Catalyst vs Non Catalyst

[neumsky]

Not to hi jack this thread but I have a cat vs. non cat question. With my DW cat stove I keep it shut down pretty much most of the time (as required), can you run a non cat the same way? I see where someone said you have to get the stove top up to 1100 degrees before shutting it down, that to me is a really high firebox temp. My intent is to replace the old smoke dragon stove in my unfinished, but insulated, basement (1000 sq.ft., wide open with bare concrete floors with a new EPA stove. I want a robust reasonably priced EPA stove, considering a non cat version but am concerned with having to babysit the darned thing. With the smoke dragon it is just fill it up close 'er down and repeat every 8 hours or so. From what I read here that really doesn't seem possible with the secondary burn types.

Thanks in advance.

Hardrock, even if you could get one of these stoves to 1100 degrees stove top, there would be some very serious issues. That stove would prolly be glowing cherry red. Where the air is shut down it depended on the factors of each individual install. With a tall liner, I can shut mine as far to low as it will go. Some others can also, but pother must leave the air open to suit their set up & needs. The is no "one setting, one size fits all" as all homes, stacks, setups etc are different, performing different, etc. You don't have to baby sit either type stove. The cat needs to reach a temp to engage, the secondary type needs to reach a temp to achieve secondary. Both are easy to operate, so don't let that sway you one way or another. Pick a stove that works for you and meets your wants & needs.
And yes, you can get clean 8,10,12+ burns out of a non cat also.
The unfinished, uninsulated basement is most likely going to act as a heat sink no matter what type stove you buy.
Take your time, make a list of your wants, needs and expectations, and make an informed decision. Good luck.[/quote

@hogwildz...thats some great advice!

 

[Oldhippie]

I think non-cat stoves are less likely to get fouled up if burned improperly and that is a big advantage for the dealer. You really can't damage a non-cat stove by burning wet wood, keeping the air too low and having a smoky fire, etc. You can foul the chimney and not get the most from your stove, but it will only be dirty, not damaged. With a cat stove you can foul up the cat by burning improperly, and the cat may then need replacement. This probably leads to a lot of complaints and so I think dealers prefer non-cat stoves.

If you know what you're doing a cat stove might be easier to use because after the wood is loaded and the stove is up to temp. you can engage the cat, trun down the air and walk away. with my non-cat stove I have to adjust the air a few times during the burn to get peak performance.

I doubt cat stoves are going away any time soon becaue they have some advantages over non-cat stoves.

I have talked to dealers personally who use the "non-cat" point as a selling point of the non-cat stoves. I've heard that discussion more than once, while listening to a sales person in a shop selling a particular stove. This is almost always to a person who is buying their first stove and doesn't have a clue what the differences might be. They're having a hard enough time deciding between Pellets or Wood stoves.

I think the product manufacturers marketing material also causes confusion, as they'll use non-Cat as a selling point to the extent that the uneducated consumer just assumes.. "oh, Cats aren't as good, they have to be replaced every couple of years" ...blah blah blah..

 

[begreen]

There are a lot of sales people that have no experience whatsoever with the competition's product they are dissing. Hipwaders and a good sh!tfilter are good PIP in these circumstances, whether they are selling you a car, computer or woodstove.

 

[neumsky]

That's probably so close to the truth as well as people talking about stuff on here...and just go by what they hear...here. I guess that's not a bad way...just that they don't have the reall experience.

 

[Oldhippie]

There are a lot of sales people that have no experience whatsoever with the competition's product they are dissing. Hipwaders and a good sh!tfilter are good PIP in these circumstances, whether they are selling you a car, computer or woodstove.

What is the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?

The used car salesman knows when he's lying.

 

[Hogwildz]

Not to hi jack this thread but I have a cat vs. non cat question. With my DW cat stove I keep it shut down pretty much most of the time (as required), can you run a non cat the same way? I see where someone said you have to get the stove top up to 1100 degrees before shutting it down, that to me is a really high firebox temp. My intent is to replace the old smoke dragon stove in my unfinished, but insulated, basement (1000 sq.ft., wide open with bare concrete floors with a new EPA stove. I want a robust reasonably priced EPA stove, considering a non cat version but am concerned with having to babysit the darned thing. With the smoke dragon it is just fill it up close 'er down and repeat every 8 hours or so. From what I read here that really doesn't seem possible with the secondary burn types.

