Gooserider said:
It's true, you don't "need" it. But once you try it, you'll want it. I was a dedicated fireplace griller, but this thing is so damn simple and easy and perfectly designed, you can't help but love it.
CAT vs Down Draft in Top Load Stoves
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It's true, you don't "need" it. But once you try it, you'll want it. I was a dedicated fireplace griller, but this thing is so damn simple and easy and perfectly designed, you can't help but love it.
I think the Harman grill is designed to take the heat of a wood stove.
As for gimick, nothing is better grilling over an open fire when it is -20 outside and the whole neighborhood is drooling over the smell coming out of your stack. After your done just leave the grill on for around 5 mins a little scraping with the handle attachment and you are good to go.
As for gimick, nothing is better grilling over an open fire when it is -20 outside and the whole neighborhood is drooling over the smell coming out of your stack. After your done just leave the grill on for around 5 mins a little scraping with the handle attachment and you are good to go.
Gadget said:
There is no reason to avoid Downdraft Stoves due to the fact that they need to be hotter in order to start reburn.Yes they do but once reburn is achieved you can turn the primary air way down where your wood is hardly burning and most of your heat is generated by burning smoke. They get a extraordinarily long burn time this way.
trump said:
Absolutely true. The only drawback is in shoulder season, when you don't need or want a long burn. For that reason, as I just mentioned in another thread, I might be better served (at least in terms of efficiency) by a cat stove for over half of my burning season. Part of that is from running a medium sized stove in a small house. When the cold hits for real my stove will be happy.
branchburner said:
Eventually i might try a Cat just to see how they perform ,but in my case where i burn alot of waste wood ,lumber torn out of houses i remodel,i am afraid to risk getting a stray piece of treated or painted wood in there and ruining the Cat. I am also very intruiged by those wood gas boilers.
branchburner said:
I see you have a Harman Oakwood. My husband was looking at the TL300(he wants a top load -only) and after I read in another thread about the material in the Firedome system being very easy to harm I started researching other stoves and found the Quadrafire Isle Royale, but I am not convinced this is for us. We do burn good seasoned wood and I really don't mind if the house gets hot in warmer days. so my question to you is how do you find maintaining the Harman, is it touchy and you have to replace the material in the Firedome? I read you need to clean the holes in it quite frequently and actually clean the whole thing once a year, what is your experience or anyone else who has the Harman TL300 or Oakwood?
If i can be of some help on the TL-300. Im in my second season of burning with my TL-300 .
While it is true the downdraft stoves have to get hot before the secondary burn will ignite,once its established you can turn the primary air all the way down to where very liittle wood is actually burning and mosty smoke and wood gasses are generating the heat. I would guess about 15000 to 20,000 btus at the lowest setting.Once my afterburn begins it sustains itself until all the smoke and wood gas in the wood is consumed no matter what air setting you use after it light.s
Also i I don,t think the Combustion package in th harman is any more fragile than the catalyst in a cat stove.
All iv done as far as cleaning is to vacuum out the air supply holes once or twice a month. The fragile stuff is only accessible with a dis assembly of the combustion package from the rear of the stove. As long as the stove is working correctly i see no need to do any further maintenance.
While it is true the downdraft stoves have to get hot before the secondary burn will ignite,once its established you can turn the primary air all the way down to where very liittle wood is actually burning and mosty smoke and wood gasses are generating the heat. I would guess about 15000 to 20,000 btus at the lowest setting.Once my afterburn begins it sustains itself until all the smoke and wood gas in the wood is consumed no matter what air setting you use after it light.s
Also i I don,t think the Combustion package in th harman is any more fragile than the catalyst in a cat stove.
All iv done as far as cleaning is to vacuum out the air supply holes once or twice a month. The fragile stuff is only accessible with a dis assembly of the combustion package from the rear of the stove. As long as the stove is working correctly i see no need to do any further maintenance.
I'll be curious to see how much ash builds up this season. I cleaned mine after one season, but that's not to say it wouldn't have performed perfectly if I had done nothing. It's too early for me to say with any real confidence.
