Catalyst vs Non Catalyst

[Stump_Branch]

Agree with the above. They both need tending to get the longest cleanest burn.
Having both i feel the cat needs a bit less tweaking over the cycle of the burn. I think this can be attributed to a cat being able to burn the smoke as low as 500 degrees vs the 1000 for a noncat.

Minus the needs of the user, i find both systems very good and efficent heaters.

 

[SolarAndWood]

In my experience, if you are trying for to eek out the longest slowest burn possible, both cat and non cat stoves require some amount of periodic attention. the amount of attention depends on the stove and the quality of wood being burned. I used to have a cat stove which was oversized for the house and I tried to run it at as low a temp as possible. Sometimes however, the catalyst would flame out, requiring the stove to be brought back up to temp.

That was my experience with my previous cat stoves. The BK is set it and forget it with dry wood and usually has no flame and no smoke.

If you are using sub par wood, which I also do, you need to be a bit more careful to get it going good before you turn it down. Even then, burning less than dry wood is problematic unless at a reasonably high burn rate. Not talking cut yesterday and tossed in the stove today, but split over the previous Winter and Spring. I doubt it would deal with what most sell as seasoned without spending another year in the stacks.

 

[neumsky]

Being this has turned into a big discussion...Just outa curiousity...what are you seeing being sold at the stores more...cats or non cats... and than to go further...I wonder why that is. I'm seeing Non Cats being more prevalent in our area. Is the cat going to phase itself out? One store owner told me...the cats are not selling like the non cats are! Thanx Jeff

 

[SolarAndWood]

Non cats almost exclusively here. Cat stoves need dry wood to operate properly and not have complaints. My stove was a demo return and the firebox was full of creosote when I got it. The complaint was they couldn't get any heat out of the stove.

 

[Wood Duck]

I think non-cat stoves are less likely to get fouled up if burned improperly and that is a big advantage for the dealer. You really can't damage a non-cat stove by burning wet wood, keeping the air too low and having a smoky fire, etc. You can foul the chimney and not get the most from your stove, but it will only be dirty, not damaged. With a cat stove you can foul up the cat by burning improperly, and the cat may then need replacement. This probably leads to a lot of complaints and so I think dealers prefer non-cat stoves.

If you know what you're doing a cat stove might be easier to use because after the wood is loaded and the stove is up to temp. you can engage the cat, trun down the air and walk away. with my non-cat stove I have to adjust the air a few times during the burn to get peak performance.

I doubt cat stoves are going away any time soon becaue they have some advantages over non-cat stoves.

 

[Todd]

I have 3 different cat stove dealers in this area, Blaze King, VC, and Energy King but they mostly push non cats when you get talking to them. I don't think cats will go away any time soon, there may not be a huge market for them but there is enough intrest to keep them going.

 

[Stump_Branch]

We see mostly non cats. The cat stoves we do see would be the 2 in 1 VCs, and a few dutchwests.

I believe thats its easier and cheaper to make a non cat. Materials used, engineering of the system etc. I believe make most cat stoves come in at higher price points than the comparable non cat stove.

I hope they dont phase them out, i love the range of heat output it gives.

 

[neumsky]

The cat stoves I see right now around here egdutchwest) are selling cheaper here than same size non-cats(cubic ft). It's almost as tho they want to get rid of them. And some stores don't even want to carry them anymore. Hmmm. The reason I know this is because all the shopping I've been doing. I'm not so sure it is'nt global? That's why I'm curious. As well as I'm sure ya'll are.

 

[KodiakII]

I don't know what they go for, but I would imagine the prospects of having to pay for a replacement cat would put quite a few people off also.

 

[Hardrockmaple]

There are lots more non-cats around here than there are those with. Very few BK's and I know of no WoodStocks. The VC dealer is pushing their new 2-1 stoves hard. Secondary burn stoves seem to be the norm. I'd have no other than a cat stove to use as my primary heat source. I just may go get that heavily discounted DW 2461 this week.

