Clydesdale Insert Not Happy with its performance Please help !!!!

[pjv911]

Wow you guys are replying faster than I can respond! This is great!

Follow up to a few responses:

Yes I have a 3 story home because the basement (1st floor) is above ground level. I have 10' ceilings on the 2nd floor (main floor) and 12' ceilings on the 3rd floor. So, yes the chimney is very tall. It extends about 10' higher than my rooftop. Its possibly less than 40' because im guessing. However its pretty close to my guess.

What I mean by this "My air deflector plates/channels on the insert had large gaps at all seems. I sealed all of them off with steel duct tape" is the blower pushes air around the exterior of the box and the the air is channeled through these ducts which I reffered to as deflector plates or channels.

What I meant by this "The insert is installed with the 5” of finished fascia pulled out and the sides are blocked off with the iron faceplate" is the insert is sticking out about 5" forward of the faceplate. This is how its was designed to be because any further out and it would not mate to the faceplate anymore because it tapers down smaller past the first 5".

Voltage to the blower is 126v and there is no hi-low switch that Ive seen.

The insert doest have a heat sensing switch that turns on the blower at 180 deg. It does come on as it should.

My dealer told me it would easily heat 2000 sq ft. I have not tried any fans to distribute the heat because I dont think it makes enough heat. If I stand at the bottom of my stairwell (see picture) I can just barely feel the temp difference (a little higher) and thats only 10'. I think if I started dispensing the heat out further it would then not be felt anywhere.

 

[Dix]

Are you dealing with Cozy Stove in Rocky Point?

And I still want those grates. I have the same FP set up, with an insert, and my vents are throwing alot of heat !

Pretty common to the area. Older pic, now retiled.

 

[jadm]

One of your pictures showed discoloration on what appears to be your ss liner??? It looks ovalized instead of round. Did installer 'squish' it to run it through your existing chimney?? It should be round.

My first install was botched due to installer cutting corners and ignorance on my part. He didn't want to open damper area in our fireplace by removing firebricks because it is a big hassle. He scrunched the liner in and I didn't have a clue as to what he had done until I had another person come out to address another problem on insert. Second instillation was done right and the discoloration in your picture looks a lot like what was on our piece of squished liner....

 

[pjv911]

My house is very well insulated and all 72 windows have exterior (added) dual pane modern add on's. I could do a little better with the doors because they are not so airtight but they are not terrible.

I honestly feel that 2/3rds of my heat is going up the shoot. This will be my Sunday project. I will install something to block off the passage.
Can someone offer a recommendation on what to buy?

I will also buy a new door seal for the insert. I do believe that the stove will burn hotter if the seal is in place.

What is the normal temp reading on the stove top when its been burning properly for a few good hours?

 

[Dix]

Those vents are original to the fireplace from 1902 and I have no idea where those could be bought. They are actually a pretty cool design because the original firebox/pit is steel lined. The bottom 2 vents draw air around the hot steel walls and the rising air came out hot from the top 2 vents. All 4 are sealed off from the pit or flu so no air from the house is escaping there. They are useless now but do get warm if the insert has been going for over 12 hours.

It was recommended to me on more than one occassion to not seal the heatalator system.

Interior or exterior chimney?

Neighbor ;-)

 

[pjv911]

Yes they did oval that area but its not restricted much if any at all. I just as strong an updraft as anyone could possible ask for. i do however question why that spot is showing pinpointed heat. I know I did have a few fires hotter than recommended but ....

 

[pjv911]

You lost me there. What is a heatalator sytem? Is it the 4 grates with the steel rear liner (the original system)?

How can I tell the difference between interior or exterior chimney?
If you mean is it on an outside wall the answer is yes. However the exterior of the chimney is not exposed to the outdoors until it comes out the 3rd story rooftop. Maybe that makes it an interior type? Yes I see you are in Ridge. We are about 20 miles apart.

the dealer i used is Ashwood. They are in Farmingville. I would not recommend those guys. They offer the worst customer service Ive seen. They actually lied to me before taking my 50% non refundable deposit. I ordered the insert in October 2006. They told me 3-4 weeks. It took till late February for it to come in. One of the guys (kid) in the back told me they were having $ problems and likely paid other bills with my deposit. I was ready to kill someone. I confirmed this when I called Hearthstone to see if there was a back-order. They said no back-order in over a year. Then once they ***** me for $1000 worth of installation (45 minutes) they told me it appears your blower was damaged during transport but don't worry we have them in stock at the store. Well they didn't and it took at least 4 phone calls and a bodily threat (in person) to get my blower ordered. By April I was ready to start burning the 2 cords of wood I bought back in October when the insert was ordered. So in short stay away from those guys. They are bad news.