Like Trump, I'm only in my second year, which of course doesn't stop me from acting like some kind of expert. I'm no kind of expert. But I'm going by my limited experience, and by the prior owner of my stove, and the limited experience of a few other Oakwood owners who have posted here. I have heard no long-term reports, but we've had one poster with some ash buildup over several years that required removal and cleaning of the CP, and two posters with damage/decay over several years that required removal and replacement of the CP. Is this typical? I have no idea. But it indicates that you may need to use some additional care with the operation of a downdraft stove that you wouldn't need with burn tubes.
That said, the Harman is a great stove and I'm even happier this winter with the way my stove is running. It likes to run long and hot, and to be fully loaded, so it purrs along best when it's below 30 out for my house to be in my comfort range. Any warmer and I have to let the fire go out, or burn small fires without the secondary. Down in the teens I do need to open it up a bit and push it, but its been keeping up really well in the cold snaps. It's doing 24/7 duty - no oil burner at all so far!
Like Trump, I'm only in my second year, which of course doesn't stop me from acting like some kind of expert. I'm no kind of expert. But I'm going by my limited experience, and by the prior owner of my stove, and the limited experience of a few other Oakwood owners who have posted here. I have heard no long-term reports, but we've had one poster with some ash buildup over several years that required removal and cleaning of the CP, and two posters with damage/decay over several years that required removal and replacement of the CP. Is this typical? I have no idea. But it indicates that you may need to use some additional care with the operation of a downdraft stove that you wouldn't need with burn tubes.
That said, the Harman is a great stove and I'm even happier this winter with the way my stove is running. It likes to run long and hot, and to be fully loaded, so it purrs along best when it's below 30 out for my house to be in my comfort range. Any warmer and I have to let the fire go out, or burn small fires without the secondary. Down in the teens I do need to open it up a bit and push it, but its been keeping up really well in the cold snaps. It's doing 24/7 duty - no oil burner at all so far!
Im wondering if a little ash build up on the refractory material of the TL-300 might not be a bad thing as ash itself acts as a insulator. I know that thing gets a lot of heat cuz whenever i get a chance to see it in operation it is glowing cherry red.
Not sure what the temp of ceramic has to be to glow red.
Not sure what the temp of ceramic has to be to glow red.
I've got an Encore NC. As mentioned, to get it to burn really clean, you need to run it very hot. This has the tendency to lead it into overfire, which I've been doing with mine without being entirely aware of it. That said, now that I am, it's happy to burn at lower temps, it just spits out a lot of smoke doing it. It's also absorbed all the high temp abuse without any obvious damage.
I can't say I'd recommend it. I wish I had been reading these forums before I bought it. However, my current plan is to just continue to use it for the next few years until the sting of the purchase recedes (the tax credit helps there) and then replace it with either a Fireview or a Hearthstone Homestead.
I can't say I'd recommend it. I wish I had been reading these forums before I bought it. However, my current plan is to just continue to use it for the next few years until the sting of the purchase recedes (the tax credit helps there) and then replace it with either a Fireview or a Hearthstone Homestead.
Backwoods Savage said:
Boy are you ever correct. I owned a 1979 VC Resolute which I was very happy with. I wanted to upgrade to a newer, more efficient and cleaner burning stove and came within a wisker of buying another VC based on how well the old one worked. I happened to find this Forum and read the reviews.I am now the happy owner of a Fireview. All I can say is thank goodness for the internet or I would have made a big mistake.
Counterpoint, I am NOT happy w/ my VC Encore Cat... Purchased used through Elk, one of our former members, who in retrospect seemed to have some ulterior motivations in pushing VC as hard as he did...
My wood is all split and stacked in a woodshed for at least 18 months, if not longer. It is mixed hardwoods, primarily oak and maple.
I'm connected by a stainless tee to a 25' high flue w/ a 6" ss liner, with about 7 feet of the chimney above the roof.
