considering a small woodstove, looking for advice

[tedzap]

All, thanks for all the good replies, I appreciate the input.

To answer a few more questions that have been raised, access to the "office space" is from a deck and the garage structure is next to a bank. If I get a stove then I will build a catwalk from the deck to the bank (almost level) which will get me away from the house and to the wood source.

The place I have in mind for a stove is the corner on your right as you walk in. I have quite a bit of open space there, and can provide 6' along each wall for the stove... 36 square feet. One of these walls has a window, is that a problem?

Originally I stated that I was looking for a long burn time... and after reading your input I'd modify that to: moderate, even heating. I have a friend who heats his house with a cast-non-cat stove and it always seems to be extreme heat "when he puts the wood to it". His house is big enough that this heat has someplace to go, but in my little space it could get overwhelming.

I have three 60" ceiling fans going into the space which (although slow speed) should circulate the air well.

Regarding a secondary heat source, I expect I'll have to put in something, if nothing else a few strips of baseboard heat to keep things from freezing if I am away.

Relative to cost, the Woodstock stoves which are on sale are within my budget. I also found a place that will sell me a F100 Jotul for (just) under $1k.



Thanks again,
-Ted

 

[tedzap]

Also, the "feel" of the place is going to be "Irish Pub", with dark wood floor, wainscoting, and ceiling. I would think that most classic (non-modern) stoves would work aesthetically.

 

[BrotherBart]

I am not a fan of cast iron stoves, steel stove guy myself even though I own two cast stoves, but in that decor and space I think the F3 CB would like it was born for the place and it holds a little more wood than the F100. And even at list price it would come in just a little over a thousand after the tax credit.

 

[tedzap]

This internet thing is great. In two days I have receieved a wealth of information which came from actual users instead of the person trying to make a sale. Thanks. From all that I have gathered, I am leaning toward the simplicity of a non-cat stove.

I talked to a (reasonably close) Jotul dealer and he thinks that I'd be happier with the F3CB because it wouldn't be running as hard which would result in a longer burn. The bigger firebox and ash box would also be convenient, and he claims that the internal air management of the F3 is superior.

The prices of the Jotul stoves after the tax rebate (but pre sales tax) is:

F3 CB $945
F100 $697

Any opinions on whether the F3 worth the 35% price bump? I am pretty sure that any installation costs qualify for the tax rebate program, but does the piping/chimney hardware?

If I go this route, should I go single-wall or double wall on the connector pipe?

Thanks,
-Ted

 

[tedzap]

It seems to me when designing the chimney your goal is achieving the best draft possible... This will result in the easiest fire starting, and the least smoke in the house.

Toward this goal I think the best setup would be to have a top exit on the stove, use double wall connector pipe, have plenty of overall height, and no bends anywhere. A "straight shot up".

Am I correct in this? How much would a rear exit with a 90 degree bend affect this draw? My house was originally heated with a wood furnace with a poor chimney, and I have an aversion to smoke in the house.

 

[fossil]

...I think the best setup would be to have a top exit on the stove, use double wall connector pipe, have plenty of overall height, and no bends anywhere. A "straight shot up". Am I correct in this?...

Yes. For the reasons you stated and for ease of periodic sweeping/cleaning. Rick

 

[Highbeam]

It seems to me when designing the chimney your goal is achieving the best draft possible... This will result in the easiest fire starting, and the least smoke in the house.

Toward this goal I think the best setup would be to have a top exit on the stove, use double wall connector pipe, have plenty of overall height, and no bends anywhere. A "straight shot up".

Am I correct in this? How much would a rear exit with a 90 degree bend affect this draw? My house was originally heated with a wood furnace with a poor chimney, and I have an aversion to smoke in the house.

Yes, your totally vertical double wall setup is ideal. Also if possible, have this vertical flue exit from the highest part of the house's roof. I have this setup and love it, sweeping the chimney is simple as I run the brush from the cap all the way into the firebox without any bends to hold me up. I use like the looks of that F3cb and the big glass too.