Thanks in advance.

Hardrock, even if you could get one of these stoves to 1100 degrees stove top, there would be some very serious issues. That stove would prolly be glowing cherry red. Where the air is shut down it depended on the factors of each individual install. With a tall liner, I can shut mine as far to low as it will go. Some others can also, but pother must leave the air open to suit their set up & needs. The is no "one setting, one size fits all" as all homes, stacks, setups etc are different, performing different, etc. You don't have to baby sit either type stove. The cat needs to reach a temp to engage, the secondary type needs to reach a temp to achieve secondary. Both are easy to operate, so don't let that sway you one way or another. Pick a stove that works for you and meets your wants & needs.
And yes, you can get clean 8,10,12+ burns out of a non cat also.
The unfinished, uninsulated basement is most likely going to act as a heat sink no matter what type stove you buy.
Take your time, make a list of your wants, needs and expectations, and make an informed decision. Good luck.

Your right the basement floors take a day of heat to stabilize, once that point is reached I can run the existing Newmac on low day and night and maintain 60 F. The Newmac is thermostatically controlled and is a cinch to burn with "dry" wood. From what I've read here the major concern with a secondary draft stove is over firing, something I've never been concerned about with either the DW or the Newmac, I'm assuming once a bed of coals is developed in the secondary stove it is not near such a high maintenance unit? By the way the other challenge is the 40 ft. straight up internal masonry chimney. When I disclosed this to the BK folks all I got was "holy cow, good luck with that". I have a strong draft. :coolsmirk:

HR,
The only concerns I had with the Summit is when it would do its own thing whatever I did when I first installed it. The found that the door needed adjustment, as is was leaking at the door gasket. A sure tell all of that is the dark creosote covered glass area(s) where the leak is. One day, I might even fiddle with the air intake lever and secondaries intake, but for now, I am completely at peace with the stove, and have no fear of leaving the house all day, or going to sleep and the thing running away. I did have that fear in the beginning, but that was more new stove owner apprehension. Now I just look for the heat wave waving out the top when I pull up the drive, and smile, knowing I am going to be walking into a nice warm home. That is a simple thing in life that makes my day.
The two type stoves while yes different in how they handle the nasties, are pretty similar in my opinion as in, load it, get it up to desired temp, cut it back and go about your business. I truly believe neither is much of a chore to run. Not like turning a furnace thermostat on/off or up/down, but then again, I ain't sending my hard earned money(in vast amounts) to the middle east. Well not for heating anyways.
The only maintenance in my Summit is cleaning it each season. Which I would do whether cat, or baffle. The firebrick will be replaced in the next few years, mostly due to shoving wood in hard and the damn poker misfiring and hitting brick. Again, my fault. And every stove will need fire brick at one time or another.

40' is a freaking cannon! I know what 27' does, would not want to deal with 40. Especially cleaning from top down such as I do. Don't envy you there. That thing sounds like it could suck your clothes off you if you stood in front of the stove with the door open LOL.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Solar and Wood,
I agree with what you said, however, I don't think that you refuted my point that "more heat goes up the chimney" with a non-cat stove. We have to discern the difference between "burning efficiency," the ability to efficiently turn wood into heat, and "heating efficiency," the ability to throw that heat into a room. How much does an insulated firebox on a non cat stove inhibit the latter?

Who is testing the efficiency of these stoves? Brotherbart posted in a thread on the Progress that he wasn't aware of the EPA labs testing this and no one answered him. So I guess I wonder if the EPA is testing it or an independent.

EPA doesnt do the testing, its all independant labs which are certified by EPA as well as UL for testing. now testing can be done "in house" if the manufacturer has such a facility (as we do) but you cannot use that for your certification as the "internal" lab is not sanctioned(certified) by the EPA or UL. so any data used for advertising and such must have a disclaimer like " determined in "in house" testing" or similar statement.