 

[OldVet66]

I have had a Firelight 600 cat. and am currently using a Firelight 600 with the secondary burn air tubes. I miss the top load and larger capacity of the cat. stove, but I have to say that the current stove is a better all around stove. When I get it up to 400 degrees and close the air down, if I have nice dry wood in it, I get a blue flame secondary burn. Not quite as good with moister wood, but either way I can still fill it in the morning and have coals that will light it right up in the evening on less wood than the cat. It is also a lot less work.

 

[neumsky]

Well...I consider at this point in time of winter to still be in the higher priced range of the season. The 2461(large) is selling for 1650.00 & the 2460(small) is going for 1450.00. That is a coupala hundred cheaper than the equivilent non cats. It is a beautiful cast. And heavy! The problem I've seen with them is the jointery. They seem to be sloppily put together.

 

[Stump_Branch]

I have a soft spot in my heart for the DW, im not sure they are the best to use as an average or example of other cat stoves.
Completly my opinion though.

 

[leeave96]

My view is - is that it is more expensive to manufacture a cat stove than a non-cat stove, else we'd see the opposite in stores.

Bill

 

[begreen]

Starting to smell like there is a dead horse in the house. Merging with the other concurrent annual thread on the same topic.

 

[Stump_Branch]

Oh but dead horses and trying to convince others of opposite views is just sooo much fun.

Reminds me of the clash between an unstopable force and an immovable object.

 

[neumsky]

Absolutely...especially if were in the market! That's why when you look at all your signatures...not too many of you stayed with the one you first purchased. So your all not too sure either haha.

 

[raybonz]

Absolutely...especially if were in the market! That's why when you look at all your signatures...not too many of you stayed with the one you first purchased. So your all not too sure either haha.

I had my 1st one for around 23 years and some parts weren't available anymore so I decided to replace the stove.. I did sell it and did good on the deal so no complaints here.. BTW have you installed your Super 27 and how do you like it? Very nice looking stove..

Ray

 

[neumsky]

Absolutely...especially if were in the market! That's why when you look at all your signatures...not too many of you stayed with the one you first purchased. So your all not too sure either haha.

I had my 1st one for around 23 years and some parts weren't available anymore so I decided to replace the stove.. I did sell it and did good on the deal so no complaints here.. BTW have you installed your Super 27 and how do you like it? Very nice looking stove..

Ray

No Ray...unfortunately...I still have to get piping...which as you all know is as much as the STOVE! OOOFTA!

 

[Hardrockmaple]

Absolutely...especially if were in the market! That's why when you look at all your signatures...not too many of you stayed with the one you first purchased. So your all not too sure either haha.

My 15 year old DW 2460 is still used as the main level heater. It took me 3 years to really get the hang of it. *If* I replace it, there will be a new DW 2461 sitting there. I think the reason many switch stoves is because we get the itch to figure out another stove. That is the case for me. I'm considering replacing a 20+ year old smoke dragon in my basement. I've used it for the coldest weeks of the year for all these years, maybe 4 weeks per year at most. Does it need to be replaced... no, do I want to play with one of the new secondary burn type stoves... yes. Call it the evolution of wood stove burners. ;-)

 

[neumsky]

Don't let your wife read this... Kinda like the seven year itch? haha.

 

[eclecticcottage]

Thankyou JohnB, that makes sense. Here's another couple of questions: why bother to preheat secondary air or any combustion air for that matter? What are some other book titles?

Not sure if it's what you're talking about, but Lopi has a little diagram of how their stoves work, and they mention the preheated air is for the glass wash system on their stoves-basically, to help keep the glass clean like a self cleaning oven. I am guessing there is no way to "seperate" the preheated air wash air from the regular secondary air, so it is all preheated by default.

