C.L. example of Alaskan wood dealers knowing that no one knows what dry wood is...

[okotoks guy]

I guess the advice I would give to those who hate the cost of delivered,seasoned,split firewood
is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a
firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!

I was being Sarcastic.

What some people charge for firewood is also determined by what typical wages are for the area. Where I live,
a guy capable of cutting,splitting,lifting firewood can go out and get a job for at least $18 an hour no problem.
I would also assume that in Alasaka there are not too many guys capable of heavy, physical work,working for
$7.00 an hour.It always amazes me that the people who like to bragg "I work hard for my money" expect others
to work for peanuts! The firewood thing is not my sole income,I could not make a living at it.
My wife's uncle is one of these " Cordwood should be delivered and stacked for no more than a hundred bucks" types.
I told him to deliver and stack a cord of wood to my house and I would pay Double........$200. He said I'm not doing
that kind of work for $200. But he expects somebody else too!!
The people purchasing wood from me like to have a fire once or twice a week and want wood that is going to burn
well.They don't mind paying top prices for top product.They are most definitely not heating with purchased firewood
in order to offset heating costs. In my area,nobody can offset heating costs by having wood in any form delivered to
their homes.It's that simple.In order to save money,the work must be done by the burner.That means cutting down
their own trees and hauling the wood with their own equipment.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Firewood is a funny thing, it's value can vary so much, not only from region to region, but from person to person, especially on a personal level.

Take me, I couldn't see myself paying more than $75 for a cord of wood because I get my wood for free (minus overhead) and I enjoy the work on the few occasions I get out to do it. If I did ever have to pay for wood for some reason, I'm pretty fussy, it would all have to be seasoned, and all cut just to the right length for my stove, no log length, and no odd sizes. I keep my chainsaw cutting to a minimum in my yard, it's just not big enough to store and process large quantities of wood. (max price I'd pay for wood -$75)

On the other hand, if I was to try and make a business out of it, I would want at least $400 per cord (cut and delivered but not split). I well know the work involved and the wear and tear on equipment involved. It's hard work and you need equipment that not everybody has. (eg. truck, chainsaw, etc..) (min. price I'd sell wood $400)

Now if I knew someone was in urgent need, and was trying to keep their family warm with firewood but was in short supply, I'd surely give it away. (min - max price FREE)

To me it's kind of like buying fish vs. fishing. How much would you pay in the supermarket for enough trout for one meal? How much would you pay for a weekend fishing when you bring home a enough trout for one meal.

 

[AKSHADOW]

If a wood dealer is cutting on private land, then thy are paying the landowner for the lumber, if they are cutting on public land then I'm sure that's a more profitable way to go, but they still have to pay for equipment, wages, transportation costs. Not to mention that their overhead is more if everything really is more expensive in alaska. I'm not say I would be happy to pay what you pay for wood, I wouldn't do it. But if Joe schmoe can sell logs for $4500 dollars a load then what right does anyone else have to tell him to sell it cheaper? If he is willing to negotiate then do that if not then walk away. Profit is not a dirty word and every business has to be profitable to survive. And it's not like anyone has a gun to your head forcing you to heat with bought firewood. If you want to discuss economics let's do it, but what's the first thing they teach in economics? Supply and demand. Supply and demand set a markets price. In different areas different markets are outrageously priced compared to the areas. Firewood is reasonable where I live, but if I want to move and buy a house in my area I will have to shell out around $400,000 to buy a newer 4 bedroom house on like half an acre, sounds ridiculous to me, so i am not moving. But I am not going to tell the guy selling the house that he should be ashamed of himself for getting the most money he can for his product. You compared the wood industry to the oil industry which I think isn't apples to apples ( international business with thousands of employees compared to a small business) but think about what happened when the government tried to ignore the market and tried to control gas prices, long lines for gas, could only buy gas on certain days, gas stations with no gas. How many people will still sell firewood if they are told to cut their price in half? Try getting good wood then.