I like the top load - it is very convenient to be able to put the wood in that way as opposed to the side load of our old smoke dragon. I do get some smoke when loading, but not a lot. The ashpan system is wonderful, especially since I have two pans, which lets me swap them out in a few seconds and then take the full one out later at my convenience. I do wish the pans held more, but that isn't a big deal.
It does seem reasonably efficient in it's wood consumption, and It does a reasonably good job at heating our house down to about 20°F or so. Below that the gas furnace starts coming on to supplement it.
BUT....
I get LOTS of creosote. I would estimate enough to pretty much fill a 5 gallon bucket each time I clean in the spring.
I see a lot of visible smoke most of the time, except when the fire is in the coal stage, or close to it - which doesn't say much for it since pretty much any stove will burn clean at that stage.
The refractory package is falling apart on me - though I've done my best to glue it back together with furnace cement and stainless safety wire.
The adjustment screw for the bypass flap closing has frozen in place, and as best I can tell, the flap can't be removed w/o totally dismantling the stove.
I replaced the cat with one from "Stove combustors" and far as I can tell it doesn't do a whole lot...
Gooserider
My wood is all split and stacked in a woodshed for at least 18 months, if not longer. It is mixed hardwoods, primarily oak and maple.
I'm connected by a stainless tee to a 25' high flue w/ a 6" ss liner, with about 7 feet of the chimney above the roof.
I like the top load - it is very convenient to be able to put the wood in that way as opposed to the side load of our old smoke dragon. I do get some smoke when loading, but not a lot. The ashpan system is wonderful, especially since I have two pans, which lets me swap them out in a few seconds and then take the full one out later at my convenience. I do wish the pans held more, but that isn't a big deal.
It does seem reasonably efficient in it's wood consumption, and It does a reasonably good job at heating our house down to about 20°F or so. Below that the gas furnace starts coming on to supplement it.
BUT....
I get LOTS of creosote. I would estimate enough to pretty much fill a 5 gallon bucket each time I clean in the spring.
I see a lot of visible smoke most of the time, except when the fire is in the coal stage, or close to it - which doesn't say much for it since pretty much any stove will burn clean at that stage.
The refractory package is falling apart on me - though I've done my best to glue it back together with furnace cement and stainless safety wire.
The adjustment screw for the bypass flap closing has frozen in place, and as best I can tell, the flap can't be removed w/o totally dismantling the stove.
I replaced the cat with one from "Stove combustors" and far as I can tell it doesn't do a whole lot...
Gooserider
Todd said:
Well the GF has been out of work for the last several months, and she is the primary source of income, (Know anybody looking for a senior level software engineer w/ 30+ years in the industry) so we haven't been spending any money that we don't have to... The other thing is that I think I'd rather spend any significant money on a new wood boiler setup and get something that would really heat the entire house well... If I do that, then the VC, which is a pretty stove, would become mostly decorative, and if it only gets used a few times a year, then it's shortcomings become pretty much of a non-problem...
Gooserider
Gooserider said:
Sorry to hear that, I too was recently laid off for the second time in the last 2 years. Sounds like you have a good plan, good luck.
trump said:
You may be right, a little may do no harm, or even some good. It is when the buildup impedes the airflow, which I would guess takes 2-3 years (just a guess). Then it seems you may be prone to smoke problems in the house with the bypass closed.
I have a Lopi Leyden and a Med Dutchwest, both downdraft stoves, and the difference is night and day, I believe much of the downdraft negativity is generated by the VC line, the Lopi is a far superior burning stove than the dutchwest. That being said, I wouldn't buy any toploader. I love the fact that there is no ash mess, they hold so much more wood and are so easy to load, but I find that no matter how carefull you are, you are prone to your house smelling like smoke with a toploader than not. I would also stay away from the downdrafts, the vc line doesn't work, the lopi (although is a great stove) leaves a bit to be desired with that ash drawer setup, and althought I don't have expericence with the oakwood I know that all downdrafts have a BORING FIRE QUALITY and will SOOT UP THE GLASS!! If you want to really sit in front of the fire and watch a good set of secondarys through clean glass go for the Isle (if its got to be a topload)...If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, go for a side load Fairview, Jotul or similar quality. My next stove, my 6th..will be my last, it will be a Fairview, I just got to get rich enough to buy a 3rd stove in 3 years...