 

[CodyWayne718]

Agree with the above. They both need tending to get the longest cleanest burn.
Having both i feel the cat needs a bit less tweaking over the cycle of the burn. I think this can be attributed to a cat being able to burn the smoke as low as 500 degrees vs the 1000 for a noncat.

Minus the needs of the user, i find both systems very good and efficent heaters.

This contradicts others saying cat stoves are more picky about extra dry wood. Your going to be able to reach an inside temp of 500 to engage the cat faster than you can reach an inside temp of 1000 to damper the secondary stove down. So if you've got some 30% wood and it takes you 2 hours to get the secondary stove damped down all the way, the load will more than likely be close to gone. If you've only gotta wait half that time to reach half that temp to get the cat engaged an to a low burn you'll have twice as much fuel left to burn if they're both the same size firebox. Right? For the insulation thing, my stove has insulation above the baffles!

 

[roknwoe]

To: Ecolbeck and Hog Wild

You guys are very entertaining! Love it!

At this point, I suggest pistols at 30 paces! (I mean squirt guns).

Better yet, we should move on to "personal attacks" instead of the technical jargon to further en-trench both sides. Such as:

Hog Wild: "get a hair cut and a shave"..."move away from the Nuke plant, your comments suggest you are over-radiated".
"everyone says you are a smart guy...but from your appearance no one would know this!"

Ecolbeck: "you are only posting...because your post count is low and you are trying to upgrade your status on this forum"

Seriously, thanks for the info, it was great!

 

[Stump_Branch]

Agree with the above. They both need tending to get the longest cleanest burn.
Having both i feel the cat needs a bit less tweaking over the cycle of the burn. I think this can be attributed to a cat being able to burn the smoke as low as 500 degrees vs the 1000 for a noncat.

Minus the needs of the user, i find both systems very good and efficent heaters.

This contradicts others saying cat stoves are more picky about extra dry wood. Your going to be able to reach an inside temp of 500 to engage the cat faster than you can reach an inside temp of 1000 to damper the secondary stove down. So if you've got some 30% wood and it takes you 2 hours to get the secondary stove damped down all the way, the load will more than likely be close to gone. If you've only gotta wait half that time to reach half that temp to get the cat engaged an to a low burn you'll have twice as much fuel left to burn if they're both the same size firebox. Right? For the insulation thing, my stove has insulation above the baffles!

Kind of. Neither stove does well with wood that wet. Even the noncat will struggle. Its worse for the cats themselves.
Same load of dry wood the cats are able to burn at a lower rate. The non cats have the higher output advantage.
Personally i like the wider range of the cat. I feel i can control it across the range it has easier. The noncats are great once they are set. I found it takes more tweaking to get that long clean burn.
My goals are a nice heat output for the longest times. Not everones goals are the same.

 

[Monosperma]

1. Here is video of a non-cat with insulation, yes insulation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc79F1pR08&feature=related
2. I acquired a BK KEJ 1101 for the drafty old ranch house, but I failed to get it installed before winter forbade me from opening up the roof to increase the pipe from six to eight inches. So I am getting by with a fireplace and a Home Comfort cook stove (smoke dragon). Talk about a stove that needs babysitting... 63 degrees is a warm house.
3. One day, my BK will need its cat element replaced, and right now they are running $250-300. So there had better be an upside.
4. I have enjoyed reading the debate here since, if I get my way, one fine day the fireplace and its crumbling chimney will be fitted with a modern-engineered stove.

 

[Hogwildz]

1. Here is video of a non-cat with insulation, yes insulation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvc79F1pR08&feature=related
2. I acquired a BK KEJ 1101 for the drafty old ranch house, but I failed to get it installed before winter forbade me from opening up the roof to increase the pipe from six to eight inches. So I am getting by with a fireplace and a Home Comfort cook stove (smoke dragon). Talk about a stove that needs babysitting... 63 degrees is a warm house.
3. One day, my BK will need its cat element replaced, and right now they are running $250-300. So there had better be an upside.
4. I have enjoyed reading the debate here since, if I get my way, one fine day the fireplace and its crumbling chimney will be fitted with a modern-engineered stove.