Apparently you have not read a single thing I have except what you think I am whining about. Which I assure you, is not my purpose. First of all, to clear the air, I own 4 acres of heavily wooded land and do not need to rely on others for my fuel. Secondly, when I said private land I meant that most own their land, clear it to sell wood, then sell the property. Otherwise they are cutting own publicly owned land. Third, supply and demand? Have you not understood that it is exactly that which is my point I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to coax out of this debate. There is PLENTY of supply. Just because there is a high demand does not warrant an artificially high price. This is known as GOUGING. What has happened is firewood dealers are not seasoning their wood for one purpose:

1. If unseasoned wood is the common item then it goes for a given price.

2. It follows that seasoned wood is then a scarcity.

Conclusion *Thus seasoned wood should go for a higher price, which in turn is rather unreasonable relative to the rest of the United States the differing respective states' wood supplies.

The problem with this reasoning is that waiting does not create any more work for a wood dealer. IT JUST SITS THERE. If anything, seasoning is the easiest thing to do. So, dealers get greedy, don't wait to season there wood and just flood the market with wet wood, other dealers follow suit and the few that take the time to season wood charge astronomical prices. So not only are the prices way too high for wet wood, but the same for dry wood - if you can find it.

 

[JustWood]

Been in the firewood biz for 23 or 24 years.
1. There is no such thing as price gouging. This is a made up term by those who feel entitled.
2. There is no such thing as greed. This is a made up term by the have nots about the haves.

My wood price goes up $50/cord the minute snow is in the forecast.
My wood price goes up the following year after a whiney wood customer complains about snow in the load or dirt on the wood or too much bark (ya, that's a good one I've heard a thousand times).
I sell green and seasoned and advertise accordingLEE.
I actually do have a blacklist of doodew head wood customers. I also keep a card file that I refer to every time a phone order is made. Notes like complainer,fussy,don't like ruts in yard, no hickory, bounced check,don't like ANY snow in load,maple only,careful on drive,watch overhead wires,mean dog,horny wife, etc.
50% of my customers are a royal pain in the ass and I don't think it's different anywhere else.
If I have a customer that never complains, always has his drive plowed and gives me a level place to dump he gets a discount. Whiners and those that make it hard to deliver get charged MAX.
I charge maximum $ that the market will allow. I'm well established and know the ropes so I can do that AND get big $. If you don't like it go over to the thermostat and turn it up. Then call the gas company and complain to them OR beter yet , go cut your own dam wood!

The guy in AK did nothing other than tell a BS story. He went fishin' for trout and got bass.
As with any product and being a consumer, get educated and know what you're buying so you don't have to blame anyone else.

 

[krex1010]

If a wood dealer is cutting on private land, then thy are paying the landowner for the lumber, if they are cutting on public land then I'm sure that's a more profitable way to go, but they still have to pay for equipment, wages, transportation costs. Not to mention that their overhead is more if everything really is more expensive in alaska. I'm not say I would be happy to pay what you pay for wood, I wouldn't do it. But if Joe schmoe can sell logs for $4500 dollars a load then what right does anyone else have to tell him to sell it cheaper? If he is willing to negotiate then do that if not then walk away. Profit is not a dirty word and every business has to be profitable to survive. And it's not like anyone has a gun to your head forcing you to heat with bought firewood. If you want to discuss economics let's do it, but what's the first thing they teach in economics? Supply and demand. Supply and demand set a markets price. In different areas different markets are outrageously priced compared to the areas. Firewood is reasonable where I live, but if I want to move and buy a house in my area I will have to shell out around $400,000 to buy a newer 4 bedroom house on like half an acre, sounds ridiculous to me, so i am not moving. But I am not going to tell the guy selling the house that he should be ashamed of himself for getting the most money he can for his product. You compared the wood industry to the oil industry which I think isn't apples to apples ( international business with thousands of employees compared to a small business) but think about what happened when the government tried to ignore the market and tried to control gas prices, long lines for gas, could only buy gas on certain days, gas stations with no gas. How many people will still sell firewood if they are told to cut their price in half? Try getting good wood then.

Apparently you have not read a single thing I have except what you think I am whining about. Which I assure you, is not my purpose. First of all, to clear the air, I own 4 acres of heavily wooded land and do not need to rely on others for my fuel. Secondly, when I said private land I meant that most own their land, clear it to sell wood, then sell the property. Otherwise they are cutting own publicly owned land. Third, supply and demand? Have you not understood that it is exactly that which is my point I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to coax out of this debate. There is PLENTY of supply. Just because there is a high demand does not warrant an artificially high price. This is known as GOUGING. What has happened is firewood dealers are not seasoning their wood for one purpose:

1. If unseasoned wood is the common item then it goes for a given price.

2. It follows that seasoned wood is then a scarcity.

Conclusion *Thus seasoned wood should go for a higher price, which in turn is rather unreasonable relative to the rest of the United States the differing respective states' wood supplies.

