Cracked stone on Tribute.

[KeithO]

It looks like the study materials are about $400 and taking the exam a bit less than $500. It is operated out of Indianapolis IN. Details below.

(broken link removed to http://www.csia.org/TradeResources/EarntheCCSCredential/tabid/134/Default.aspx)

OK, so I still suggest the damper. You only have to drill 2 holes in the stovepipe in a location that you can get the butterfly into the pipe and hold it while inserting the shaft. I would recommend above the first join in the stovepipe. This will allow the probe thermometer to go just below the join (maybe 6-8" below). The probe thermometer only requires drilling a 1/4" hole in single wall stovepipe. In double wall you need a 1/4" in the outer pipe and 3/16" in the inner (holds the probe straighter and prevents leakage of flue gas between inner and outer. Don't forget to remove the probe before sweeping the chimney...

You will have to adjust the damper empirically by running with the draft maybe 1/5th open and then closing the damper until the stove remains "in control" and won't overfire (flue gas less than 900F should really be stable around 600F at that draft setting). The adjustments need time to stabilize, the fire needs sufficient time to reach steady state. If you think you have it, check it again next time you re-load. Just bear in mind that taming the draft will make lighting from cold more difficult. Since re-setting the damper is not very repeatable (unless you fit a pointer and a scale yourself), avoid the temptation to constantly open it for every cold start and try to adjust it as the load "fires up" since you are bound to make a mistake. Just do like they say in the manual, which is crack the door until the blaze is lit.

 

[jeffman3]

Thanks KeithO

I'll look into the damper, and I am going to order a probe. I am thinking that I may look into further study and possibly certification. There is a definite lack of knowledgeable help here locally. I know lots of people that are switching to burning wood, and some of them are not as concerned about "doing it right" as others. I refer as many as I can to this sight. If nothing else, maybe I could get some side work, (after learning a whole lot more.)?

Thanks for the info.

 

[Highbeam]

Has Hearthstone ever said that you overfired your stove?

Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.

 

[jeffman3]

Has Hearthstone ever said that you overfire your stove?

Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.

Hearthstone has never said I over-fired the stove, however Tom made it pretty clear to everyone fallowing this thread that I "nearly beat it to death. ", and I know for a fact he talked to Jim, at Hearthstone, and they collaborated on how to settle this warranty claim. I also know for a fact that Brian, the Hearthstone Rep. collaborated with Jim on this as well. (Thank you Brian.) No one other then Tom has said I over-fired the stove, to me. The one person that really has the authority to say this is over-fire, and we are not going to cover the damage, is Jim, and he has never said I over-fired the stove, thus, they are covering all the parts, shipping, gaskets, and cement for the rebuild. I do truly believe that the airing of this on the open forum has helped my case. (Bad publicity is a death sentence in today's world of the inter-net. Thank you Hearth.com!)

My real hope is that Hearthstone will change their manual, to accurately reflect the capacity of the stoves. I truly believe that they are intentionally making it seem simpler then it really is, to understand, and control these stoves. It is entirely possible to irreparably damage a Hearthstone stove, with-out ever varying from the written instructions, guild-lines, or limits laid out in the owners manual. My case proves that!

 

[karri0n]

Quick thought...


Soapstone is not magnetic, and therefore a magnetic thermo won't be pressed as tightly to stone as it would be to cast/steel. I can't imagine that heat transfer would be as efficient, but once again, the manual specifically states stovetop thermometer not above 600. If he followed that, he should get a brand new Equinox free of charge

 

[jeffman3]

Quick thought...


Soapstone is not magnetic, and therefore a magnetic thermo won't be pressed as tightly to stone as it would be to cast/steel. I can't imagine that heat transfer would be as efficient, but once again, the manual specifically states stovetop thermometer not above 600. If he followed that, he should get a brand new Equinox free of charge

The Equinox would be a bit to much stove for my home! :lol: ,but a new stove would have been appropriate I think, but I am satisfied, with the parts, and supplies to do the rebuild, I just hope that other Hearthstone soapstone owners are made aware that you can damage the stove with-in the limits set forth by Hearthstone. They need to make some adjustments to the manual IMHO.

 

[KeithO]

Keith, does the probe meter go above the damper? I thought it was supposed to but it sounds like you recommend putting it below the flue damper.

Highbeam:

It depends what you are trying to achieve. If you want to know how warm the flue is, then you could put the probe 2ft or more above the damper. Since the damper redirects the flow around it on 2 sides, it has a big "dead zone" directly above the damper plate. The damper plate also has a fair amount of mass, so in a situation like after reloading where the stove has cooled, the reading of the flue gas above the damper will be lowered by heat absorption by the damper plate.

Since this thread has been about preventing damage caused by high firebox / secondary burn temperatures, I would imagine that we are trying to get the best possible idea about the secondary burn temperature without actually drilling any holes in the stove. I don't recommend putting the probe directly above the stove connector, since this is another point where the flow has to make about a 90 degree turn and hence getting the probe in the "correct" position can be a crap shoot.

For that reason, about 18-24" above the stove connector is good. If you think about it, you are giving the flow 3-4 pipe diameters to straighten out and settle down to some kind of orderly pattern (laminar flow, as they would say). Since the damper plate can extend about 3" below the shaft (fully open), if you go no less than 6" below the damper you should be fine. Aesthetics will as always (for us married men) play a part in the arrangement, just as long as one doesn't reverse the probe/damper position.

The flue temperature won't change measurably over the 2 ft (unless you take into account the anomalies caused by the flow taking the bend). This can be verified using an infrared thermometer. By the time you get to 6-8 ft there will of course be a reduction in temperature, but not nearly as much as what one has outside of the heated space.

 

[jeffman3]

I received the parts from Hearthstone today. After reading through the step by step again, I hope I haven't gotten over my head. I plan to replace the door now, and seal every thing up (as best I can) and limp through till spring. (unless further problems arise, and/or I can't control the burn) Sound reasonable?

 

[KeithO]

Did you see this post ? https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/351479/

If the probe thermometer runs over 900F, you will need to do something to get it under control.

Keith

 

[Highbeam]

Sounds very reasonable. I would be pretty liberal with the cement on the inside of that cracekd stone and do a clean job of filling it on the outside.

 

[Zulu45]

Keith, largely because of your posts in this thread, I purchased the Condar probe flue thermometer for my Hearthstone Heritage and installed it ~8inches behind the stove in the double walled horizontal exit pipe. Since day one of the stove install (early Nov.), I have had a known good surface thermometer on the top center stone of the stove. Surface temps have never been above 550°F . The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achive surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . At first, this scared the $rap out of me! However, after a few days of monitoring the settings and resulting flue temperatures, it became apparent to me that if my Condar probe was accurate, it would be largely impossible to opporate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F. While I have access to calibrated thermometers good to 550°F (have worked in R&D;~20yrs), i don't have access known good thermometers/thermocouple good to ~1000°F...hence, i have a second Condar probe on the way.

The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft!

Thanks again for the free education in your previous posts,

Tim

 

[karri0n]

Keith, largely because of your posts in this thread, I purchased the Condar probe flue thermometer for my Hearthstone Heritage and installed it ~8inches behind the stove in the double walled horizontal exit pipe. Since day one of the stove install (early Nov.), I have had a known good surface thermometer on the top center stone of the stove. Surface temps have never been above 550°F . The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achive surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . At first, this scared the $rap out of me! However, after a few days of monitoring the settings and resulting flue temperatures, it became apparent to me that if my Condar probe was accurate, it would be largely impossible to opporate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F. While I have access to calibrated thermometers good to 550°F (have worked in R&D;~20yrs), i don't have access known good thermometers/thermocouple good to ~1000°F...hence, i have a second Condar probe on the way.

The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft!

Thanks again for the free education in your previous posts,

Tim

I'm intrigued. How did you come to this conclusion?

 

[Zulu45]

900°F appears to be the "safe" upper limit for steady state flue temps.....the air intake setting( and corresponding stove temps) in my post above correspond to a ~900°F flue temp...with my suspect Condar probe.

 

[karri0n]

It's consistently 900°F, regardless of north/south or east/west loading, how full the firebox is, outdoor vs. indoor temp(or windy days, other things that affect draft) ?

 

[jeffman3]

Sounds very reasonable. I would be pretty liberal with the cement on the inside of that cracekd stone and do a clean job of filling it on the outside.

Thanks Highbeam, I 'll do that. I am really hoping that this all works out. Next, I think I am looking into a blower. (after I rebuild the stove) I just can't put the scratch together for a different stove right now. (or the foreseeable future) I hope someday to replace this stove with something a bit bigger, and also put one in the basement as well, but for now I have what I have. I really need to make this work

 

[karri0n]

The blower will lower your temps and probably prevent something like this in the future.

 

[jeffman3]

The blower will lower your temps and probably prevent something like this in the future.

That's my hope, that and maximizing the heat distribution. You just can't run these stoves as hot as the manual says you can. You need to keep the temps well below the documented high end, to prevent this type of damage.

 

[jeffman3]

Did you see this post ? https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/351479/

If the probe thermometer runs over 900F, you will need to do something to get it under control.

Keith

Thanks Keith

 

[KeithO]

Tim:
I have about 10ft of single wall pipe with a 180 degree heat shield (for the rear wall). This is followed by about 16ft of class A, so about 26ft total height straight up. My original Morso 7110 had a distinctly sharp cutoff at the end of the primary air control lever stroke. Opening that air control lever 1/8" would have the fire blazing when it was fired up, so adjustment of the air control was very sensitive. Now with the Pacific Energy stove, I could close the primary all the way, and the flue would still run over 900F, sometimes up to 1100F. So I am not at all surprised that with a 40ft internal chimney you overfire with the air above 15%.

I would expect that after about an hour, the volatiles will drop off and with that the flue temperatures will drop too. By that time, the stove top temperature should have leveled off and the stove top to flue temperatures should close up some. The problem with this scenario is that while running flue temperatures in the 1100 to 1400 range you will be doing progressive damage to your stove, particularly if it is not designed the best. If you keep the flue temp to the 900-1000 range, it will take longer to get the stove top to temperature, but you will get there, because after the violent initial secondary burn dies off things calm down some. You, like me and many others needs some help in taming the draft some.

The flue probe thermometer has been installed for roughly one week. If I run the stove with my historical running air intake settings (15% to 50% open) to achieve surface temps of 350-450°F, my new flue probe thermometer will indicate exhaust gas temperatures of 950-1300°F . ---snip--- it would be largely impossible to operate the stove with over ~15% intake air and surface stove temps greater than ~300°F. ..hence, i have a second Condor probe on the way.

The only confounding factor in my set-up, a ~40 foot interior brick chimney (lined with 6 SS)..it likes to draft!
Tim

 

[ftjhs2]

I just noticed a crack in the bottom right stone on the side of my Tribute that is leaking creosote, so it is definately all the way through. After reading this thread, I'm not very optomistic that I'm going to get much help from HS. I hope I'm wrong. I bought this thing in Aug and have been very happy with it, but I am surprised this happened. I have a thermometer on the top and I don't think I've ever seen it go over 400F and no other parts appear warped. If this turns out to be a problem I guess I'll have to go back to iron. Slathering the thing with stove cement seems to defeat the purpose of having a nice looking stove. I hope HS realizes what this sort of thing does to their reputation. I'll post the response I get from them, I just saw the crack today so it might take awhile.

 

[grsimmon]

I recently posted another thread asking if soapstone is the best material for non-cats. After reading this thread I'm thinking that soapstone is actually the exact opposite - the worst material for non-cats. Thanks to everyone especially Keith for all the info.

 

[Later]

Hearthstone tells you how to run the stove - you operate it that way - it breaks - Hearthstone and/or their dealer tells you that you screwed up. I'd buy another stove thinking that Hearthstone may(?) be a good stove, but not for me. Hey I once bought an AMC Pacer, but I didn't buy another.

 

[edthedawg]

AK, Bethel, and Retired - I truly hate the thought of perpetuating this old thread, but them's a heap of blanket assumptions y'all are making. This thread and the "non-cat" thread referenced both are LOADED with happy Hearthstone owners who have no such issues as the few highlighted. This isn't hype - it's a good product. You have to size it and run it right tho.

akburner - how much Alaskan square footage are you trying to heat with that tiny stove? Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it. I'm not saying you run your stove wrong - but you seem to indicate you have a crack in it with "leaking creosote"?? why not share some of the specifics of your situation, setup, and operating methods in a new thread and see if we can help.

 

[grsimmon]

AK, Bethel, and Retired - I truly hate the thought of perpetuating this old thread, but them's a heap of blanket assumptions y'all are making. This thread and the "non-cat" thread referenced both are LOADED with happy Hearthstone owners who have no such issues as the few highlighted. This isn't hype - it's a good product. You have to size it and run it right tho.

akburner - how much Alaskan square footage are you trying to heat with that tiny stove? Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it. I'm not saying you run your stove wrong - but you seem to indicate you have a crack in it with "leaking creosote"?? why not share some of the specifics of your situation, setup, and operating methods in a new thread and see if we can help.

I have no argument with what you're saying. I don't doubt there are plenty of happy Hearthstone owners. I do think that KeithO raised some very good / interesting points however.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Just because the stovetop never read over 400 doesn't mean you didn't overfire it.

What????? What on earth do you mean by that?!