I inherited a 10 year old Encore Cat, and was nervous after finding this site - especially reading about Goose' experience. It was a fight at first getting this stove to work right, but I can say that now I am happy with it. I did have to re-gasket the griddle and ash door and I replaced the cat and refractory access panel, but after all that it burns quite nice and predictable.
What I have found:
- The stove is certainly not for everyone - you do have to do a lot of maintenance and on an older one expect to spend $ in parts to keep it in shape.
- The bypass gasket/adjustment, fireback gasket and refractory box need to be kept in tip top shape or else smoke will leak past the cat and dirty the flue. Im lucky in that my stove apears to have been fairly well cared for by the previous owners so these are not a big issue for me (yet).
- gaskets and door adjustments are critical. The dollar bill test should want to rip the bill in half. Make sure the ash door is VERY tight. I also had better luck with a rope gasket on the griddle than the recommended wire mesh style.
-A catalyst temp probe is a must in my mind. If your wood is not ideal its easy to hit overfire temps on the cat when the griddle is still well within "normal" I use the cat temp as my primary operating guide
- Long low overnight burns will cloud the glass. No way around this as all the heat is in the back in the catalyst chamber. But so far for me dirty galss does not equal dirty flue. The cat is doing its job and burning that off. The occasional hot burn and wet towel/ash wipe takes care of the galss
- Long low burns are also boring if you like watching the fire. Again all the action is in the back.
- Top loading is not an issue as long as you A. prime the draft by opening bypass and air control for 5min first to heat it up good and B. work quickly. The only time I get even a little smoke in the house is when I'm filling to the top for an overnight.
-Be careful with the ash door. You can open it to clean out without the stove cold, but if you do shovel the coals to the side of the firebox first. If not you get the blast furnace effect.
If I was starting from scratch Im not sure I would pick this stove but now that I have it figured out I like it and will keep it. From what I have heard about the NC model though I wouldnt touch that one with a 10ft pole.
Just my $0.02
-Jeremy
What I have found:
- The stove is certainly not for everyone - you do have to do a lot of maintenance and on an older one expect to spend $ in parts to keep it in shape.
- The bypass gasket/adjustment, fireback gasket and refractory box need to be kept in tip top shape or else smoke will leak past the cat and dirty the flue. Im lucky in that my stove apears to have been fairly well cared for by the previous owners so these are not a big issue for me (yet).
- gaskets and door adjustments are critical. The dollar bill test should want to rip the bill in half. Make sure the ash door is VERY tight. I also had better luck with a rope gasket on the griddle than the recommended wire mesh style.
-A catalyst temp probe is a must in my mind. If your wood is not ideal its easy to hit overfire temps on the cat when the griddle is still well within "normal" I use the cat temp as my primary operating guide
- Long low overnight burns will cloud the glass. No way around this as all the heat is in the back in the catalyst chamber. But so far for me dirty galss does not equal dirty flue. The cat is doing its job and burning that off. The occasional hot burn and wet towel/ash wipe takes care of the galss
- Long low burns are also boring if you like watching the fire. Again all the action is in the back.
- Top loading is not an issue as long as you A. prime the draft by opening bypass and air control for 5min first to heat it up good and B. work quickly. The only time I get even a little smoke in the house is when I'm filling to the top for an overnight.
-Be careful with the ash door. You can open it to clean out without the stove cold, but if you do shovel the coals to the side of the firebox first. If not you get the blast furnace effect.
If I was starting from scratch Im not sure I would pick this stove but now that I have it figured out I like it and will keep it. From what I have heard about the NC model though I wouldnt touch that one with a 10ft pole.
Just my $0.02
-Jeremy
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