The problem with this reasoning is that waiting does not create any more work for a wood dealer. IT JUST SITS THERE. If anything, seasoning is the easiest thing to do. So, dealers get greedy, don't wait to season there wood and just flood the market with wet wood, other dealers follow suit and the few that take the time to season wood charge astronomical prices. So not only are the prices way too high for wet wood, but the same for dry wood - if you can find it.

i disagree that letting wood sit and season for a year is not costing a dealer. in business time=money, i'm sure you have heard of that. think about what you are saying from a dealer's perspective. you expect someone to invest the time and effort to split the amount of wood that he projects to sell in a year, then let that wood sit for a year to season, in the meantime ignoring the fact that there are people willing to buy his green wood for a profitable price. i am sorry but that is ridiculous! there is absolutely nothing wrong with a dealer selling green firewood (as long as they are honest about when it was split) green wood is a sellable commodity, not waiting for it to season for a year isn't being greedy, it is simply taking advantage of available bussiness. there is nothing wrong with buying green wood either, the buyer just has to season it themself. you expect a dealer to sit on wood for a year before they sell it, why cant a consumer stop sitting on his wallet and buy his wood a year in advance?

i also disagree that the prices up there are artificially high, you say there is plenty of supply, but seasoned wood is scarce. how can that be? if the supply is exceeding demand then i would expect that alot of wood goes unsold every year, so that would mean that seasoned wood should be available every year because last years green wood wasn't sold. you live in a cold region, it would take an enormous supply of firewood to exceed demand, and the only way prices will drop in any market is if supply exceeds demand. there may be plenty of wood/trees up there but trees do not equal firewood, you burn wood and it sounds like you process your own wood so you know what it takes to turn a tree into firewood, and in your climate how much time out of the year is it really reasonable to expect people to be outside processing firewood?
i think that the supply is shorter than you think, which equals high prices. it sucks but it is the reality. by the way i hope you arent taking anything i say personally, i am enjoying our conversation here, nothing wrong with a healthy debate right?

 

[smokinj]

Just goes to show you the firewood jockey is not the glam we all think it is! lol

 

[krex1010]

Been in the firewood biz for 23 or 24 years.
1. There is no such thing as price gouging. This is a made up term by those who feel entitled.
2. There is no such thing as greed. This is a made up term by the have nots about the haves.

My wood price goes up $50/cord the minute snow is in the forecast.
My wood price goes up the following year after a whiney wood customer complains about snow in the load or dirt on the wood or too much bark (ya, that's a good one I've heard a thousand times).
I sell green and seasoned and advertise accordingLEE.
I actually do have a blacklist of doodew head wood customers. I also keep a card file that I refer to every time a phone order is made. Notes like complainer,fussy,don't like ruts in yard, no hickory, bounced check,don't like ANY snow in load,maple only,careful on drive,watch overhead wires,mean dog,horny wife, etc.
50% of my customers are a royal pain in the ass and I don't think it's different anywhere else.
If I have a customer that never complains, always has his drive plowed and gives me a level place to dump he gets a discount. Whiners and those that make it hard to deliver get charged MAX.
I charge maximum $ that the market will allow. I'm well established and know the ropes so I can do that AND get big $. If you don't like it go over to the thermostat and turn it up. Then call the gas company and complain to them OR beter yet , go cut your own dam wood!

The guy in AK did nothing other than tell a BS story. He went fishin' for trout and got bass.
As with any product and being a consumer, get educated and know what you're buying so you don't have to blame anyone else.

He went fishin' for trout and got bass
love that line bro, i may use that sometime.
i worked for a tree service all through high school and college, we split wood as a side gig, so i have a basic understanding of the dealer side of the story. we rarely had the time to keep enough wood split for it to properly season, so we sold green wood. we told our customers it was not seasoned and we always recomended that they buy well in advance so the wood had time to season before it was burnt. if they made the decision to buy and burn wood in november that was split in september then that was their call, but they were all well aware of the state of the wood when they bought it. i feel we did right by our customers by being up front about the wood being green and you let the customer decide if they want it or not. and our prices were what they were, we werent cheap, if people didnt like our price they could get it from someone else. we sold firewood to make money, not because we enjoy splitting wood and heating other peoples homes.

