Catalytic vs. Burn Tubes

[savageactor7]

^no so good to go if you have a wife that wears sweaters in July but thanks for the skinny. I require heat and wood is no object.

Which gets hotter a blaze king or NC30...right now we have a qf4300...it's adequate.

 

[Wet1]

Boy I sure wish some CAT owner could steer this thread to those that may want to run a CAT stove for max heat output and how often you would reload if say you wanted to keep a 3k area at 75 when it's 20 outside. Thanks brothers.

Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max heat?

I'm not sure how much more of a user testimonial you need. I'm sure you saw Wolfkiller's thread about his BKK keeping his 2500 sq ft place warm in North Pole Alaska down to -44° F before his central heat kicked in. In fact, it seems the majority of the folks way up north are using the BK and swear by these stoves. If you need more heat than the BKK will throw, you better think long and hard about getting yourself two stoves... As a mater of fact, with 3000 sq ft, you should consider two of the Woodstocks as I suspect two stoves would give better heat distribution.

 

[savageactor7]

Well Wet1 it was wolfkillers post that got me interested again in CATS. I don't know how close you're following this but I addressed that. The trouble is wolfkiller likes long burns my wife requires heat there's a big difference in burning techniques. Thanks for the heads up though.

 

[Highbeam]

Blaze king:

King 1107
Average EPA Test Fuel (Low Burn)
8,600 Btu’s/hr
Average EPA Test Fuel (High Burn)
37,800 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (Low Burn)
8,400 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (High Burn)
47,000 Btu’s/hr

ENglander 30:

Potential of 75,000+ BTU's* when burning seasoned cordwood!

So your wife will like the englander better. You can buy 4-5 englander 30s for the price of one BK.

 

[Todd]

Blaze king:

King 1107
Average EPA Test Fuel (Low Burn)
8,600 Btu’s/hr
Average EPA Test Fuel (High Burn)
37,800 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (Low Burn)
8,400 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (High Burn)
47,000 Btu’s/hr

ENglander 30:

Potential of 75,000+ BTU's* when burning seasoned cordwood!

So your wife will like the englander better. You can buy 4-5 englander 30s for the price of one BK.

But you missed the part of the manual that states the BK can produce up to 90,000 BTU's when feeding the stove continuously on high burn. And in order for the Englander to produce 75,000 it would have to be burned the same way.

 

[Todd]

Boy I sure wish some CAT owner could steer this thread to those that may want to run a CAT stove for max heat output and how often you would reload if say you wanted to keep a 3k area at 75 when it's 20 outside. Thanks brothers.

Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max heat?

Well, I don't have 3000 sq ft but when I need more heat I just turn up the air and reload more often. In the spring/fall season I go for the long 12 low BTU fire, when it gets below zero I give more air and cut the burn time in half or maybe just keep the temp over 400 and add 2 or 3 splits to maintain every few hours. Average winter temps I burn on an 8hr reload schedule, it all depends on the weather and how much heat you want.

The cat does have limits, I think sustained temps over 1700 can cause damage, but that would be hard to do on my stove.

 

[Rockey]

The trouble is wolfkiller likes long burns my wife requires heat

How do you keep 2500 sq ft warm in -44 deg weather without producing MAJOR heat?

 

[North of 60]

I can only comment that I just installed a napolean 1900p non cat , dual burn system. Ive had it running for 5 days/ nights now, and its burning my wood so completely, that I still dont have 1" of ash covering the entire bottom of the stove floor. Before I go to bed, I put 3 logs in it, about 12" long, and in the morning, its ready to refire as needed on the glowing coals. So far im very happy for the $1400 price tag. I do not see me using my homes ineffcient electric heat pump to much in the future. If I save just $300 a yr in heating costs, the stove has payed for itself in less then 5 years and I dont have to worry about replacing cat converters.

It looks like it may take a month of solid burning, to create enough ash that mandates it to be cleaned out of the stove. I can live with that :}

Are you not the one that posted this thread my friend. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/33585/ What you expected, and are looking for is actually what a new CAT stove will do. It will shut the fire down to a smolder. Sounded like you had more worries than replacing a CAT in that thread. :roll:
N of 60

umm..according to another poster, the epa approved woodstove are not made to allow them to shut down quickly....via using the air intake adjustment...


furthermore, i am discussing, in this thread ,how completely my stove is burning the wood I am using....not about shutting it down....

UMMMMM this thread is about CATs and secondary burn tubes. You were commenting about the fuss with CATs. I threw you a hint,
not subtle mind you. I threw you one also in your thread. I think someone has found and explained that hint to you now as I have read the posts.

 

[Highbeam]

Blaze king:

King 1107
Average EPA Test Fuel (Low Burn)
8,600 Btu’s/hr
Average EPA Test Fuel (High Burn)
37,800 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (Low Burn)
8,400 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (High Burn)
47,000 Btu’s/hr

ENglander 30:

Potential of 75,000+ BTU's* when burning seasoned cordwood!

So your wife will like the englander better. You can buy 4-5 englander 30s for the price of one BK.

But you missed the part of the manual that states the BK can produce up to 90,000 BTU's when feeding the stove continuously on high burn. And in order for the Englander to produce 75,000 it would have to be burned the same way.

I saw the 90,000 in one part of the brochure but it has an asterisk and refers you to the specs where the actual specifications list what I cut and pasted for the BK. Seems to me that if you heat up a stove as big as the BK king that you should be getting major btus but it looks like you can't heat it up. Very strange marketing brochure.

I think the PE summit has a 97000 max btu rating out of a firebox about the same size as the englander 30. I wonder how accurate these max btu ratings really are. I don't think I would want to depend on the max anyway, I know I wouldn't.