Kind of irritating that the salesman is quoting you in "after rebate" dollars since your bill will be much higher. I do not believe that anything except the stove can be used towards your refund.

 

[tedzap]

In my search for stoves I found a ivory porcelain F3 stove for about the same money as the matt black one listed above. Do these finishes hold up, or do they stain from the smoke? I do have some white trim around the space (window trim, ceiling speakers, can lights) so it wouldn't be totally out of place.

I also found a F400 in black for less money than the F3 above, but am thinking this may be too much stove?!?!?


Opinions are appreciated!

Thanks,
-Ted

 

[stoveguy2esw]

It seems to me when designing the chimney your goal is achieving the best draft possible... This will result in the easiest fire starting, and the least smoke in the house.

Toward this goal I think the best setup would be to have a top exit on the stove, use double wall connector pipe, have plenty of overall height, and no bends anywhere. A "straight shot up".

Am I correct in this? How much would a rear exit with a 90 degree bend affect this draw? My house was originally heated with a wood furnace with a poor chimney, and I have an aversion to smoke in the house.

Yes, your totally vertical double wall setup is ideal. Also if possible, have this vertical flue exit from the highest part of the house's roof. I have this setup and love it, sweeping the chimney is simple as I run the brush from the cap all the way into the firebox without any bends to hold me up. I use like the looks of that F3cb and the big glass too.

Kind of irritating that the salesman is quoting you in "after rebate" dollars since your bill will be much higher. I do not believe that anything except the stove can be used towards your refund.

from what i understand the flue will be included in the deduction as well as anything else (hearthpad etc...) included in the installation

 

[BrotherBart]

The whole Magilla. Stove, chimney and labor to put it in service are eligible for the tax credit.

 

[tedzap]

That is good news... Does the installer have to have any sort of wood stove installation "credentials"? I have a local carpenter who has installed dozens of these, but I'm not sure if he is a "licensed contractor". I'd choose him (and forego the tax rebate) over the local contractors I am familiar with... at least when it comes to putting a hole in my roof.

 

[tedzap]

A few more comments and another question.

I have about 8 oaks on the ground that we cut down about 18 months ago. They aren't yet split, but are cut into sections. The majority of the sections are right at 18" or slightly over. All of them were 75+ foot tall, so there is a lot.

I was able to swing by a Jotul dealer today and look at the F3 and the F400 stoves. The F3 looks like it will be a pain with "heavy 18 inch" splits.

My question is could I live with the F400 stove? If not, should I split the wood and then chop the splits, or make the cuts first?


Here are the specs:

room size 768sf with 9' ceilings, equivalent to 864sf with an 8' ceiling.
tight construction, good insulation, good windows and doors

F3
-----
supposedly takes up to 18" logs
up 43k btu
up to 1300sf

F400 "castine"
--------------------
takes up to 20" logs
up to 55k btu
up to 1600sf


One option I suppose is that I get the F400 and use it in the new space this winter. Then next year when the cash is a little easier to find move it into the house and get a smaller one for the new space.

Thanks,
-Ted

 

[Wet1]

Given the two, I'd go with the F400. Then again, I still think you're making a mistake by not going with a cat stove... A nice Woodstock or Blaze King can burn longer, lower, and with more consistent heat output throughout the burning cycle.

 

[tedzap]

Some of the feedback I had gotten about a cat stove (from a dealer) sorta made me stop looking at them. In his words "I don't try to sell them to inexperienced wood burners, because they tend to come back unhappy". He talked about how you have to get the the temperature way up there in order to get the cat working properly and then you can scale it back. He also talked about how you can "wipe the cat" if you don't monitor things closely. His words: "They take a lot more attention than a non-cat stove". Maybe he was trying to steer me toward the product he wanted to sell.

can someone give me a rundown on what the additional workload required by a cat stove is?

 

[Bobbin]

Ted, both of our stoves have catalytic combustors, this is standard equipment on Woodstock Soapstone stoves. I have never found them to be "difficult" or require extra fussing. We purchased our first stove in 1991 and in the years since we purchased and installed it we've changed the combustor maybe 3 times, but 2 sticks in my mind.

For us, the cat. means that we cannot burn green wood or use the stove as a disposal for all manner of burnable material since the smoke and ash can coat the cat. and render it ineffective (on the same order as putting leaded gas in a car with a catalytic convertor). We've always been careful about the wood we burn and we don't throw crap in the stove. We've removed the cat. every month/so and cleaned out the ash and reinstalled it. Easy-peasy (5 minutes) and simply part of the routine, like emptying excess ash or sweeping up around the stove.

We start a fire, let the thermometer on the stove top (directly over the cat.) get to 250-300 degrees and then damp the stove down and engage the combustor which forces the smoke up through it instead of allowing it by-pass and vent directly up the flue. In a few minutes the stovetop thermometer begins to rise markedly and the stove is cooking along nicely. The only thing that required some thought initially was remembering to DISengage the cat. and allow the smoke in the stove to vent up and out BEFORE opening the stove door to reload. We made that mistake exactly once. But other than that, there's nothing to using a stove with a catalytic combustor, at least a Woodstock.

It's like anything else you're learning, I suppose; if you're able to read and follow the directions it's not a big deal. You train the good habits and come up with a routine that reinforces them. But the world is full of ding-dongs who are unwilling or unable to do that, and then come back crying and whining that, "it doesn't work right", "this thing is a PITA", "this was a rip-off", etc.. I can understand how cat. stoves could be a real pain for a salesman in a stove shop.

 

[Wet1]

Ted,

This has been covered more times than I care to remember, but the short of it is this. Yes, when the stove is cold you have to let it warm up before you engage the cat. If the cat is engaged at a low temp it will stall. Once you have an established fire, you just disengage the cat, load the wood, then reengage the cat. It's that simple. Cat life is probably about 6 to 10 years. Most manufacturers recommend dusting off the cat every so often, like at the end of each season. It's quick and easy to do. Other than that, there's not much more to it.

The plus side is you get longer, lower (if dialed down), and more consistent burns throughout the burn cycle. Cats are more efficient, meaning you'll reload less and go through less wood season. Read some reviews on the Woodstock and Blaze King stoves here in the review section... I don't think I've ever heard of an unsatisfied owner of either brand, just "glowing" reviews.

BTW, almost all EPA rated stoves are finicky about wet wood, dry wood is pretty much a must for good results in either type.

 

[Bobbin]

I don't know that much about moisture content in wood and we don't have one of those moisture meters, so I can't really answer your question accurately, Cy.. I can tell you that we burn mostly red maple and oak with some other wood tossed in as the trees are taken down. We take smaller trees down ourselves and we split it all ourselves. It's our habit to stack it after it's been split and we cover the tops of the piles. We let it sit and cure for a year/two before using it. We have never had a problem with creosote build up, the sweep has always remarked that the flue is actually quite clean after a season of burning.

We did burn some wood that had seasoned for about 9 mos. last year and it sizzled and snapped when put into the stove so we made sure it was loaded into the stove only after the fire was crankin'. Where do you get one of those meters? it would be interesting to actually know the moisture content in our firewood.

 

[wendell]

You can find them at ebay or Amazon or just Google moisture meter.

 

[wendell]

oops, wrong thread.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Some of the feedback I had gotten about a cat stove (from a dealer) sorta made me stop looking at them. In his words "I don't try to sell them to inexperienced wood burners, because they tend to come back unhappy". He talked about how you have to get the the temperature way up there in order to get the cat working properly and then you can scale it back. He also talked about how you can "wipe the cat" if you don't monitor things closely. His words: "They take a lot more attention than a non-cat stove". Maybe he was trying to steer me toward the product he wanted to sell.

can someone give me a rundown on what the additional workload required by a cat stove is?

essentially , runnnig a cat stove does require a couple more steps than a non-cat or traditional stove as it has a "bypass damper"

when lighting a cat stove, the bypass damper is opened to allow the exhaust to "bypass" (hence the name) the cat allowing the stove to be lit without the restriction of the cat. as the fire builds the cat heats up. once the cat has reached firing temperature (300 to 550F) the bypass is then closed forcing all the smoke through it for reburning. so, shutting down the bypass too soon will not allow the cat to fire , possibly clogging it. also , adding wet wood to a hot fire can shatter a cat. a new user can operate a cat stove especially if a temperature probe to see what cat temps are is used.

personally i dont think they are that much different but fire is my buisness so i get lots of practice.

 

[Todd]

Ted, both of our stoves have catalytic combustors, this is standard equipment on Woodstock Soapstone stoves. I have never found them to be "difficult" or require extra fussing. We purchased our first stove in 1991 and in the years since we purchased and installed it we've changed the combustor maybe 3 times, but 2 sticks in my mind.

For us, the cat. means that we cannot burn green wood or use the stove as a disposal for all manner of burnable material since the smoke and ash can coat the cat. and render it ineffective (on the same order as putting leaded gas in a car with a catalytic convertor). We've always been careful about the wood we burn and we don't throw crap in the stove. We've removed the cat. every month/so and cleaned out the ash and reinstalled it. Easy-peasy (5 minutes) and simply part of the routine, like emptying excess ash or sweeping up around the stove.

We start a fire, let the thermometer on the stove top (directly over the cat.) get to 250-300 degrees and then damp the stove down and engage the combustor which forces the smoke up through it instead of allowing it by-pass and vent directly up the flue. In a few minutes the stovetop thermometer begins to rise markedly and the stove is cooking along nicely. The only thing that required some thought initially was remembering to DISengage the cat. and allow the smoke in the stove to vent up and out BEFORE opening the stove door to reload. We made that mistake exactly once. But other than that, there's nothing to using a stove with a catalytic combustor, at least a Woodstock.

It's like anything else you're learning, I suppose; if you're able to read and follow the directions it's not a big deal. You train the good habits and come up with a routine that reinforces them. But the world is full of ding-dongs who are unwilling or unable to do that, and then come back crying and whining that, "it doesn't work right", "this thing is a PITA", "this was a rip-off", etc.. I can understand how cat. stoves could be a real pain for a salesman in a stove shop.

whats the max moisture content u think u can burn in your catstove?

I was told by Woodstock that 25% and under is a good guide for a cat stove. If it sizzles it's probably a little over that.

 

[rdust]

When I was shopping for my stove every dealer steered me away for a CAT stove. Obviously CAT stoves can work well as can a non CAT stove. I'm not sure if it's the dealer figures most people who buy stoves will just be the occasional burners and feel that the "simplest" stove is the best stove for their customers or what. Almost every dealer I spoke with felt that CAT stoves wouldn't even be around much longer and felt it was an extra piece that wasn't needed anymore due to stove technology advancing over the years. I liked the fireview but believe it or not my wife doesn't like the look of the soapstone stoves...odd I know...

Does anyone know what percentage of stoves made are CAT versus non CAT?

 

[Bobbin]

Interesting reference point to have with respect to moisture content in wood, Todd. We are close to the ocean and the climate here is most definitely, "marine". It's usually on the humid side. Mold, mildew, quickly tarnished silver, pitted chrome, powdery mildew, and all manner of moisture related ills are commonplace. And this year has been a banner year for all of it!

So it makes sense that we season our wood for a solid year, preferably two. We ended up stacking some of the greener wood I mentioned above in the boiler room to hasten the drying. It worked like a charm, too... was good to go in under 3 weeks. That's where I hang dungarees and towels to finish drying when the weather is uncooperative for good air drying. I'm the only person in the neighborhood with a walk in dryer.

 

[tedzap]

just an update, I ended up getting the F3CB. It was last years model, Ivory (apparently not popular around here), and 35% off of last years MSRP. Once I got it home I think the ivory will look great.

Thanks for the input!

 

[Skier76]

Awesome! Post pics when you can.