 

[okotoks guy]

In my experience,the people who complain the most about wood prices are the same people
that don't want to do the work themselves.These guys want their firewood delivered for a certain
price and when they can't find anybody who will do it for that price they call it price gouging!
I have a neighbor and we were both going outside to shovel our driveways. He commented about
"the nerve of some kid wanting $20 to shovel the driveway." The same kid came to my place and
I politely declined and mentioned that I needed the exercise more than he did! Anyways, the neighbor
told me that he offered the kid $5 and the kid refused. I asked the neighbor if he'd be interested in
shovelling my driveway for $5.Answer:No Way It's funny that he expected some 14 or 15 year old
kid to work for an amount that he would not work for.
I work with a guy who figures that he should be able to pick up a few acres of waterfront property
with a nice cabin on it within 2 or 3 hours of Calgary for "25-30 grand." The place he described sells
for about half a million around here! Guess what he figures..............A-Holes price gouging!I asked him
that if he had a property like that if he would sell it for $25000..............Of course not;he would keep it
in the family.
At the end of the day,if you don't like the price of something,don't buy it. But don't expect to be able
to name your price or complain about somebody's price for work or a service you don't want to do.

 

[rdust]

I'm always amused when people complain about firewood pricing. If you don't find the pricing fair move on to the next guy. I process almost all of my own wood(bought a cord or so from Dennis last year) and for me I could never sell firewood. It takes way too much time and effort for me to be able to put a price on it. Now if someone needed help sure I'd sell them some for a very fair price or just give it to them. Other than that my wood will stay in my yard.

 

[krex1010]

Neely jersey...... Nice.

And right on with what you said

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

As with any product and being a consumer, get educated and know what you're buying so you don't have to blame anyone else.

I don't think my wood guy gets enough $$$, all things considered. For just the delivery end of it he braves my driveway and my mean dog. No horny wife though ;-)
He brings the splitter all the way across town and takes care of that for me for small fee. There's no middle man and much of my money stays right here in H-ville NC. I've never seen a wood guy driving a Mercedes. Usually some old F150.

 

[Mcbride]

Any business or person for that matter wants to flip stock as fast as possible, thats how they make money.
It does not matter if its a car dealer, grocery store, hardware, clothing, or firewood.

The people that think its not hard on the wood dealer to hold onto wood for a year or so and not sell any, until its seasoned, as yourself this.
If you start a business, would you be happy if it only had a lot of costs, and never made a dime for a year or more?
Or if you started a new job, would you be pleased if the boss said, we will starting paying you in a year from now, but work hard starting now.

I did not think so.

 

[project240]

In my experience,the people who complain the most about wood prices are the same people
that don't want to do the work themselves.

Completely disagree with this, at least from my point of view. I'm extremely willing to go out and do the work to collect/process my own wood. Being my first year though, I'm in a position where I would like to be able to buy seasoned wood and not take a line of credit to do so (lol).

I was lucky and found a tree service selling wood that has been split/seasoned for 9 months. Paid $175 for a cord and made 2 trips to pick up the wood myself.

 

[okotoks guy]

When I lived in Northern Ontario,firewood was easy pickings. We could go out to the cottage
this time of year and get at least 2 years worth of logs in a weekend;no problem. We would take
the snow machine to a few of the islands that were only 500 or so yards away and cut all we wanted.
I'm talking Sugar Maple,Yellow Birch,White Birch etc. We would have 1 falling and cutting to whatever
length the sled could handle for weight and 1 guy chaining up the logs and dragging them back. If someone
back then wanted a cords' worth of rounds we would have probably traded for a case of beer! Man,how things
have changed now that I'm in Alberta.

 

[project240]

Haha so true. As I said before, I'm very jealous hearing about some of the guys down south and all their readily available oak, ash, maple, etc.
My goal is to first build a large woodshed and collect about 10 cords this spring/summer from the arborist... maybe more if I can get.... At least then I know I'll have nothing to complain about.

 

[okotoks guy]

Haha so true. As I said before, I'm very jealous hearing about some of the guys down south and all their readily available oak, ash, maple, etc.
My goal is to first build a large woodshed and collect about 10 cords this spring/summer from the arborist... maybe more if I can get.... At least then I know I'll have nothing to complain about.

I sent a PM about some firewood you can come pick up for free if you want it.
Let me know if you got it.

 

[krex1010]

Here is something to think about for the folks complaining about the price of seasoned wood. Cognac is another product that gets better with some aging, what costs more? A 3 year old cognac or a 20 year old cognac? The 20 year product is just sitting in a cellar doing nothing for that time, right? But the 20 year cognac is a superior product so it costs more, alot more. So why shouldn't wood that takes about 1.5 years to make cost more than wood that takes half a year to make. The problem is that alot of people who want to heat with wood go into it thinking it will be a cheap way to heat, and that is a mistake. Ready to use heating fuel is costly. Whether it is gas or oil or firewood. Heating with wood can be very cheap from a money standpoint but only if you put the time and effort to make your own wood, and that takes a major commitment of time and effort! How much does it cost to buy a years worth of hearing oil or gas? It's alot of money! Firewood is a heating fuel too! Why would anyone expect to pay alot less for a years worth of wood? I understand the frustration that some people have when they think they are going to beat the system and heat their house for peanuts and then they find out that buying firewood is not drastically cheaper than buying other fuels. But unfortunately the line of thinking that wood heat=cheap heat is flawed.

 

[Mcbride]

Here is something to think about for the folks complaining about the price of seasoned wood. Cognac is another product that gets better with some aging, what costs more? A 3 year old cognac or a 20 year old cognac? The 20 year product is just sitting in a cellar doing nothing for that time, right? But the 20 year cognac is a superior product so it costs more, alot more. So why shouldn't wood that takes about 1.5 years to make cost more than wood that takes half a year to make. The problem is that alot of people who want to heat with wood go into it thinking it will be a cheap way to heat, and that is a mistake. Ready to use heating fuel is costly. Whether it is gas or oil or firewood. Heating with wood can be very cheap from a money standpoint but only if you put the time and effort to make your own wood, and that takes a major commitment of time and effort! How much does it cost to buy a years worth of hearing oil or gas? It's alot of money! Firewood is a heating fuel too! Why would anyone expect to pay alot less for a years worth of wood? I understand the frustration that some people have when they think they are going to beat the system and heat their house for peanuts and then they find out that buying firewood is not drastically cheaper than buying other fuels. But unfortunately the line of thinking that wood heat=cheap heat is flawed.

Well said krex.

What i find most interesting is the people that complain about the price of a liter of gas, but they will pay twice that for a liter of water, or 4 times as much for a little cup of some coffee or latte at starbucks.
I can make coffee at home for about 2% what a place like starbucks charges, and to fill and take my own water bottle from my house is free.

But if selling wood was really so lucrative, why would those that think this way, not start their own business selling wood, and make a fortune.

Someone asked why i paid $1,032 out the door price for my newer husqvarna saw. My reply was simple, quality costs money, and to me its worth it. I could have bought smaller, or lesser quality, but i chose to pay for the saw i really wanted instead.
When cutting with it, i have no doubt its worth every penny, as it starts easy, runs flawlessly, and cuts way faster than most of thesaws my friends and family have in comparison.
So it saves me time, energy, and frustration.

 

[smokinj]

Here is something to think about for the folks complaining about the price of seasoned wood. Cognac is another product that gets better with some aging, what costs more? A 3 year old cognac or a 20 year old cognac? The 20 year product is just sitting in a cellar doing nothing for that time, right? But the 20 year cognac is a superior product so it costs more, alot more. So why shouldn't wood that takes about 1.5 years to make cost more than wood that takes half a year to make. The problem is that alot of people who want to heat with wood go into it thinking it will be a cheap way to heat, and that is a mistake. Ready to use heating fuel is costly. Whether it is gas or oil or firewood. Heating with wood can be very cheap from a money standpoint but only if you put the time and effort to make your own wood, and that takes a major commitment of time and effort! How much does it cost to buy a years worth of hearing oil or gas? It's alot of money! Firewood is a heating fuel too! Why would anyone expect to pay alot less for a years worth of wood? I understand the frustration that some people have when they think they are going to beat the system and heat their house for peanuts and then they find out that buying firewood is not drastically cheaper than buying other fuels. But unfortunately the line of thinking that wood heat=cheap heat is flawed.