 

[southland]

What's the secret? Would be good for all of us to know the prices of all of these big cat stoves. The big BK, we know the woodstock price, the buck, the country flame.

I'm not shy, I spent 2049$ on my heritage after tax. Current hearthstone prices are available on Tom's site. They were actually cut just recently.

I didn't want to upset anyone by quoting prices over the forum (I don't know if that's a no-no or not). The price I got on the BKK was around $3130, the 91 was $1850... as I said before, quite a difference. The only thing I would really miss on the BKK is the thermostatic control.

Thanks wet1. It really helps to put a figure to these stoves. Besides the thermostatic primary air the blower CFM is quite high on the BK compared to the 91 which doesn't specify. The countryflame was 600 CFM which is quite a lot.

The buck has a very difficult to remove catalyst package and 3 cats. They describe all sorts of penetrating oil and extra care in the manual. Much harder than the woodstock. The stove is tapered front to back to make it a better insert I'd guess. Looks funny freestanding.

The BK look is growing on me.

I changed the cat in my parents Buck 91 over Christmas (the cat was 8 yrs old). It only has one cat unit, not three. It's not hard at all. You do need a deep socket in step 4. Here are directions cut from the owner's manual.

http://www.buckstove.com/buckfiles/manuals/Buck-Stove-Model-91-Manual-(Rev-10102008).pdf

Yeah, that's way too difficult. Compare that to the woodstock: lift lid, lift out catalyst, put back. No tools, no breaking bolts, no penetrating oil, no warning not to do it in the cold weather, etc.

Surprised that you only found one catalyst. The parts list called out three and the instructions called out the plural form of cans and catalysts in most places. But hey, you actually touched it so I believe you.

I even looked at the dutchwest cat since it is pretty large and those folks have a woodstockish looking cat setup. Though it is harder to get access to.

All of these large cat stoves seem to want an 8" flue.

Attached is an image of the cat from Applied Ceramics web site. While it's one unit, it does have three cells, probably for ease of manufacturing.

Since the model 91 can be used as an insert, removal of the cat from inside the firebox is probably the best design.

I wonder what size a stove has to be to require an 8" instead of 6" flue?

 

[North of 60]

3yr old cat burning 8 to 10 months a year. Pine, spruce and poplar is its only food. It gets a paint brush and vacuum run across it twice a year after lifting out the stainless flame shield that takes 10 seconds. It also has three sections but it is actually one piece.

 

[kksalm]

Wow. This has been very interesting to read. Totally engaging topic with super input. Is it me or does anyone else wish no one would encapsulate in a bluish tinge what has been said before like I hadn't just read it and was incapable of following the thread? These 5 plus pages would be about three and I would have had time to read something else by now. Sorry if I've offended anyone, it's not my intention, it's Friday night, have a great wood warming weekend.
Best regards, kksalm

 

[johnnywarm]

It seems no one likes the 8" on some of the stoves.i'm looking into a cat stove for the cellar,it would be a new install. should i care if its 8" stove or a 6" stove.is 8" pipe better then 6"???

 

[Wet1]

Johnny, I think the reason is because a lot of us already have a 6" liner in our flue. Since you're going to be doing a new install, it's not much of an issue for you. Technically speaking, you shouldn't use a 6" flue if the stove has an 8" collar, unless it's stated okay to do so by the manufacturer. With that said, Wolfkiller mentioned he has a friend running a 6" flue with his BKK and it's working well... although it's not approved to do this.

 

[Wet1]

The trouble is wolfkiller likes long burns my wife requires heat

How do you keep 2500 sq ft warm in -44 deg weather without producing MAJOR heat?

I would have thought this should have been quite obvious as well...

I fail to see how a stove like the BKK can't put out as much, or more btu/hour than the significantly smaller nc-30. Even if they put out even amounts of heat, the larger Bkk should be able to go longer without reloading, should use less fuel, and since it has a thermostatic control, it should require fewer adjustments.

 

[johnnywarm]

Johnny, I think the reason is because a lot of us already have a 6" liner in our flue. Since you're going to be doing a new install, it's not much of an issue for you. Technically speaking, you shouldn't use a 6" flue if the stove has an 8" collar, unless it's stated okay to do so by the manufacturer. With that said, Wolfkiller mentioned he has a friend running a 6" flue with his BKK and it's working well... although it's not approved to do this.

Thanks Wet!

 

[savageactor7]

Just want to thank everyone that answered my specific questions...I sure do like this thread where we can discuss the merits of the 2 different tech's ... it sure is informative.

 

[begreen]

so this means that epa approved cat woodstoves allow the owner the ability to totally shut down the flames within a few minutes...via the air intake adjustment ...while epa approved double burn non cat stoves will not allow the user to totally shut down the flames at all via the same air intake adjustment ?

Precisely.

Although, I don't know that you would be able to COMPLETELY 100% shut it down as in "turn it off", but it will bank down much much more than a non cat epa stove.

To my knowledge, closing the air supply on a Cat stove will not "totally" cut off the air supply.

 

[karri0n]

Thanks BG. That was what i was thinking as well. I don't think the cat would be able to light off in a 100% oxygen starved environment.

 

[Todd]

I know on my stove the air slide will completely shut, but I'm sure air could probably seep in around it, it's not like it has an air tight gasket.

 

[bsruther]

Do any cat stove owners find that building N/S fires is not necessary because of the long burn times? The reason I ask this is, my non-EPA insert burns hot and clean with a N/S fire, but my stove is only 15" deep, which means that some of my wood has to be cut short. Some of the cat stoves aren't very deep, so I just wondered if it made a difference, since cat stoves seem like they don't need a hot burning fire.

 

[Todd]

I think it makes a difference. If you load N/S in a cat you will still get more air flow through the wood and a hotter burn, loading E/W will keep the air towards the front til it burns through the load.