Your a bit late, nice try though.
Might want to rethink the name.
Good luck

 

[aansorge]

I don't think anyone has adequately answered the OP's original question.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I don't think anyone has adequately answered the OP's original question.

Original Question:

Non-cat stoves are designed to operate at high temperatures (to facilitate clean burning) with the help of an insulated firebox. Therefore, more heat must necessarily be going up the chimney and less out into the room. How then, can they be considered as efficient (in terms of actual heat output into the room) as catalytic stoves?

Non-cat stoves are more efficient when run at high temps than a Cat stove. Cat stoves are more efficient at lower temps than a Non-cat stove.

Some people prefer Cat stoves and others prefer Non-cat stoves. There is no wrong answer. The best stove is the one you like using and heats your home in a manner that you find acceptable. In the end, they are all just big boxes that hold fire and produce heat.

 

[aansorge]

Well, maybe I should have said that no one has adequately answered his questions about how the literature given out from stove manufacturers seem to indicate that they use firebricks to redirect heat back into the firebox to increase efficiency. Doesn't this detract from heat output? I think one poster finally started to get it by indicating that the lower half of the stove is "insulated" with firebrick to increase efficiency and the upper half of the stove is the radiating part of the stove.

I think this is a plausible explanation, no?

 

[SolarAndWood]

Are you running for office Browningbar?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Well, maybe I should have said that no one has adequately answered his questions about how the literature given out from stove manufacturers seem to indicate that they use firebricks to redirect heat back into the firebox to increase efficiency. Doesn't this detract from heat output? I think one poster finally started to get it by indicating that the lower half of the stove is "insulated" with firebrick to increase efficiency and the upper half of the stove is the radiating part of the stove.

I think this is a plausible explanation, no?

The original question had no mention of firebrick in it. There are Cat stoves and Non-cat stove that use firebrick. Just as there are Cat stoves and Non-cat stoves that do not use firebrick.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Are you running for office Browningbar?

Just bringing it back to simplicity. We tend to over-think things at time.

 

[raybonz]

I don't think anyone has adequately answered the OP's original question.

Original Question:

Non-cat stoves are designed to operate at high temperatures (to facilitate clean burning) with the help of an insulated firebox. Therefore, more heat must necessarily be going up the chimney and less out into the room. How then, can they be considered as efficient (in terms of actual heat output into the room) as catalytic stoves?

Non-cat stoves are more efficient when run at high temps than a Cat stove. Cat stoves are more efficient at lower temps than a Non-cat stove.

Some people prefer Cat stoves and others prefer Non-cat stoves. There is no wrong answer. The best stove is the one you like using and heats your home in a manner that you find acceptable. In the end, they are all just big boxes that hold fire and produce heat.

+1 good answer.. Having used a cat stove for a very long time I find that reburn is just as efficient. As for the stack running hotter I would have to agree but I feel this is a good thing in keeping the chimney clean and maintaining a good draft.. Now that I run a non-cat I prefer them over cat stoves for ease of operation and I have not had a single backpuff all winter.. Reburn is much better than I thought it would be and the fireshow adds to the ambiance on a cold night..

Ray

 

[SolarAndWood]

Now that I run a non-cat I prefer them over cat stoves for ease of operation and I have not had a single backpuff all winter.

I don't miss the backpuffs or PITA operation of my previous substandard cat design either. I'm glad I didn't give up on cat technology though.

 

[rdust]

I don't miss the backpuffs or PITA operation of my previous substandard cat design either. I'm glad I didn't give up on cat technology though.

I'm glad I listened to the "stories" by all of you with these alien made stoves! I'm not saying it's the last stove I'll ever buy since I'd love to drive a couple other stoves but it'll be heating this place for a while I'm sure.

 

[Monosperma]

Your a bit late, nice try though.
Might want to rethink the name.
Good luck

Ouch! Does someone need a hug?

 

[BrotherBart]

Cat stoves. Pffftt.

Carry on.

 

[SolarAndWood]

I'm glad I listened to the "stories" by all of you with these alien made stoves!

You can thank N60 for my story. I was done with cat stoves until I read his tall tales about the BK.