Well said krex.

What i find most interesting is the people that complain about the price of a liter of gas, but they will pay twice that for a liter of water, or 4 times as much for a little cup of some coffee or latte at starbucks.
I can make coffee at home for about 2% what a place like starbucks charges, and to fill and take my own water bottle from my house is free.

But if selling wood was really so lucrative, why would those that think this way, not start their own business selling wood, and make a fortune.

Someone asked why i paid $1,032 out the door price for my newer husqvarna saw. My reply was simple, quality costs money, and to me its worth it. I could have bought smaller, or lesser quality, but i chose to pay for the saw i really wanted instead.
When cutting with it, i have no doubt its worth every penny, as it starts easy, runs flawlessly, and cuts way faster than most of thesaws my friends and family have in comparison.
So it saves me time, energy, and frustration.

390 No one should get cold around You!

 

[AKSHADOW]

It is tragically humorous that some find fault in others who are dissatisfied with a state of affairs that effects everyone - but mostly, it is disheartening. The attitude that some of the close-minded individuals on this forum who have replied is precisely the attitude we should be moving away from. "Buy it, move along, and quit yer bitchin," is not good enough for me. That is not what we should be about. Yeah I get it, everyone has their freedoms right? The seller has to make a living too right? If a buyer is too lazy to process their own wood is it not also lazy for the seller to put wet wood on the market instead of taking the time (and the responsibility) to make wood available that is not a danger to the wood burner and the environment? Let's be honest, I would say that the typical wood purchaser does not season the green wood they buy from dealers. I reiterate "typical". Of course there are those who are physically or logistically incapable of getting wood by their own means but for some reason have the luxury of being able to season purchased wood. Most buy wood to burn, they need it then and now. If they didn't, they would be taking the time to process it themselves. So yes, there is a relationship of responsibilty between the buyer and seller. Commonly, wet wood that is sold is also burnt in the same state it was sold in. I am sure there are all sorts of exceptions but I don't believe that the contrary is the case. While there isn't a quantifiable way to determine this, there will probably be others who plead the reverse incessantly.

Also, there is an environmental responsibility to this issue that has not been addressed. The buy and sell circle of wet wood is adding to quite a large problem - air quality. In Fairbanks, we very poor air quality, to the point that breathing unfiltered air may be hazardous to your health. This is not due to overpopulation, or industrial negligence. Rather, it is due largely to our geographical location. Fairbanks is located in a valley, and thus because of our extreme temperatures (anywhere from -10 to -50) we a lot of ice fog. Ice fog is air pollutant that doesn't dissipate into the atmosphere like it normally would. It hangs around lower levels and causes poor air quality. The borough government has gone to an effort trying to attack one factor of this problem which is inefficient heating devices. They offer a rebate for people who switch out older non-EPA units for new EPA units. Unfortunately they do not address (but how could they) improper burning of wet wood. Obviously this is a regional issue so many in the lower 48 do not understand or care. But why should they right? It doesn't effect them, it must not matter. Check following link broken link removed to http://co.fairbanks.ak.us/airquality/)

Sure, the retort by the opposition will be, "Well then it's the buyers problem, they should season it." Maybe so, but as I have said, most need it then and now. Should we wait a year while our gasoline seasons at the gas pump before we drive? Of course the response to this is then, "wood burning is different, it is not for the person who needs instant gratification." The problem with this is that our entire society has evolved into one which thrives on instant gratification. Is this right? No, but it is the case.

krex1010, I applaud you for having as you put it, "a healthy debate". Others who say in more or less words, "quite whining...you whiner," should really learn that a proper debate is more constructive to the purpose of community, this forum, and our country's stability in general. Krex, you have almost won me over. All of your points seem to be valid, I don't find fault in them. It is all but for one aspect that is not convinced. I don't think that most dealers just all of the sudden quit their jobs and have to sell wood on the spot to make money. Following this, it shouldn't be unrealistic for them to prepare their product stock before making it available to the public. If they simply prepared their stock before going into full swing, I propose that they would make more money in the end as more customers would want to purchase from them as well as being able to offer product that was, maybe not cheaper but at least the same price as wet wood does currently. If most dealers would follow this suit both ends of market would benefit.

Is this proposal unreasonable? I don't believe so. It should also be understood that my qualm is not with the price of wood; it is that dry wood should cost the same as wet wood does, respective to current interior Alaskan prices. I hypothesize that if the wood dealing community took it upon themselves to realize that with a unified effort, they could offer a better product that would benefit both parties. All without any upfront cost to themselves. Note that "upfront" means UPFRONT. I understand the logic of time=money. Yes, I went to grade school too.

This is all theoretical, probably not practical. Reason being is that the entirety of the wood BURNING community would also have to take a hiatus from purchasing wood to accomplish what I have proposed. So as to my principles that I have stated - it is again a shared responsibility between buyer and seller. Of course, this kind of action would be incredibly difficult to pull off - near impossible. But, it is at least, enjoyable to myself to theorize about ways in which things could be better for all of us. Theory is the first step to change. However, I apologize to all of the "here and now" people who don't care about change. My glorified whining is obviously of no importance, and would be sooner welcomed to be extinguished.

 

[Rockey]

I cannot for the life of me understand how you hold the seller(for selling wet wood) as equally or more responsible than the consumer for burning the wet wood. It is the onus of the CONSUMER to use it responisibly.

Would you fault a market for selling fresh fish to a consumer that didnt properly prepare and cook his fish and got sick? If he ate it raw should the seller be held responsible. This bordering on ludicrous.

No one is being forced to buy wet wood. You have the option to buy it in advance and season it yourself, or process your own firewood, or heat with another source. This isnt rocket surgery

 

[krex1010]

AKShadow
I think you and I just have different opinions on this subject, which is fine. Some people look at things realistically and some idealistically and even though people of each train of thought likely won't ever agree on certain things, the world needs both types of people to keep things in check. And it's nice to have a good debate with someone that doesn't end up degenerating into insults and name calling. I'll be looking for you in other threads brother, looking forward doing this again! Stay warm up there.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Here is something else for AKshadow to think about. Storing firewood is no simple task, yes it JUST SITS THERE once all the work is done, but lets look at the math for a second.
I don't know what AK's income is, but lets say he earns a modest $30,000 a year. Now for a firewood dealer to make a modest income like that how much firewood would he need to cut and store a year ahead? To earn $30,000 he would probably have to make an extra 1/3 of that for overhead, so lets round it out to $40,000 gross income. Lets say he is going to sell his wood for $200 per cord, how many cord will he have to cut and sit on for a year? 40,000 / 200 = 200. So that is 200 cords of wood he would have to cut and stack and wait for a whole year minimum (two years if its' oak) before he can see any profit from all that work. Think about how long it takes you (by yourself) to process a cord of wood and multiply that by 200. You can't figure any help into that because this equation only takes one persons income into account.
But wait! All firewood dealers are greedy right? So none of them would be happy with a modest annual income of $30,000, these greedy %^&$* would want to earn at least $50,000 a year. So 50,000 + 1/3 = $66,666 gross income. $66,666 / 200 = 333. So to earn $50,000 they would have to cut, split, and sit on 333 cords of wood for a year before seeing any income from it.

Just for some perspective, I process about 5 cord a year for personal use, in another 24 years I'll be 75, if I live that long I might process another 120 cords of firewood in the rest of my life.

The logistics of storing that amount of wood and having it JUST SIT THERE for a year are overwhelming. I doubt even Quads and Dennis, (and I'll throw Zapny in there), together have that much wood JUST SITTING AROUND. Sure it can be done, but probably not by one person, you are probably going to need a crew and equipment and that means more overhead, and that means you are going to have to cut (and store) even more wood.

The long and the short of it is that it would cost money to store that much wood, the other fact is if a wood seller was to invest the time and money (and that's what it would take, an investment) into storing that much wood, the hope would be that he would see a larger return on that investment. That would mean charging more for seasoned wood than you would if you sold it green, and most "buyers" would not want to pay that extra money, they would either buy green wood from you at a reduced price, or if you refused to sell them green wood they would simply buy from someone else who would sell them green wood at a lower price. So this brings it back to the consumer driven market again, everybody wants the lowest price, and in the world of firewood this generally means buying green wood.
So what happens to your investment when no one wants to buy it at it's premium value??? I'll tell you what happens, it JUST SITS THERE!