Kurt

 

[archer292]

I have the same insert from the same dealer. If I could get a load of wood to last more than a few hours I'd be happy. I have been asking them for help since they installed it last Feb. with nothing to show for it as of yet. You should install the door gasket first. The temps you are getting off the stove top are about right at 400. The clydesdale has an outer fasade or cover sort of speak so the temps taken from there are probably 100-150 off the actual top of the insert maybe more. The little box is a reostat, I think it's called, and it will control the speed of your blower. This is what the other users are talking about when they say they are running the blower on high. If you are getting good long burns at the 400 temp on the outer fasade your losing the heat somewhere. They installed mine too and they sealed the top of chimney but did a $#!+ job and had to come back and re do it. Maybe they didn't seal yours. The surround isn't designed to be air tight and the spaces you are talking about are normal. If the top is sealed that doesn't matter much. The insert is definitely too small for your application if you are expecting to heat the whole house at 3000 square feet. I have about 1800 square feet, 2 floors with a wide open plan on the bottom floor and when it's cold I struggle to keep 68 throughout. I can't get a fire to last longer than 4 hrs but thats's my problem. I wish I could tell you more but thats all I got. The block off plate couldn't hurt, that's for sure but I'm not sure it will be a cure all. Good luck, and I wouldn't recomend the dealer either.

 

[jadm]

Yes they did oval that area but its not restricted much if any at all. I just as strong an updraft as anyone could possible ask for. i do however question why that spot is showing pinpointed heat. I know I did have a few fires hotter than recommended but ....

Most of what I know about wood burning I am learning here. I would see if someone with more knowledge than I about distorted ss liners knows more about this than I do.

I do know that my liner, once it was 'ovalized' did not attach to the top of my insert properly which, I was told, could cause problems with CO2 escaping into our house instead of venting up through the liner. It just made me nervous so when we got a new insert I had the new installers fix things so that our liner now has a straight shot up our chimney...

 

[pjv911]

Does anyone have a recommendation for what to use and where to get the block off plate and or thermal insulation? Im hoping to do this job Sunday but have no idea where to start. Even a picture to guide me would help.

Kurt

 

[archer292]

Search this site. There are lots of good reads that will give you the info you"re looking for. I haven't found any place local for the insulation though. PM or post if you find it.

 

[Rudyjr]

Kurt, I do not have the same insert as you but I just installed a Jotul Kennebec two weeks ago with a block off plate. There is a link in my signature to my install with a few pictures. I used materials that are pretty easy to find, you can read about it in my link. The heat output from my stove has been pretty impressive. Good luck, Jim

 

[LeonMSPT]

Ovalized liner to get through an offset is fine, used it twice. The same guy that makes the ovalized liner, makes a round to oval adaptor that will fit the end of the liner, and the insert. Nice tight fit, no leaks. The thing nearly falls through the offset... obviously maintaining an awareness of the orientation of the liner as it goes down the chimney... the wide part of the oval really does need to line up with the wide part of the offset...

A pinpoint area of discoloration indicates a pinpoint area of a leak adjacent to, or upstream from, the area of discoloration. Depending on the size, dispersion, and direction, if it is a concern you might be able to find the leak and plug it.

It will be a typical "flame dispersion" pattern. Narrow at the origin and getting wider as you move away along the pattern. It will be tapered closer to the source of the air, and you'll find actually, that the discoloration will "point" to the source.

 

[pjv911]

Kurt, I do not have the same insert as you but I just installed a Jotul Kennebec two weeks ago with a block off plate. There is a link in my signature to my install with a few pictures. I used materials that are pretty easy to find, you can read about it in my link. The heat output from my stove has been pretty impressive. Good luck, Jim

Thanks for the info

Kurt

 

[pjv911]

Ovalized liner to get through an offset is fine, used it twice. The same guy that makes the ovalized liner, makes a round to oval adaptor that will fit the end of the liner, and the insert. Nice tight fit, no leaks. The thing nearly falls through the offset... obviously maintaining an awareness of the orientation of the liner as it goes down the chimney... the wide part of the oval really does need to line up with the wide part of the offset...

A pinpoint area of discoloration indicates a pinpoint area of a leak adjacent to, or upstream from, the area of discoloration. Depending on the size, dispersion, and direction, if it is a concern you might be able to find the leak and plug it.

It will be a typical "flame dispersion" pattern. Narrow at the origin and getting wider as you move away along the pattern. It will be tapered closer to the source of the air, and you'll find actually, that the discoloration will "point" to the source.

Thanks. I will look for a leak as you describe.

 

[noviceinsertuser]

Hello-
I'm a rookie to the insert world. I recently ordered a Hearthstone Morgan insert to heat a 1100 square foot cape. I am also not happy with its performance. I had it running full blast this weekend and it only warmed the room 3 degrees. The house has new windows and fair insulation (It isn't great but it also isn't horrible). After reading this thread, I called the place where I ordered the stove from and asked about the block off plate and if this would be a solution to the low heat output. They told me that when the chimney was lined, it was capped and therefore this wouldn't solve the problem. I have been burning well seasoned wood in addition to biobricks and experimenting with the air control...to no avail. I'm going to pick up a thermometer today but it has been burning hot. The heat isn't being moved away from the insert. In addition, the blower will kick on but it almost feels like cold air is coming out. I'm really disappointed with the performance. At this point, I'm using oil and wood and here I got the stove to save money (I live in Maine and we have had some COLD days lately)! Any ideas as to why the stove isn't heating the house, is greatly appreciated! Thanks for your help.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Don't know. All things being equal, if you're new to inserts and wood burning generally, you might not be letting it get hot enough. "Hot" is very subjective.

Do you get a build up of soot on the glass? Can you burn it off, or start to burn it off?

Start a fire, let it get coals built up, and let it burn. Turn the blower off. When the soot starts to dissolve, usually at the top of the doors, you're hot. That's a minimum of 525 degrees on the outside of the door.

Now turn the blower on, add wood as needed, generally when there is hot coals an just a bit of wood left in the insert.

The stove up to camp, it was easy to tell when to back off the air. Spit bounced right off the top when you spit on it.

If it won't get that hot:

1. Rotten draft, chimney obstructed, too short, small pipe feeding into large opening, leaking between the insert and the liner....
2. Rotten air supply, something assembled wrong or set up wrong on the insert.

How southern, in Maine. Might swing down that way someday, I'd have a look at it for you.

PM me...

 

[Rudyjr]

Noviceinsertuser, This is the exact same discussion that has been going on for weeks in a Jotul thread. Several users have been told the same thing "cap at top good to go". One user was ready to ditch his stove and buy something else. As a last resort he figured he would give the block off plate a try. He is now very happy with his heat output. Here is a link to that discussion:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/31186/

 

[savageactor7]

deleted

 

[oconnor]

...

The wood I burn is stored inside a large enclosed shed and seasoned at least one year. It should be pretty dried out.....

That is what I thought to, but I have learned that small inserts are very picky eaters - my stove likes wood at 20% moisture, can be started with wood at 25% moisture, and likes 30% wood about as much as I like brussel sprouts (not at all). I can't tell the difference by holding, smelling, or looking at the different woods, but my moisture meter has confirmed what I thought - I had damp wood.

I now cut my splits real small, and let the stove get quite hot on the first load - see my fire starting thread here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/31393/

Bottom line, its either wet wood, poor draft, or heat loss to the environment (i.e. blocking plate) The thing is, they are all related. Wet wood means low burn temps, and hence poor draft.

Dry wood and poor draft means poor combustion. Poor draft can be anything from ashes filling up air intakes (happens on Kennebecs), or leaky gaskets allowing air into the wrong places, and poor burn

Block off plate reduces airflow around liner and increases liner temp by decreasing air circulation cooling the liner, and increases draft.

I would start with wet wood - 5 bucks at the corner store can get you some dry stuff. Burn that, and see what happens.

 

[oconnor]

Hey, pjv911,
...

While others here may argue with me, we use unfaced fibreglass R-19 packed in around the SS liners - TOP & BOTTOM - in ALL of our liner installs - Unless the chimney flue is so deteriorated that Thermix is required...
The only time we completely wrap the liners is when we install a liner in a ZC chimney system...