 

[Hogwildz]

Not to hi jack this thread but I have a cat vs. non cat question. With my DW cat stove I keep it shut down pretty much most of the time (as required), can you run a non cat the same way? I see where someone said you have to get the stove top up to 1100 degrees before shutting it down, that to me is a really high firebox temp. My intent is to replace the old smoke dragon stove in my unfinished, but insulated, basement (1000 sq.ft., wide open with bare concrete floors with a new EPA stove. I want a robust reasonably priced EPA stove, considering a non cat version but am concerned with having to babysit the darned thing. With the smoke dragon it is just fill it up close 'er down and repeat every 8 hours or so. From what I read here that really doesn't seem possible with the secondary burn types.

Thanks in advance.

Hardrock, even if you could get one of these stoves to 1100 degrees stove top, there would be some very serious issues. That stove would prolly be glowing cherry red. Where the air is shut down it depended on the factors of each individual install. With a tall liner, I can shut mine as far to low as it will go. Some others can also, but pother must leave the air open to suit their set up & needs. The is no "one setting, one size fits all" as all homes, stacks, setups etc are different, performing different, etc. You don't have to baby sit either type stove. The cat needs to reach a temp to engage, the secondary type needs to reach a temp to achieve secondary. Both are easy to operate, so don't let that sway you one way or another. Pick a stove that works for you and meets your wants & needs.
And yes, you can get clean 8,10,12+ burns out of a non cat also.
The unfinished, uninsulated basement is most likely going to act as a heat sink no matter what type stove you buy.
Take your time, make a list of your wants, needs and expectations, and make an informed decision. Good luck.

 

[HotCoals]

I think he was talking about inside temps..not stove top.
I think 1100f inside would be about 550F stove top?

 

[Hardrockmaple]

Not to hi jack this thread but I have a cat vs. non cat question. With my DW cat stove I keep it shut down pretty much most of the time (as required), can you run a non cat the same way? I see where someone said you have to get the stove top up to 1100 degrees before shutting it down, that to me is a really high firebox temp. My intent is to replace the old smoke dragon stove in my unfinished, but insulated, basement (1000 sq.ft., wide open with bare concrete floors with a new EPA stove. I want a robust reasonably priced EPA stove, considering a non cat version but am concerned with having to babysit the darned thing. With the smoke dragon it is just fill it up close 'er down and repeat every 8 hours or so. From what I read here that really doesn't seem possible with the secondary burn types.

Thanks in advance.

Hardrock, even if you could get one of these stoves to 1100 degrees stove top, there would be some very serious issues. That stove would prolly be glowing cherry red. Where the air is shut down it depended on the factors of each individual install. With a tall liner, I can shut mine as far to low as it will go. Some others can also, but pother must leave the air open to suit their set up & needs. The is no "one setting, one size fits all" as all homes, stacks, setups etc are different, performing different, etc. You don't have to baby sit either type stove. The cat needs to reach a temp to engage, the secondary type needs to reach a temp to achieve secondary. Both are easy to operate, so don't let that sway you one way or another. Pick a stove that works for you and meets your wants & needs.
And yes, you can get clean 8,10,12+ burns out of a non cat also.
The unfinished, uninsulated basement is most likely going to act as a heat sink no matter what type stove you buy.
Take your time, make a list of your wants, needs and expectations, and make an informed decision. Good luck.

Your right the basement floors take a day of heat to stabilize, once that point is reached I can run the existing Newmac on low day and night and maintain 60 F. The Newmac is thermostatically controlled and is a cinch to burn with "dry" wood. From what I've read here the major concern with a secondary draft stove is over firing, something I've never been concerned about with either the DW or the Newmac, I'm assuming once a bed of coals is developed in the secondary stove it is not near such a high maintenance unit? By the way the other challenge is the 40 ft. straight up internal masonry chimney. When I disclosed this to the BK folks all I got was "holy cow, good luck with that". I have a strong draft. :coolsmirk: