

 

[Ashful]

The current "sale" price on the PH is $3,063+shipping. The BK Princess Ultra is $2,750 with no shipping.

Let's just call it as it is, since we see shipping costs most often quoted around $700, if you live any distance from the Woodstock factory.

Woodstock PH = $3800
BK Princess = $2750

So, at 28% lower delivered cost, why does DUMF keep asking the cost question, over and over?

 

[Ashful]

From what I've seen, I just don't think they are built to go the distance, and that folks are going to be buying a lot of expensive parts to keep these things going.

From what you've seen? You must have ESP.

I've never had a BK, or even seen one.

 

[JA600L]

Let's just call it as it is, since we see shipping costs most often quoted around $700, if you live any distance from the Woodstock factory.

Woodstock PH = $3800
BK Princess = $2750

So, at 28% lower delivered cost, why does DUMF keep asking the cost question, over and over?

When I got my Ideal steel shipped to lancaster PA it cost me $110. My friend also got one so we both saved a little money having two dropped off at the dock. My stove with ALL of the options only cost me $2310 delivered. I could have driven and picked it up for a little less, but that seemed pretty good to me.

When you open the package and get a first look at these stoves, looks alone make you instantly satisfied with your decision. Pictures will never ever do their stoves justice. I hated the look of the absolute steel from the pictures. My friend got a plain one with no wings and I helped him install it. The second I saw it I loved it. They really are pieces of art with great functionality.

 

[Highbeam]

I bought my princess ultra, fully loaded, all options, for under 3000$ at my local dealer for full price. That was and is cheaper than the hearthstone heritage it replaced. The bk stoves are expensive compared to an Englander nc30, which I also own, but not when compared to other high end brands plus bk offers performance unmatched by anybody else. Only recently has another cat stove begun to come close and that brand is relatively obscure for now. You can bet bk is watching though and expanding their line to remain competitive. I do believe that bk prices are inflated by the additional profit margins supporting all of the local dealers as well as middle men distributors for the east coast guys.

I don't buy a stove by weight. That's silly. List the things important in a stove purchase and weight should not be there. Durability should be on the list and I have found through my hearthstone experience that high weight does not get you high durability.

I was recently looking into new pe stoves and the t5 or t6 I was liking each cost well over 3000$.

 

[BKVP]

No, no, and no.

I wouldn't be posting the question if I had made up the mind ( "...terrible thing to waste." ).

All manufacturers of anything of quality like cars, SmartFons, spend $$$ , testing and research $$$ to go to market, it's business. VC did it way back and failed under a not too bright series of owners. Jotul did it when they dropped their cat, and were successful in the successive line of non cats. It's the cost of business. Woodstock took years and $$$ to go to market and succeeded in their direct selling model. BTW: forcing a consumer to deal ONLY with dealers is not always the better approach. Some dealers just want to sell, not service whether stoves, cars, chainsaws, etc.....

The coil thermostat with a cat is basic engineering; not complicated. It's not nuclear science, or the genomic basics of cancer.

I am impressed that the BKVP is on this open, informative forum with equally impressive responses to problems. Damn, that is not common. Congrads!!

Perhaps you should try to pass Method 28R with your "not complicated" observations. If they were simple and passing Method 28R was not difficult using them, would you not expect to many more stoves on the market using them. You are invited anytime to visit with us in Walla Walla. I am 100% certain your appreciation for combustion engineering would be enhanced.

 

[lsucet]

i am trying to learn how upload pictures.

 

[lsucet]

looks like everything went thru