On this, I will certainly argue. Ther is NO WAY that unfaced fibreglass should be near a 1200F surface, let alone a surface that is spec'd to handle 2000*F (US tests) or 2100*F (Canadian Spec). RudyJr and I had a good hashing out of a similar issue concerning rockwool, and we agreed to disagree, suffice to say that he and many others are happy with rockwool near a liner, and I am not, and it has not been tested at the 2100F temps needed for flue installation testing.

But unfaced fibreglass is certainly not a suitable material for a flue liner.

Perhaps you meant rockwool - it is common practice to use rockwool, but my assertion that it isn't tested to be used in flue liner installations remains, and will certainly be disputed.

Also, I hope you wrap liners whenever you cannot verify that the masonary chimney has the required 2 inch or 1 inch airspace required (this may be what you mean by ZC (Zero Clearance) chimney system)). My signature block has a link to the Chimney Saftey Institute of America and National Fireplace Institutes best practices for liner installs - worth a read for anyone installing a liner, be they pro or DIY.

 

[Rudyjr]

Brent, I suspect quite a few installers use unfaced fiberglass from the ones that I have talked to. I can't say that it is something I would do either. Have you ever installed a block off plate on your stove? I know from a posting a while back you said your installer had put rockwool in as a temporary block off. I keep seeing the same kind of complaints on all of the insert threads about no heat, black glass etc.., When ever you follow them it seems to be the one thing that they have in common. I am sure that moisture in the wood can cause some problems too, but I think this is the one thing most commonly overlooked by installers because it takes too much time.

 

[LeonMSPT]

I'm a little confused, and maybe someone can help me. If the chimney is lined from the insert to the top of the chimney. If the top of the chimney is sealed with a metal plate, with silicone caulking. Where does the air that is going around the insert and up the chimney go? Is there a black hole up there gobbling the warm air up as fast as it can get there?

Just don't get where the air is going. I know heat rises, no doubt about that. Don't mind having warm walls and even the surface of the chimney where it is exposed in places, upstairs. The insert I have will drive you out of the house, 1,500 sf apartment and even down to 10 below zero will hold it at 85 degrees. No block off plate, never was one.

Of course, everybody has got to make a decision about what they want to do. I've seen the blockoff plate kits, and frankly they look like a king sized pain in the hind end. If there is a hurricane blowing around the insert, better get up on the roof and find out why. Might end up with water running down the inside of the chimney between the liner and flu, and out from around the insert if you don't. Should be airtight, locked up.

Not arguing, asking a question.

 

[gpcollen1]

Your manual says the following:

'The surround must be sealed to the fireplace front OR the damper area around the chimney liner must be sealed to prevent room air from entering the chimney cavity of the fireplace.

You need one or the other - and both is just fine - but there needs to be something disconnecting house air from your chimney. Pretty simple really and there is already plenty on block off plates.

I do not know where to install the thermometer or what temps are acceptable - the manufacturer should tell you this. But you do need to know this and monitor your operation according to these. And when not getting enough heat, I think most folks are either not filling the firebox and burning hot enough or using wet wood.

 

[gpcollen1]

I'm a little confused, and maybe someone can help me. If the chimney is lined from the insert to the top of the chimney. If the top of the chimney is sealed with a metal plate, with silicone caulking. Where does the air that is going around the insert and up the chimney go? Is there a black hole up there gobbling the warm air up as fast as it can get there?

Just don't get where the air is going. I know heat rises, no doubt about that. Don't mind having warm walls and even the surface of the chimney where it is exposed in places, upstairs. The insert I have will drive you out of the house, 1,500 sf apartment and even down to 10 below zero will hold it at 85 degrees. No block off plate, never was one.

Of course, everybody has got to make a decision about what they want to do. I've seen the blockoff plate kits, and frankly they look like a king sized pain in the hind end. If there is a hurricane blowing around the insert, better get up on the roof and find out why. Might end up with water running down the inside of the chimney between the liner and flu, and out from around the insert if you don't. Should be airtight, locked up.

Not arguing, asking a question.

Is the pipe sealed to the plate topping the chimney? That is the question b/c most are not. But still not installed according to manufacturer - and codes.