Of course the math above is purely hypothetical, I have never sold firewood, but I can't be too far off with those figures. Any firewood dealers out there that feel like correcting my math feel free to do so.

 

[Rockey]

You are correct in that we live in a quick fix "instant gratification" world. I'm not going to go into how we got this way, but its true. We do live in that world. Its how you see going about correcting this problem that is misguided. As a consumer you must realize that there are definite advantages and disadvantages to paying more for some pruducts. It usually boils down to quality. If I start a construction business and buy all my tools from Harbor Freight vs (Dewalt, Fein, Milwaukee, insert a quality namebrand) and expect the Harbor Freight tools to last as long with all else being equal then i would be crazy. The disadvantage is that it would cost more upfront. The advantage would be savings in the long run from projects finished on time, better quality, less frequent replacement and upkeep.

There is a reason why Harbor Freight (Chicago Electric) line is less expensive upfront. Its in the quality. Everyone wants a $28.00/hr but less and less people are willing to buy their tools/eqpt. etc from a manufacturer that pays $28.00/hr.

Wood is no different. There is a huge quality difference between wet wood and dry wood and it should be reflected in the price. You will never get me to believe that people in Alaska, thats right Alaska, dont know the difference in quality between wet wood and dry wood. IF you move from another state to Alaska and ask anyone which one burns better I bet 9 out of 10 people will give you the right answer. The people that continue to burn wet wood are the ones that are serious procrastinators they will always find the wet wood. They decided that they will make the wet wood work. Its not ignorance, just a bad decision.

 

[JustWood]

[quote author="Carbon_Liberator" date="1292023544"]Here is something else for AKshadow to think about. Storing firewood is no simple task, yes it JUST SITS THERE once all the work is done, but lets look at the math for a second.
I don't know what AK's income is, but lets say he earns a modest $30,000 a year. Now for a firewood dealer to make a modest income like that how much firewood would he need to cut and store a year ahead? To earn $30,000 he would probably have to make an extra 1/3 of that for overhead, so lets round it out to $40,000 gross income. Lets say he is going to sell his wood for $200 per cord, how many cord will he have to cut and sit on for a year? 40,000 / 200 = 200. So that is 200 cords of wood he would have to cut and stack at wait for a whole year minimum (two years if its' oak) before he can see any profit from all that work. Think about how long it takes you (by yourself) to process a cord of wood and multiply that by 200. You can't figure any help into that because this equation only takes one persons income into account.
But wait! All firewood dealers are greedy right? So none of them would be happy with a modest annual income of $30,000, these greedy %^&$* would want to earn at least $50,000 a year. So 50,000 + 1/3 = $66,666 gross income. $66,666 / 200 = 333. So to earn $50,000 they would have to cut, split, and sit on 333 cords of wood for a year before seeing any income from it.

Just for some perspective, I process about 5 cord a year for personal use, in another 24 years I'll be 75, if I live that long I might process another 120 cords of firewood in the rest of my life.

The logistics of storing that amount of wood and having it JUST SIT THERE for a year are overwhelming. I doubt even Quads and Dennis, (and I'll throw Zapny in there), together have that much wood JUST SITTING AROUND. Sure it can be done, but probably not by one person, you are probably going to need a crew and equipment and that means more overhead, and that means you are going to have to cut (and store) even more wood.

The long and the short of it is that it would cost money to store that much wood, the other fact is if a wood seller was to invest the time and money (and that's what it would take, an investment) into storing that much wood, the hope would be that he would see a larger return on that investment. That would mean charging more for seasoned wood than you would if you sold it green, and most "buyers" would not want to pay that extra money, they would either buy green wood from you at a reduced price, or if you refused to sell them green wood they would simply buy from someone else who would sell them green wood at a lower price. So this brings it back to the consumer driven market again, everybody wants the lowest price, and in the world of firewood this generally means buying green wood.
So what happens to your investment when no one wants to buy it at it's premium value??? I'll tell you what happens, it JUST SITS THERE!

Of course the math above is purely hypothetical, I have never sold firewood, but I can't be too far off with those figures. Any firewood dealers out there that feel like correcting my math feel free to do so.[/quote

Did said firewood dude get his wood for free or did he pay for it.
Wood take alot of acreage to work up 333 cord yearly.